Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine does too but it's not gaslighting in his case because he's convinced himself as well - it's not a manipulation tactic. It's weird but I usually don't get into big fights about it because the topics he chooses are just not a big deal. My impression is he mentally has to have "won" every discussion we've ever had, even if they weren't arguments. He cannot internalize learning something from me or coming around to my point of view.

Two examples: when we were discussing getting engaged I said I didn't want a ring. He was really surprised and kind of pushed back (like he thought it might be a test and I really *did* want one) - are you sure? What about a small one? What if it's not expensive? Won't people ask where it is? No ring, no problem. A couple of years later we're watching some show and a guy proposes and DH says "I would NEVER waste money on a ring" and I'm like yeah, welcome to my side of the fence! And he got really upset and defensive, insisted that he never would have bought a ring no matter who he proposed to, that he never intended to buy a ring, that I was not the one who said I didn't want a ring. It was bizarre, I was like what are you on about? We talked about this a lot!

Other example: pregnant with our first kid and I said I don't want to find out the gender. Again: confusion, some push back. "Don't you want to know? How will we know what to put on the registry? Doesn't everyone find out?" We don't find out, and in the recovery room he looks me dead in the face and says "thank you for insisting we not find out, finding out when she was born was the best moment of my life". Awwww. Now, pregnant again and I say something about being glad he is also on Team Green now and he goes off about how it was his idea not to find out, he never wanted to find out, it's one of life's great suprises. . . I just looked at him like "so why did you thank me for insisting??" and he has no recollection of any of that.

In his head, if we disagree on a course of action and take my path, and then it works out, he mentally reconstructs the entire chain of events so that it was his idea all along. It's WEIRD and I do tell him he's doing it but I don't get into knock down drag out fights over it because what would be the point? But it's also not gaslighting because he sincerely believes that is what actually happened. His brain is a liar.

OP here. Yes, this - how can you not feel manipulated? How can you not feel his behavior is intentional?

Anonymous wrote:OP here. It is not an annoying quirk - it is manipulation, to get his way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine does too but it's not gaslighting in his case because he's convinced himself as well - it's not a manipulation tactic. It's weird but I usually don't get into big fights about it because the topics he chooses are just not a big deal. My impression is he mentally has to have "won" every discussion we've ever had, even if they weren't arguments. He cannot internalize learning something from me or coming around to my point of view.

Two examples: when we were discussing getting engaged I said I didn't want a ring. He was really surprised and kind of pushed back (like he thought it might be a test and I really *did* want one) - are you sure? What about a small one? What if it's not expensive? Won't people ask where it is? No ring, no problem. A couple of years later we're watching some show and a guy proposes and DH says "I would NEVER waste money on a ring" and I'm like yeah, welcome to my side of the fence! And he got really upset and defensive, insisted that he never would have bought a ring no matter who he proposed to, that he never intended to buy a ring, that I was not the one who said I didn't want a ring. It was bizarre, I was like what are you on about? We talked about this a lot!

Other example: pregnant with our first kid and I said I don't want to find out the gender. Again: confusion, some push back. "Don't you want to know? How will we know what to put on the registry? Doesn't everyone find out?" We don't find out, and in the recovery room he looks me dead in the face and says "thank you for insisting we not find out, finding out when she was born was the best moment of my life". Awwww. Now, pregnant again and I say something about being glad he is also on Team Green now and he goes off about how it was his idea not to find out, he never wanted to find out, it's one of life's great suprises. . . I just looked at him like "so why did you thank me for insisting??" and he has no recollection of any of that.

In his head, if we disagree on a course of action and take my path, and then it works out, he mentally reconstructs the entire chain of events so that it was his idea all along. It's WEIRD and I do tell him he's doing it but I don't get into knock down drag out fights over it because what would be the point? But it's also not gaslighting because he sincerely believes that is what actually happened. His brain is a liar.

OP here. Yes, this - how can you not feel manipulated? How can you not feel his behavior is intentional?

I just know him well enough to recognize the shock/confusion on his face when I push back that I know it isn't intentional. He's genuinely convinced that his version is what happened. That doesn't make it right or true but it does make it easier to laugh at him and move on instead of fighting on and on. And like I said it's usually about something where he's adopting my POV and the lie in his head is that it was always his POV to begin with so that helps me just roll my eyes. We now agree and if you need to believe it's because you convinced me I'll tell you out loud that you're full of it but then drop it because . . . well, we agree on the issue behind the issue, at least.

We don't really argue much about things that matter and if this cropped up on a topic where we disagreed or it really mattered to me I'd fight it out. But because of the way it manifests in our relationship it's easier to treat it as just something he does, if that makes sense? Like an annoying quirk.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine does too but it's not gaslighting in his case because he's convinced himself as well - it's not a manipulation tactic. It's weird but I usually don't get into big fights about it because the topics he chooses are just not a big deal. My impression is he mentally has to have "won" every discussion we've ever had, even if they weren't arguments. He cannot internalize learning something from me or coming around to my point of view.

Two examples: when we were discussing getting engaged I said I didn't want a ring. He was really surprised and kind of pushed back (like he thought it might be a test and I really *did* want one) - are you sure? What about a small one? What if it's not expensive? Won't people ask where it is? No ring, no problem. A couple of years later we're watching some show and a guy proposes and DH says "I would NEVER waste money on a ring" and I'm like yeah, welcome to my side of the fence! And he got really upset and defensive, insisted that he never would have bought a ring no matter who he proposed to, that he never intended to buy a ring, that I was not the one who said I didn't want a ring. It was bizarre, I was like what are you on about? We talked about this a lot!

