Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 14:56     Subject: Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I’m not surprised that more students are viewing higher education as vocational training, due to the high cost of a diploma. Kids are feeling pressured to major in lucrative fields vs ones that fit their interests or personality.

Many jobs of the future probably haven’t even been invented yet, so in my opinion, a liberal arts education at the undergraduate level is valuable in teaching students how to learn and adapt. I recognize that my view is in the minority now.


I'm with you that liberal arts is definitely the best way to educate a well-rounded and adaptable human, but I rather doubt the whole jobs of the future line. Haven't we been hearing that for decades now? And just about the only "job of the future" that's showed up is social media influencer or manager (ugh). In fact many future proof jobs are the jobs that have been around for literally millenia. Food still needs to be grown. Animals still need to be raised. Things like that.


Cybersecurity, data analytics (big data), web developers, online commerce related jobs, mobile app development, streaming media technologies, online privacy related tech/jobs.

There are a lot of new jobs
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 14:21     Subject: Re:Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
Anonymous wrote:Even when I went to college in the 80's professors were held to zero standards. They cared more about research than teaching. They were terrible at teaching. My tuition literally was just being used to subsidize their research which is mostly garbage and advances nothing.

I wanted to go to college and learn from a teacher. But I didn't. I taught myself or hired tutors.

I would rather learn from a teacher than a professor and I wish there were colleges with the sole purpose of teaching the students.

The current college model is trash.



90s grad and this was my experience too. Outside of a couple of gem professors (typically adjuncts at that) I essentially taught myself the material. Now that tuition is 4x the cost it was then, is it any surprise students expect more bang for their buck?
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 14:01     Subject: Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
Isn't it, though? In general, you pay the university, and they provide you an education. In some circumstances, you receive a free education, then owe the government 4-6 years of your life. Both situations sound pretty transactional to me.
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 14:01     Subject: Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
Anonymous wrote:I thought this article in the Chronicle summarized well the state of college today. Does this resonate with your students' college experience? Is this less true at LACs?

It's behind a paywall but here is the AI summary:

https://www.chronicle.com/article/customers-in-the-classroom?sra=true

Title: Customers in the Classroom
Subtitle: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction. Who — or what — is to blame?

Initial Enthusiasm: Maiya Villanueva, a native of Fort Myers, Florida, was initially excited about learning and pursuing higher education. She dreamed of becoming a lawyer or entering medicine.

Shift in Perspective: However, her excitement has waned as she progressed through college. She feels that her coursework is repetitive and lacks real-world application, and she worries about the value of her education.

Frustrations with College:
• Bureaucratic hurdles, such as difficulties accessing textbooks, have caused frustration.
• Uninspiring instructors and repetitive coursework have made her question the point of college.
• The high cost of college has led her to work long hours and miss out on extracurricular activities.

Growing Cynicism: Villanueva's experience reflects a broader trend of student cynicism and disillusionment with higher education. Many students view college as a transaction and are primarily focused on grades and job prospects.

Challenges for Professors: Faculty members also face challenges, including pressure to pass students and the increasing prevalence of student cheating.

The Broader Crisis: This crisis in higher education is characterized by:
• Students' transactional approach to learning
• Faculty members' struggle to maintain authority and challenge students
• The need for a renewed focus on the value of education and intellectual exploration

Professor's Concerns:
• Growing gap between professors and students.
• Many professors view students as "lost generation" due to cheating, lack of reading, and disengagement in class.
• Some professors perceive students as "the enemy."

Wrong Solution:
• "Better customer service" is not the solution.
• Students may simply want to get through school as quickly and efficiently as possible.

What Students Need:
• Advice and mentorship.
• Strong relationships and role models.
• A sense of purpose and connection to their education.

The Problem with the Student-as-Customer Model:
• Treating college as a business can lead to a transactional approach.
• Public perception of college as a business can influence policy decisions.

Historical Context:
• Public higher education used to be much more affordable.
• Many voters are unaware of this historical change.

Reversing the Transactional Reputation:
• Colleges should focus on academic pursuits over nonacademic features.
• Professors should be transparent and authentic.
• Colleges need to demonstrate genuine care for students.

Key Takeaways:
• Students crave meaningful relationships and connections.
• Colleges need to shift their focus from transactional to transformational.
• Professors play a crucial role in building positive relationships with students.


Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 14:00     Subject: Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
Anonymous wrote:I’m not surprised that more students are viewing higher education as vocational training, due to the high cost of a diploma. Kids are feeling pressured to major in lucrative fields vs ones that fit their interests or personality.

Many jobs of the future probably haven’t even been invented yet, so in my opinion, a liberal arts education at the undergraduate level is valuable in teaching students how to learn and adapt. I recognize that my view is in the minority now.


Agree. I feel many of these comments are indicative of a new dark age in which education is not valued. I think it is tragic for our society as a whole. I blame the colleges for pandering to students with spending on dorms, etc, which raises tuition costs but I also blame parents who are so consumerist. (Have folks noticed how some parents focus more on how their child will decorate their dorm room than on what they will study?).
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 13:49     Subject: Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:It is a transaction: you jump through a bunch of dumb hoops to have the great privilege of paying a lot of money to go study and live somewhere until you finally get your end product, your diploma.

