Anonymous
07/12/2024 14:14
Subject: Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
Haven't read all the posts, but yes, this is is an issue. In my extended family the issue has been they don't need to work, but those with prestigious jobs don't want to lose the status. It did not end well-in 2 cases lawsuits. I was the scapegoat for trying to stop a parent before it was too late and have been vilified and scapegoated to this day.
Also, my friends mom caused a major car accident and is being sued. The tirades she threw every time they tried to take away the car keys were insane and she threatened to sue her own children before she herself was sued.
The common thread is these were all people who had massive egos before aging and while aging had no awareness and the battle became too much and people gave up. In my case I stopped a potential disaster, but am not ex-communicated.
Also, my friends mom caused a major car accident and is being sued. The tirades she threw every time they tried to take away the car keys were insane and she threatened to sue her own children before she herself was sued.
The common thread is these were all people who had massive egos before aging and while aging had no awareness and the battle became too much and people gave up. In my case I stopped a potential disaster, but am not ex-communicated.
Anonymous
07/11/2024 11:21
Subject: Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
Oh OP, I'm so sorry, and you (and your sister) are just in a terrible position given your mother's adamance.
I agree w/ a pp that it will likely take some sort of crisis to get this to a point where you can actually accomplish change. With any luck that crisis will be something relatively low level, like a fall that sends him to an ER for a sprain or something. Then it is possible that you can intervene in a way that prevents discharge back to the home until better supports (or a different placement) is arranged.
I would line up some evidence and support so you're ready for that moment.
- You and your sister should (if you haven't already) write up a list of every dangerous incident you're aware of. Dates, basic details, safety concerns.
- Be sure that list also details any/all prior hospitalizations, diagnoses, and treatment approaches. You will want all of this evidence on hand and organized to make your case w/ key people in the future.
- Schedule a call w/ your father's gerontologist for you and your sister. Explain your concerns, make clear that he is currently unsafe in the home and your mother is unable to ensure safety for either of them. Explain that given her refusal to allow care your hands are tied until there is a crisis, but then if/when he is hospitalized again you will be stepping in as fully as possible to see that he is not discharged until adequate arrangements to ensure safety have been put in place. Ask for his support and partnership with you in that effort.
- Schedule a call w/ your mother and their wealth advisor. Don't tell her it's about your concerns about your father's care, just that you want to make sure you're prepared to help/pay bills/etc... if she for any reason gets sick or is temporarily unable to do all of that. If she won't cooperate with that then call them directly and have a meeting. They won't share financial details (if professional) but will understand if you're telling them your concerns and you want to be sure they have your contact information should it ever be required, that you have met them so when the day comes that you need to call they will know who you are, etc...
- Have similar meeting/introduction conversations w/ any other physicians and attorneys who will be key to obtaining/supporting care for your parents.
- If you can get your mother to cooperate on financial matters, ensure you or your sister has signing authority on a bank account so you can pay bills etc... (again - convey this is just about supporting your mom and ensuring you can step in if she's under the weather for a few weeks...)
Basically just get on record with everyone you can, and in doing that convey that your father has Alzheimer's that is progressing significantly, and it's quite a burden on your mom so you just want to make sure they know how to reach you, you know how to contact them, etc... Good professionals will understand what you are doing and will try to help, or at least let you know the parameters of what you can use them for or not (or what your mother has to authorize for them to talk with you.)
You could consider speaking with a Geriatric Care Manager (https://www.aginglifecare.org/) in your area - they are wonderful resources for knowledge on care options at all levels, and also are great at talkiing with people who are experiencing the nightmares of aging.
When the crisis comes and your father ends up in a hospital again, that's when you and your sister can potentially have some leverage beyong your mother. Hospitals cannot release a patient into an unsafe environment. So you want to be there in person, be sure you speak to the discharge manager and hospital social worker (or equivalent role) and keep stating that your mother is unable to ensure safety for your father and that the home is unsafe. This is when your list of prior incidents is critical. They will have dealt with these dynamics before so will understand the challenges of a resistant spouse. They may also be eager to facilitate discharge, so be prepared for potential pressure around whether you or others can ensure safety. Just keep reiterating, and proving, that the home is unsafe and go from there.
It's a deeply awful thing to wait, and almost hope for, a crisis - but that may be where you are. But in the meantime you can at least be preparing for that so you have a plan.
Good luck!!
