Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the PPs saying losing their faith was a relief, can you explain how? For me, losing faith would mean all my suffering (and suffering of others) is meaningless. And more important, that all the love and joy I experience are equally meaningless, to be snatched away at possibly at moment for no reason, no justice, no point.

I'll answer: Reality is wonderful, and you can spend your time maximizing the value what you know you have and not worrying about afterlife or any other unlikely supernatural thing. It's liberating. And rewarding - you act good because you choose too, which means you ARE good, and not because of fear of eternal retribution. I have many more reasons, but for this thread and your question that should suffice.

What confuses me is how suffering in meaningful? Why would it make more sense that a supreme being was permitting your suffering (when they could change it), rather than the fact that it is simply an unfortunate part of life?

Even more confusing: how would love and joy be meaningless in any context? (Aside from that being logically impossible).

Love and joy would just be meaningless neurotransmitters firing. As would be your “choice” to do good.

That's demonstrably false, and dumb as well, as it is logically impossible. How could joy not be joyful? It's a square circle. Not possible.

Joy can be joyful and also have no “meaning.” Meaning is just a value you assign to something. If you don’t value joy, then it’s meaningless.

No, sorry. If you don't value a thing, then you won't feel joy about it. Joy is the RESULT. If you feel joy, OBVIOUSLY you value it. Your statements make no logical sense. Sorry to have to say it. You're trying to prove a square circle. It's not logically possible.

NP. Basically, for us normal people, you're correct. There may be some nihilists and people dead inside for one reason or another who can't feel joy and thus don't value it. But that pp you're responding to is just being argumentative.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the PPs saying losing their faith was a relief, can you explain how? For me, losing faith would mean all my suffering (and suffering of others) is meaningless. And more important, that all the love and joy I experience are equally meaningless, to be snatched away at possibly at moment for no reason, no justice, no point.

I'll answer: Reality is wonderful, and you can spend your time maximizing the value what you know you have and not worrying about afterlife or any other unlikely supernatural thing. It's liberating. And rewarding - you act good because you choose too, which means you ARE good, and not because of fear of eternal retribution. I have many more reasons, but for this thread and your question that should suffice.

What confuses me is how suffering in meaningful? Why would it make more sense that a supreme being was permitting your suffering (when they could change it), rather than the fact that it is simply an unfortunate part of life?

Even more confusing: how would love and joy be meaningless in any context? (Aside from that being logically impossible).

Love and joy would just be meaningless neurotransmitters firing. As would be your “choice” to do good.

That's demonstrably false, and dumb as well, as it is logically impossible. How could joy not be joyful? It's a square circle. Not possible.

Joy can be joyful and also have no “meaning.” Meaning is just a value you assign to something. If you don’t value joy, then it’s meaningless.

No, sorry. If you don't value a thing, then you won't feel joy about it. Joy is the RESULT. If you feel joy, OBVIOUSLY you value it. Your statements make no logical sense. Sorry to have to say it. You're trying to prove a square circle. It's not logically possible.

Anonymous wrote:For the PPs saying losing their faith was a relief, can you explain how? For me, losing faith would mean all my suffering (and suffering of others) is meaningless. And more important, that all the love and joy I experience are equally meaningless, to be snatched away at possibly at moment for no reason, no justice, no point.

? Of course there'd be a point. It's called being human. It's basically all we've got. And you can have faith in humanism.

Anonymous wrote:For the PPs saying losing their faith was a relief, can you explain how? For me, losing faith would mean all my suffering (and suffering of others) is meaningless. And more important, that all the love and joy I experience are equally meaningless, to be snatched away at possibly at moment for no reason, no justice, no point.

I'm a DP, but yes, basically. If there was a god, how does that make suffering meaningful? It just sounds like he's a d!ck to force his underlings to suffer just because.

Anonymous wrote:For the PPs saying losing their faith was a relief, can you explain how? For me, losing faith would mean all my suffering (and suffering of others) is meaningless. And more important, that all the love and joy I experience are equally meaningless, to be snatched away at possibly at moment for no reason, no justice, no point.

NP…but why do you need meaning? How does the story behind your joy or suffering change the experience?

The point of it all is the point. When I embraced that I found a sense of relief. And, surprisingly, I found that myself open to faith again, just not the Christian god of the Bible.