The end product is a good paying job. Most people don't have family money, and col has gone up faster than wages.


There is no guarantee of a job.
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 13:47     Subject: Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
Anonymous wrote:It is a transaction: you jump through a bunch of dumb hoops to have the great privilege of paying a lot of money to go study and live somewhere until you finally get your end product, your diploma.

The end product is a good paying job. Most people don't have family money, and col has gone up faster than wages.
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 13:28     Subject: Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
It is a transaction: you jump through a bunch of dumb hoops to have the great privilege of paying a lot of money to go study and live somewhere until you finally get your end product, your diploma.
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 13:10     Subject: Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
Anonymous wrote:I’m not surprised that more students are viewing higher education as vocational training, due to the high cost of a diploma. Kids are feeling pressured to major in lucrative fields vs ones that fit their interests or personality.

Many jobs of the future probably haven’t even been invented yet, so in my opinion, a liberal arts education at the undergraduate level is valuable in teaching students how to learn and adapt. I recognize that my view is in the minority now.


I'm with you that liberal arts is definitely the best way to educate a well-rounded and adaptable human, but I rather doubt the whole jobs of the future line. Haven't we been hearing that for decades now? And just about the only "job of the future" that's showed up is social media influencer or manager (ugh). In fact many future proof jobs are the jobs that have been around for literally millenia. Food still needs to be grown. Animals still need to be raised. Things like that.
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 12:34     Subject: Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
Anonymous wrote:Back when people read philosophy in college and the like, the assumption was that employers hired bright people and then trained them. The real issue today isn’t universities but employers who no longer provide any training. This puts us in the situation where either your university now teaches project management and data analysis or the student pays for boot camps and the like later on their own. The fault is really the employers who don’t want a broadly educated workforce. They just want serfs


NP. I actually think skills like project management and data analysis can be effectively taught alongside the philosophical ponderings and classes taken for pure intellectual pleasure. And that universities are well-placed to deliver a curriculum that integrates between clearly-identifiable skills (certifications, etc.) and less directly-provable general thinking, insight development, and communication skills.

Perhaps the way we bucket disciplines needs to change.

i agree that college has become too expensive to allow it to cling so fiercely to its medieval origins as an institution for preparing society's most literate (and rich) men for only a handful of professions.

Employers treat employees like serfs when they are a commodity...no special skills, no above-average thinking, little direct impact on innovation, productivity, or profit. It's not morally right, but the mere fact of employment is no guarantee of any higher goals on either side. I think it's more likely that universities can bend to provide more useful and intellectually-satisfying learning experiences vs. employers become more charitable about financing training than they have been lately.
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 12:33     Subject: Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
Anonymous wrote:I’m not surprised that more students are viewing higher education as vocational training, due to the high cost of a diploma. Kids are feeling pressured to major in lucrative fields vs ones that fit their interests or personality.

Many jobs of the future probably haven’t even been invented yet, so in my opinion, a liberal arts education at the undergraduate level is valuable in teaching students how to learn and adapt. I recognize that my view is in the minority now.


Ive been thinking about this as well for my DC. I do think are limits to a liberal arts program if a student know they want to pursue engineering or nursing, for example. Hard to squeeze ABET programming with meaningful breadth (though Harvey Mudd has their approach). But if a student isn't certain and needs the space to explore, I can see how this is very valuable. I was an engineering major back in the day and sad to say that we made light of the liberal arts majors. But I was very narrow in my interests. Post MBA, years of work experience, and a DC that loves humanities as much as STEM has led me to see the value in such an education. And to your point, that will likely be jobs in the future that dont exist today. Domain knowledge outside of STEM will be important.
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 12:20     Subject: Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
This is the result of decades of parents vilifying trades and trade schools.

I distinctly remember hearing "you'll never amount to anything without a college degree" from 5th grade until 12th. The kids who had their names printed in the school newspaper without a college after their name were considered losers.

The fact is, very few corporate jobs require higher education.

I don't believe I learned anything during college that was critical or necessary for advancement in my career.
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 12:00     Subject: Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:colleges treat students as a transaction so .. this seems totally reasonable.

+1

BS holistic admissions, insane college costs. So, the kids and their parents play the game.

It's not up to the college students to change things. It's up to the adults, the colleges and society in general.

The kids are a product of our society.


College students are adults.

They are adults in name only. Most still rely on parents, and they are subject to the whims of the real adults who control the power.
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 11:32     Subject: Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
Anonymous wrote:colleges treat students as a transaction so .. this seems totally reasonable.

THIS
Anonymous
Post 09/30/2024 11:31     Subject: Article: Students increasingly treat college as a transaction
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:colleges treat students as a transaction so .. this seems totally reasonable.

+1

BS holistic admissions, insane college costs. So, the kids and their parents play the game.

It's not up to the college students to change things. It's up to the adults, the colleges and society in general.

The kids are a product of our society.


College students are adults.


Do they pay $$$?