I agree w/ a pp that it will likely take some sort of crisis to get this to a point where you can actually accomplish change. With any luck that crisis will be something relatively low level, like a fall that sends him to an ER for a sprain or something. Then it is possible that you can intervene in a way that prevents discharge back to the home until better supports (or a different placement) is arranged.
I would line up some evidence and support so you're ready for that moment.
- You and your sister should (if you haven't already) write up a list of every dangerous incident you're aware of. Dates, basic details, safety concerns.
- Be sure that list also details any/all prior hospitalizations, diagnoses, and treatment approaches. You will want all of this evidence on hand and organized to make your case w/ key people in the future.
- Schedule a call w/ your father's gerontologist for you and your sister. Explain your concerns, make clear that he is currently unsafe in the home and your mother is unable to ensure safety for either of them. Explain that given her refusal to allow care your hands are tied until there is a crisis, but then if/when he is hospitalized again you will be stepping in as fully as possible to see that he is not discharged until adequate arrangements to ensure safety have been put in place. Ask for his support and partnership with you in that effort.
- Schedule a call w/ your mother and their wealth advisor. Don't tell her it's about your concerns about your father's care, just that you want to make sure you're prepared to help/pay bills/etc... if she for any reason gets sick or is temporarily unable to do all of that. If she won't cooperate with that then call them directly and have a meeting. They won't share financial details (if professional) but will understand if you're telling them your concerns and you want to be sure they have your contact information should it ever be required, that you have met them so when the day comes that you need to call they will know who you are, etc...
- Have similar meeting/introduction conversations w/ any other physicians and attorneys who will be key to obtaining/supporting care for your parents.
- If you can get your mother to cooperate on financial matters, ensure you or your sister has signing authority on a bank account so you can pay bills etc... (again - convey this is just about supporting your mom and ensuring you can step in if she's under the weather for a few weeks...)
Basically just get on record with everyone you can, and in doing that convey that your father has Alzheimer's that is progressing significantly, and it's quite a burden on your mom so you just want to make sure they know how to reach you, you know how to contact them, etc... Good professionals will understand what you are doing and will try to help, or at least let you know the parameters of what you can use them for or not (or what your mother has to authorize for them to talk with you.)
You could consider speaking with a Geriatric Care Manager (https://www.aginglifecare.org/) in your area - they are wonderful resources for knowledge on care options at all levels, and also are great at talkiing with people who are experiencing the nightmares of aging.
When the crisis comes and your father ends up in a hospital again, that's when you and your sister can potentially have some leverage beyong your mother. Hospitals cannot release a patient into an unsafe environment. So you want to be there in person, be sure you speak to the discharge manager and hospital social worker (or equivalent role) and keep stating that your mother is unable to ensure safety for your father and that the home is unsafe. This is when your list of prior incidents is critical. They will have dealt with these dynamics before so will understand the challenges of a resistant spouse. They may also be eager to facilitate discharge, so be prepared for potential pressure around whether you or others can ensure safety. Just keep reiterating, and proving, that the home is unsafe and go from there.
It's a deeply awful thing to wait, and almost hope for, a crisis - but that may be where you are. But in the meantime you can at least be preparing for that so you have a plan.
Good luck!!
Anonymous
07/10/2024 14:22
Subject: Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
You and your sister need to meet up. Go to the city that your parents are in. Get your father into a home. Get your mom set up to live alone.
Do what it takes to make these steps happen.
He is clearly a danger to himself and others. You can get him declared incompetent. I don't know what the steps are that you need to take to make all of this happen, but you clearly need to make it happen.
Go there. Talk to your mother. See if she will agree. Strong arm her into it if you need to.
Do what it takes to make these steps happen.
He is clearly a danger to himself and others. You can get him declared incompetent. I don't know what the steps are that you need to take to make all of this happen, but you clearly need to make it happen.
Go there. Talk to your mother. See if she will agree. Strong arm her into it if you need to.
Anonymous
07/09/2024 22:26
Subject: Re:Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
Anonymous wrote:OP, this situation must be extremely stressful for you and your sibling.
I agree with PPs who said that your mom has to hit rock bottom before any change will happen.
One idea to speed that along would be the next time she calls you in a panic because he is missing, has been violent, etc, call the police and ask them to do a wellness check. Explain the situation to them and get them to insist your dad goes to the ER because he isn't safe at home. Alternatively, you could call an ambulance. Once he is in the ER, you can speak to the social worker at the hospital and make it clear that home is unsafe for him. Then he will be placed at an appropriate institution while you work out the details on where he can go long term. This would twist your mom's arm.
