Anonymous
Post 05/25/2024 01:08     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
Anonymous wrote:I was reading "Excellent Sheep" the other day, and while this post isn't about his book, and while I think his viewpoint has many faults, I've been thinking a lot about whether there's a great deal of truth to the idea that elite universities select for people who are good at embracing the dullness and conformity of corporate culture, people who think that seeking "leadership positions" in various meaningless student-run clubs is a good use of time, people who need structured activity for at least 16 hours a day, people who lack some sort of spirit which is hard to identify and name but which is important. This is not to suggest that other universities are some sort of utopia, but there is some sense of excitement and even creativity there that just feels different from the lifeless hierarchy-obsession of more elite places.

In the last couple of years, I have gone with my kids to visit a number of top universities, including several top ivy leagues, Duke, and Stanford, and my kids, to my surprise, seem less than enthused. They say the students seem generally boring and rigid. I think they're right and suspect that this has been true for decades and that it is an enduring aspect of the admissions process, a process which students who are genuinely funny, fun, interesting, or creative will generally not have the willingness to endure. The point is not these universities need to change, because it is likely they can't change their admissions process to bring these types of people in without becoming significantly less selective, and it isn't clear that they even want to.



There are definitelyy a few "outside the box" excellent non-sheep at these schools, but the vast majority are grinders who will do anything to have a brand name degree. I know so many kids of friends (and went to an ivy myself) who fit the bill. Nothing wrong with them, they're just not everyone's cup of tea. Your kids should listen to their instincts and note their observations. They seem wise.
Anonymous
Post 05/25/2024 00:35     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
I’m a HYPS alum as well and have conducted admissions interviews. I think part of the problem is so many of these kids ARE brilliant and interesting but have been told that they must excel at a sport, volunteer, lead a club, start a charity, know what they want to study. Of course kids who are packaged for success as if it’s a formula aren’t always as passionate or interesting because they’ve never felt completely free to just explore and figure out what their interests really are. This isn’t true for every kid but it certainly is for some.
Anonymous
Post 05/25/2024 00:19     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why would an entrepreneur want to get an elite education? That's not what highest academic universities are designed for.

You think you can collect all the status trinkets, but that's not how any of this works.


Geez…it’s like people don’t understand how the world works.

You don’t necessarily have to graduate, but elite schools produce incredible peer networks, have alums in senior roles at VC firms, have alums that are wealthy angel investors, etc.

Google, Amazon, Facebook, Tesla, Open AI… all the most successful startups in the last 20 years are graduates of top schools.


This.
Anonymous
Post 05/24/2024 23:51     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
Anonymous wrote:Why would an entrepreneur want to get an elite education? That's not what highest academic universities are designed for.

You think you can collect all the status trinkets, but that's not how any of this works.


Geez…it’s like people don’t understand how the world works.

You don’t necessarily have to graduate, but elite schools produce incredible peer networks, have alums in senior roles at VC firms, have alums that are wealthy angel investors, etc.

Google, Amazon, Facebook, Tesla, Open AI… all the most successful startups in the last 20 years are graduates of top schools.
Anonymous
Post 05/24/2024 23:39     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Quite honestly, most of the kids outside of the top schools are about as straight and narrow as they come…literally the definition of corporate sheep. Hence why you see so few famous entrepreneurs or other world beaters of all kinds of ilk from the mass market schools.



Name a famous entrepreneur.


Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Sam Altman, Bill gates, Mark Zuckerberg to name a few
Anonymous
Post 05/24/2024 23:32     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't know. I'm in my 40s, and everyone I know who has done something really incredible as an adult -- founded companies, wrote books that sold well, designed something, etc -- all went to top 10 colleges. They are not sheep! They forged a path of their own, thought of a totally original idea, and they had the work ethic to complete it.


I think the OP is making observations about current students. Admissions is much more competitive now and the students are different.


OP needs to meet and get to know dozens from T10 schools. With kids at different ivy/T10s and friends at other ones, we know many current students. Almost all are fun and creative yet also serious driven students who pursue many things at once, and set high goals for themselves. Yet they also belong to arts and performance groups, volunteer on and off campus, and have some of the most interesting discussions. We found the majority of tour guides to be interesting students you would want to have lunch with and get to know better over deep discussion. To each their own.
We went to ivy/T10 and know many fun creative smart people from those schools as well as from many other schools that are not elite. There are creative students at many schools, all the way to the top.

You might relate more to the tour guides because you are an extremely rule oriented person yourself who puts a high value you on appealing to other’s ideas of success. Being involved in arts and music does not make you a creative out of the box thinker by the way. Some people who do those things are still thinking they are supposed to do it a certain way that has been taught by others and care deeply about doing it the “right” way. This isn’t something you can name really but I get what OP is saying. The kids I know who are headed to ivys and the like aren’t as “full of life” as some of the others I know. Not everyone but most. Some seem robotic like checking off the boxes is how life is lived.



Oh good grief. Highly gifted students are highly likely to be out of the box thinkers, and are in abundance at top universities. Elites love this type of thinker.
Anonymous
Post 05/24/2024 23:21     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't know. I'm in my 40s, and everyone I know who has done something really incredible as an adult -- founded companies, wrote books that sold well, designed something, etc -- all went to top 10 colleges. They are not sheep! They forged a path of their own, thought of a totally original idea, and they had the work ethic to complete it.