Other example: pregnant with our first kid and I said I don't want to find out the gender. Again: confusion, some push back. "Don't you want to know? How will we know what to put on the registry? Doesn't everyone find out?" We don't find out, and in the recovery room he looks me dead in the face and says "thank you for insisting we not find out, finding out when she was born was the best moment of my life". Awwww. Now, pregnant again and I say something about being glad he is also on Team Green now and he goes off about how it was his idea not to find out, he never wanted to find out, it's one of life's great suprises. . . I just looked at him like "so why did you thank me for insisting??" and he has no recollection of any of that.

In his head, if we disagree on a course of action and take my path, and then it works out, he mentally reconstructs the entire chain of events so that it was his idea all along. It's WEIRD and I do tell him he's doing it but I don't get into knock down drag out fights over it because what would be the point? But it's also not gaslighting because he sincerely believes that is what actually happened. His brain is a liar.

OP here. Yes, this - how can you not feel manipulated? How can you not feel his behavior is intentional?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My stbx does this. One time I got fed up and did it back to him - just adamantly insisted something had happened that never happened. It was SUCH an odd feeling, both to just deliberately lie like that, and to watch him sputtering and confused. Honestly it gave me. surge of feeling powerful in that moment.

That was eye opening to me and I concluded that he in fact does it as a deliberate tactic to win arguments. I can’t really bring myself to do the same because at the end of the day I actually want to be fair (stupid me). Winning an argument because I lied isn’t a goal for me.

Yuck.

He turns everything into lies and a she said/ She said. What a mess.

Imagine having to be in court with someone like that. Always lying and denying. Boy would that rack up the legal fees and months and months of muck.

Anonymous wrote:Mine does too but it's not gaslighting in his case because he's convinced himself as well - it's not a manipulation tactic. It's weird but I usually don't get into big fights about it because the topics he chooses are just not a big deal. My impression is he mentally has to have "won" every discussion we've ever had, even if they weren't arguments. He cannot internalize learning something from me or coming around to my point of view.

Two examples: when we were discussing getting engaged I said I didn't want a ring. He was really surprised and kind of pushed back (like he thought it might be a test and I really *did* want one) - are you sure? What about a small one? What if it's not expensive? Won't people ask where it is? No ring, no problem. A couple of years later we're watching some show and a guy proposes and DH says "I would NEVER waste money on a ring" and I'm like yeah, welcome to my side of the fence! And he got really upset and defensive, insisted that he never would have bought a ring no matter who he proposed to, that he never intended to buy a ring, that I was not the one who said I didn't want a ring. It was bizarre, I was like what are you on about? We talked about this a lot!

Other example: pregnant with our first kid and I said I don't want to find out the gender. Again: confusion, some push back. "Don't you want to know? How will we know what to put on the registry? Doesn't everyone find out?" We don't find out, and in the recovery room he looks me dead in the face and says "thank you for insisting we not find out, finding out when she was born was the best moment of my life". Awwww. Now, pregnant again and I say something about being glad he is also on Team Green now and he goes off about how it was his idea not to find out, he never wanted to find out, it's one of life's great suprises. . . I just looked at him like "so why did you thank me for insisting??" and he has no recollection of any of that.

In his head, if we disagree on a course of action and take my path, and then it works out, he mentally reconstructs the entire chain of events so that it was his idea all along. It's WEIRD and I do tell him he's doing it but I don't get into knock down drag out fights over it because what would be the point? But it's also not gaslighting because he sincerely believes that is what actually happened. His brain is a liar.

Anonymous wrote:My stbx does this. One time I got fed up and did it back to him - just adamantly insisted something had happened that never happened. It was SUCH an odd feeling, both to just deliberately lie like that, and to watch him sputtering and confused. Honestly it gave me. surge of feeling powerful in that moment.

That was eye opening to me and I concluded that he in fact does it as a deliberate tactic to win arguments. I can’t really bring myself to do the same because at the end of the day I actually want to be fair (stupid me). Winning an argument because I lied isn’t a goal for me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a therapist and I have couples come to see me just to have a third-party witness to their disagreements.

I don't think it's always intentionally manipulative (though of course sometimes it is). Therapy can help determine whether it's intentional or not.

So if it’s not intentional does the mentally disordered partner go see a psychologist and psychiatrist?

Otherwise outcome is the same: major disagreements about what actually just happened or was said.

If someone isn't intentionally misremembering something, then they can acknowledge that their memory might not be correct and move on. Just because you remember something differently than someone else doesn't mean you're mentally disordered.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone does this to some degree I guess, especially as time since the incident grows. I find the type of discussions you seem to be having a complete waste of time and a relationship killer in general. When someone is in the wrong you should both mature to the point that you acknowledge/apologize for it soon after and move on.

Now if this isn’t some gaslighting I don’t know what is. No! You are wrong. Not everyone does this to some degree. This is a prime example of trying to gaslight someone. You should be ashamed of yourself.

Anonymous wrote:In some people it's a self-defense mechanism--fear of being wrong, self-worth hit if they are wrong, in trouble if they are wrong--due to childhood trauma. I've seen some people close to me who don't even realize they are doing it.

With one person I find that I can firmly but kindly state the facts. In the beginning they would push back. But I did it enough that they started to see what they were doing. I care about this person deeply, and I knew it had nothing to do with me, and everything to do with them and their past. So it was well worth it to me to help resolve the problem.

Plus, I have a prodigious memory and can't un-know something once I've seen, read, heard it. And they know that.