If he goes to the ER and OP’s mom tells the social worker that she wants to take him home, they will have no choice but to discharge him home; the social worker can’t force placement. Patients make terrible/unsafe decisions all the time, but if they have capacity…it’s their right.
Anonymous
07/09/2024 15:26
Subject: Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
Dear OP,
This is a miserable place to be. I’m glad you’ve found some of PP’s posts helpful. I hope the following thoughts also might be helpful.
1. Your mother is a free agent. She will do what she decides when she decides. There is nothing you can do to change that. You can provide options and suggestions but it is up to her whether to take them. The most powerful tool at your disposal is to leave her with the consequences of her own choices and not “help her out” in ways that enable poor decisions.
2. People get sued all the time, with and without grounds. Sometimes insurance provides a defense and indemnification and sometimes the policy proves to be only an invitation to a coverage action in addition to the original claim. People get charged with crimes all the time too, and the “authorities” involved typically are immune from action even when the charges are even transparently groundless.
3. What, if anything, your mother can do to limit her potential exposure to suit on theories of neglect or along the lines of vicarious liability is a complex question best answered by a competent local attorney. This is not an area for dabblers, amateurs or off the cuff answers. Some of the well-meaning ideas that have been voiced could cut both ways — like trick locks to imprison an apparently still not in conservatorship adult, creating a fire hazard or more; treating all assets as “locked together” when they might not be; moving assets around (which could actually result in loss of protections); involving government agencies (who are blunt instruments in general), etc. In this context, an elder lawyer doubtless can provide great assistance, but they probably are not the best source of advice on liability issues.
4. For me, the physical violence would be a pivot point. Your mother has no duty to hide in a “safe room,” and it is no good to have one once she’s already been assaulted. But if she can’t see this there’s not much you can do.
Best of luck in a bad place to be.
This is a miserable place to be. I’m glad you’ve found some of PP’s posts helpful. I hope the following thoughts also might be helpful.
1. Your mother is a free agent. She will do what she decides when she decides. There is nothing you can do to change that. You can provide options and suggestions but it is up to her whether to take them. The most powerful tool at your disposal is to leave her with the consequences of her own choices and not “help her out” in ways that enable poor decisions.
2. People get sued all the time, with and without grounds. Sometimes insurance provides a defense and indemnification and sometimes the policy proves to be only an invitation to a coverage action in addition to the original claim. People get charged with crimes all the time too, and the “authorities” involved typically are immune from action even when the charges are even transparently groundless.
3. What, if anything, your mother can do to limit her potential exposure to suit on theories of neglect or along the lines of vicarious liability is a complex question best answered by a competent local attorney. This is not an area for dabblers, amateurs or off the cuff answers. Some of the well-meaning ideas that have been voiced could cut both ways — like trick locks to imprison an apparently still not in conservatorship adult, creating a fire hazard or more; treating all assets as “locked together” when they might not be; moving assets around (which could actually result in loss of protections); involving government agencies (who are blunt instruments in general), etc. In this context, an elder lawyer doubtless can provide great assistance, but they probably are not the best source of advice on liability issues.
4. For me, the physical violence would be a pivot point. Your mother has no duty to hide in a “safe room,” and it is no good to have one once she’s already been assaulted. But if she can’t see this there’s not much you can do.
Best of luck in a bad place to be.
Anonymous
07/09/2024 14:12
Subject: Re:Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
OP here. Thank you to everyone who replied and showed compassion and empathy and I am sorry others are in similar circumstances. It's a horrible disease that takes everything you have and comes back for more.
The good news is that my sister and I are in total agreement in regards to our parents. I know being at odds with siblings can make things 1000 times worse and thankfully, that's not our situation.
When I tell you our mother has come up with every excuse possible, I'm not exaggerating. We've flown down to be with our father while she gets a few days' of respite, and now she no longer will do that or entertain the possibility of hiring any sort of in-home help, even if it's for a few hours only. She says the rage that he takes out on her after isn't worth it. And to be fair, he does scream at her with his eyes bulging that it's not fair that she gets to live her life while he doesn't and how she wants half his money and for him to die. Her life is a living hell, too, not just his.
We go back and forth between respecting that we aren't his wife, that she is, and that she gets to make decisions for him, even if we totally disagree...and then saying the stress of this is making her not think straight and he'll take her down with him- what can we do to help her??