I think the OP is making observations about current students. Admissions is much more competitive now and the students are different.


OP needs to meet and get to know dozens from T10 schools. With kids at different ivy/T10s and friends at other ones, we know many current students. Almost all are fun and creative yet also serious driven students who pursue many things at once, and set high goals for themselves. Yet they also belong to arts and performance groups, volunteer on and off campus, and have some of the most interesting discussions. We found the majority of tour guides to be interesting students you would want to have lunch with and get to know better over deep discussion. To each their own.
We went to ivy/T10 and know many fun creative smart people from those schools as well as from many other schools that are not elite. There are creative students at many schools, all the way to the top.

You might relate more to the tour guides because you are an extremely rule oriented person yourself who puts a high value you on appealing to other’s ideas of success. Being involved in arts and music does not make you a creative out of the box thinker by the way. Some people who do those things are still thinking they are supposed to do it a certain way that has been taught by others and care deeply about doing it the “right” way. This isn’t something you can name really but I get what OP is saying. The kids I know who are headed to ivys and the like aren’t as “full of life” as some of the others I know. Not everyone but most. Some seem robotic like checking off the boxes is how life is lived.
Anonymous
Post 05/24/2024 23:15     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
Makes sense. Also why there are a high percentage of students with major mental health issues at top schools.
What’s going on? The insane pressure put on them at age 17.
Anonymous
Post 05/24/2024 23:15     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't know. I'm in my 40s, and everyone I know who has done something really incredible as an adult -- founded companies, wrote books that sold well, designed something, etc -- all went to top 10 colleges. They are not sheep! They forged a path of their own, thought of a totally original idea, and they had the work ethic to complete it.


I think the OP is making observations about current students. Admissions is much more competitive now and the students are different.


OP needs to meet and get to know dozens from T10 schools. With kids at different ivy/T10s and friends at other ones, we know many current students. Almost all are fun and creative yet also serious driven students who pursue many things at once, and set high goals for themselves. Yet they also belong to arts and performance groups, volunteer on and off campus, and have some of the most interesting discussions. We found the majority of tour guides to be interesting students you would want to have lunch with and get to know better over deep discussion. To each their own.
We went to ivy/T10 and know many fun creative smart people from those schools as well as from many other schools that are not elite. There are creative students at many schools, all the way to the top.
Anonymous
Post 05/24/2024 22:59     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
Anonymous wrote:I would say that my friends who went to top 10 schools are definitely less fun. Not that they are all stick in the muds, but just not as likely to be really silly or let life get a bit messy.


Just learned tonight that a lot of the “top” kids in DC class (senior) are all on anti-depressants. Many many kids. All going to T20, mostly Ivy.
wtf

(And my kid is also going to an Ivy so it’s not that…) what is going on?
Anonymous
Post 05/24/2024 22:43     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
I think basing entry on gpa and leadership positions to clubs is a joke these days. They aren’t getting it because they are great leaders. They are getting it because nobody else signed up and their parents told them to do it.
Anonymous
Post 05/24/2024 22:21     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:By definition you are now getting people there who are extreme rule followers so there is less creativity and original thought.


I think this is true, but wouldn't the university have a strong incentive to have less of this, so they can have better alumni?

Not if they keep basing admission on gpa alone and measuring success by number of awards received and academic clubs lead etc. they don’t seem to accept out of the box thinkers who are brilliant in other ways but still score high because now so few even require scores. Makes it more likely you just get lots of grinders.
Anonymous
Post 05/24/2024 22:17     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
Anonymous wrote:I don't know. I'm in my 40s, and everyone I know who has done something really incredible as an adult -- founded companies, wrote books that sold well, designed something, etc -- all went to top 10 colleges. They are not sheep! They forged a path of their own, thought of a totally original idea, and they had the work ethic to complete it.


I think the OP is making observations about current students. Admissions is much more competitive now and the students are different.
Anonymous
Post 05/24/2024 22:14     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
Anonymous wrote:I don't know. I'm in my 40s, and everyone I know who has done something really incredible as an adult -- founded companies, wrote books that sold well, designed something, etc -- all went to top 10 colleges. They are not sheep! They forged a path of their own, thought of a totally original idea, and they had the work ethic to complete it.


I went to a big public state school. My kid is headed to an Ivy next year. He is far more creative and entertaining. We didn’t tutor or Kumon. He had a lot of interests. People always gravitated towards him- even not being the show off or the loudest in the room. He has a sh@t ton of grit and had a lot of failure doing what he loves, but he kept going. It’s just now paying off.

I’m curious as what the definition is: keg stands, beer pong, sorority rush, hard core partying? What exactly is the criteria we are using to determine “more interesting”? We were all pretty much the same —kids from NoVA at VA university.
Anonymous
Post 05/24/2024 22:12     Subject: Are students outside of the top 20 or so universities more interesting people?
Anonymous wrote:I would say that my friends who went to top 10 schools are definitely less fun. Not that they are all stick in the muds, but just not as likely to be really silly or let life get a bit messy.


I agree, and I'm an HYPS alum. My college friends are good people and have a sense of humor, but aren't as spontaneous as some of the friends I made post-grad.