I've emailed her priest to ask him to please persuade her to get some help for herself (priest blew me off). We're setting up an appt with a dementia caregiver advocate, which is a victory in and of itself, as she refused for 2 years to meet with this person.
We don't want their money, as has been implied. I'm grateful they have money as they can use to make their last years more comfortable. I mentioned the money or a lawsuit as a possibility of scaring her into helping or even just wondering what troubles we/she could face.
Thanks for some concrete ideas that have been given.
The good news is that my sister and I are in total agreement in regards to our parents. I know being at odds with siblings can make things 1000 times worse and thankfully, that's not our situation.
When I tell you our mother has come up with every excuse possible, I'm not exaggerating. We've flown down to be with our father while she gets a few days' of respite, and now she no longer will do that or entertain the possibility of hiring any sort of in-home help, even if it's for a few hours only. She says the rage that he takes out on her after isn't worth it. And to be fair, he does scream at her with his eyes bulging that it's not fair that she gets to live her life while he doesn't and how she wants half his money and for him to die. Her life is a living hell, too, not just his.
We go back and forth between respecting that we aren't his wife, that she is, and that she gets to make decisions for him, even if we totally disagree...and then saying the stress of this is making her not think straight and he'll take her down with him- what can we do to help her??
I've emailed her priest to ask him to please persuade her to get some help for herself (priest blew me off). We're setting up an appt with a dementia caregiver advocate, which is a victory in and of itself, as she refused for 2 years to meet with this person.
We don't want their money, as has been implied. I'm grateful they have money as they can use to make their last years more comfortable. I mentioned the money or a lawsuit as a possibility of scaring her into helping or even just wondering what troubles we/she could face.
Thanks for some concrete ideas that have been given.
Anonymous
07/09/2024 13:24
Subject: Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
Get the special locks installed for the doors so Mom can get out but Dad cannot.
Anonymous
07/09/2024 13:16
Subject: Re:Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
OP, this situation must be extremely stressful for you and your sibling.
I agree with PPs who said that your mom has to hit rock bottom before any change will happen.
One idea to speed that along would be the next time she calls you in a panic because he is missing, has been violent, etc, call the police and ask them to do a wellness check. Explain the situation to them and get them to insist your dad goes to the ER because he isn't safe at home. Alternatively, you could call an ambulance. Once he is in the ER, you can speak to the social worker at the hospital and make it clear that home is unsafe for him. Then he will be placed at an appropriate institution while you work out the details on where he can go long term. This would twist your mom's arm.
I agree with PPs who said that your mom has to hit rock bottom before any change will happen.
One idea to speed that along would be the next time she calls you in a panic because he is missing, has been violent, etc, call the police and ask them to do a wellness check. Explain the situation to them and get them to insist your dad goes to the ER because he isn't safe at home. Alternatively, you could call an ambulance. Once he is in the ER, you can speak to the social worker at the hospital and make it clear that home is unsafe for him. Then he will be placed at an appropriate institution while you work out the details on where he can go long term. This would twist your mom's arm.
Anonymous
07/09/2024 13:16
Subject: Re:Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:OP here. Thanks for your responses.
Just to give a little more background, our mom refuses to believe it's Alzheimer's vs. dementia. Maybe there is little to no difference practically, but she thinks he has "mild cognitive impairment" despite him having participated in an Alzheimer's clinical trial where the paperwork said "you have been enrolled in this clinical trial for an Alzheimer's drug because you have been diagnosed with Alzheimer's."
He has been involuntarily hospitalized after expressing suicidal thoughts, is constantly falling down stairs (fell last week and broke his tailbone) and tripping, and is raging at her (F you, this is all your fault, you want all my money, etc.). Yet, she claims he is a totally unique person that no one with any training in memory care issues will be able to handle, so that's her excuse for why she won't seek some in-home help. Meanwhile, her blood pressure is sky high and she is one moment away from a breakdown herself.
The good news is that they have plenty of money and a wealth management company to handle it. At this point, it's more about her not wanting to outsource anything to the point of it taking her down.
Fascinating how your post is concerned with whether or not she can be sued (and the money wiped out!) as opposed to the welfare of your father.
Fascinating how you lack middle school level reading comprehension skills.
OP is talking about paying for the expensive care her father needs to be safe, and is using the threat of a lawsuit as a tactic to pressure her mother into letting OP save her father's life.
Anonymous
07/09/2024 13:15
Subject: Re:Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
Anonymous wrote:OP again. He is not driving, thankfully. She's taken the keys and hidden them from him, but would he drive if given the opportunity? Absolutely. He's very angry that that freedom was taken from him.
I guess when I say accident, my sister and I worry that when he storms out of the house in all weather and time of day, he could trip and fall into a pond with gators and either drown or be attacked. They live in Charleston and there are tons of bodies of water in their neighborhood, all with alligators. Dad can't swim either. When he goes out, he's unable to say street names but I guess by muscle memory has been able to find his way home. That will change in the near future.
Can you arrange a few days respite care so your mother can see how life could be easier for her without this stress?
Anonymous
07/09/2024 13:14
Subject: Re:Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
Anonymous wrote:OP again. He is not driving, thankfully. She's taken the keys and hidden them from him, but would he drive if given the opportunity? Absolutely. He's very angry that that freedom was taken from him.
I guess when I say accident, my sister and I worry that when he storms out of the house in all weather and time of day, he could trip and fall into a pond with gators and either drown or be attacked. They live in Charleston and there are tons of bodies of water in their neighborhood, all with alligators. Dad can't swim either. When he goes out, he's unable to say street names but I guess by muscle memory has been able to find his way home. That will change in the near future.
Understand he can trip in the house and also die.
My Dad's friend had to nail the windows shut in his house so his wife could not get out. Thee are some special dementia locks you can get placed on the doors so that Mom can work them but Dad cannot.
If Mom has financial and health care POAs there is really not much more you can do if Mom is refusing help. Sometimes you need to walk away a bit in senior care as offspring.
Anonymous
07/09/2024 13:13
Subject: Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
This is a timely article about a man dealing with his wife's early onset disease.
He comments how much families are expected to take on.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/article/2024/jul/09/how-alzheimers-undid-my-dazzling-creative-wife-in-her-40s
He comments how much families are expected to take on.
https://www.theguardian.com/news/article/2024/jul/09/how-alzheimers-undid-my-dazzling-creative-wife-in-her-40s
Anonymous
07/09/2024 13:08
Subject: Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
Anonymous wrote:You and your sister need to intervene. He is escaping with memory issues. Do you know how many elderly people get lost because of that combo?
Please order a medical ID bracelet and or necklace for him.
Anonymous
07/09/2024 13:06
Subject: Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
You and your sister need to intervene. He is escaping with memory issues. Do you know how many elderly people get lost because of that combo?
Anonymous
07/09/2024 12:50
Subject: Spouse criminal or civil liability for Alzheimer's patient
Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately it will likely take a crisis to shift things. Because your mother can’t actually care for him alone (nobody can!), he will eventually wander out of the house when she is in the bathroom or taking something out of the oven, or he will have a fall that requires hospitalization and it *may* force the issue. But since she is his decision-maker (and he may have some decision-making capacity too, despite the dementia), there is really nothing you can do. I work in a hospital and there are countless instances where a patient’s spouse decides to take the patient home while their adult kids are adamant that it’s unsafe, mom can’t take care of dad, etc. But there’s nothing we can do - if the patient/their spouse has the capacity to make decisions, the kids have no say.
Oftentimes a patient will fall or physically decline for whatever reason and can no longer walk, and that’s when it’s abundantly clear that the spouse cannot manage the patient’s care at home; only then is a change forced. But with dementia patients who still have mobility/can wander, their options for placement will be more limited. Ideally she would agree to an assisted living with memory care before a crisis occurs, but it sounds like that’s an uphill battle.
What kind of accident could he cause? He’s not driving, is he? If he is, an anonymous call to APS might be warranted (they get these calls frequently and they’ll at least be able to guide you). Also, the Alzheimer’s Association has a 24 hour hotline that addresses these kinds of concerns (as awful as the situation is, they get a billion calls about just the same thing; your family is nowhere near alone.
PP here who mentioned that they may need to hit rock bottom...the situation described above is almost identical to what happened in our family. I understand your fear of accidents. Child proof the house, locks on upper part of the doors, chimes, knobs so he can't turn on the stove top, hide the knives and god forbid firearms if they exist. If your mom won't agree to rational solutions, force the bare minimum. It will feel futile but there's only so much you can do. Again, I'm sorry OP, I know how much this truly sucks and I know the toll it can take on everyone. Between taking care of my own babies and constantly being in crisis mode with my parents, I'm shocked I never had a nervous breakdown tbh.