Anonymous wrote:If it's any help, you are in good company. Mother Teresa and many other saints experienced a "long dark night of the soul". It does not reflect poorly on God or you, although it is miserable.

Agree. It’s completely normal to lose faith in God. How do you think Holocaust victims felt as their loved ones were being incinerated? Some certainly lost their faith, and some held on deeply despite everyone else being lost.

People handle this differently, but it’s a rational feeling in a world of senselessness. You are not the first to feel this way. Good luck, and I hope your conclusion brings you peace.

It sounds like those who are saying losing faith was a relief, that you viewed God as this oppressive parent that demanded things from you and would punish you if you failed or rewarded you if you did well. Perhaps OP, that is fundamentally how you view God as well. That is unfortunate because that is not Christianity at all. What you all are describing is conditional love, which is the antithesis to God's love. In many ways, it is a good thing you all let go of that false god of conditional love. I can indeed see how that is liberating.

But as someone who came from the other side, starting out as an atheist/agnostic, I don't think the liberation will be life-long. You can find that it feels good to live in the moment now and enjoy the joys and sorrows of life without worrying about the judgement of God, but if you were to REALLY TRULY not believe in God, the emptiness will set in. To look at the suffering and injustice of this world and know that there is no mercy or justice, to feel love and joy and believe that it is all just begins and ends with neurons firing in my brain, that drives people to existential crisis and madness. Sure, you could argue that people make up religions to help themselves feel better and make sense of suffering etc. But I can equally argue that the very fact that humans across time and space have needed to "make up" religion means that we were all born with a need for the divine, a hunger that could only have been placed there by God.

I think most Americans who say they are agnostic/atheist are really running away from their false/childhood view of god. They are not true atheists. True atheism does not end well.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the PPs saying losing their faith was a relief, can you explain how? For me, losing faith would mean all my suffering (and suffering of others) is meaningless. And more important, that all the love and joy I experience are equally meaningless, to be snatched away at possibly at moment for no reason, no justice, no point.

I'll answer: Reality is wonderful, and you can spend your time maximizing the value what you know you have and not worrying about afterlife or any other unlikely supernatural thing. It's liberating. And rewarding - you act good because you choose too, which means you ARE good, and not because of fear of eternal retribution. I have many more reasons, but for this thread and your question that should suffice.

What confuses me is how suffering in meaningful? Why would it make more sense that a supreme being was permitting your suffering (when they could change it), rather than the fact that it is simply an unfortunate part of life?

Even more confusing: how would love and joy be meaningless in any context? (Aside from that being logically impossible).

Love and joy would just be meaningless neurotransmitters firing. As would be your “choice” to do good.

That's demonstrably false, and dumb as well, as it is logically impossible. How could joy not be joyful? It's a square circle. Not possible.

Joy can be joyful and also have no “meaning.” Meaning is just a value you assign to something. If you don’t value joy, then it’s meaningless.

If joy was valueless, it wouldn't be joy. Joy is a feeling you get from a situation because you value it. If you didn't value it, you wouldn't feel joy. Square circle.

I can't believe we are actually debating this nonsense. Are you for real or are you trolling me?

Trust in the Lord with all your heart,
And do not lean on your own understanding.
In all your ways acknowledge him,
And he will make your path straight.

Faith is a big one. Praying for your faith to not be shaken, but to stand firm in the truth.

Anonymous wrote:Crying as I type this, I'm a Christian who is losing their faith in God. My life has been nothing but an utter train wreck of abuse as child, life long disease, no family, no kids to help me and for years (like I feel sorry for myself how I told myself it would get better, prayed and prayed and nothing) now I'm thinking this is has been all lies to myself. Things aren't getting better, I don't feel God with me, I don't hear him, I don't get any help from him. I'm losing my faith here which is also making me sad and depressed. I feel utterly alone and in a dark hole I can't get myself out of. I'd like to know what other Christians would say for advice here. I'm at a total loss.

If it’s a nice day where you live, go outside, find a tree and a patch of grass, sit under the tree, and put your feet in the grass. Then spend some time not thinking about your troubles, but focusing on what it feels like to sit under the tree, how the grass feels under your feet, and how the sun feels as it comes down through the branches and leaves and then on to you.

You have lost faith in God because you are too deep in your own human nature, and humans don’t understand God. By going out into nature and just observing what’s going on, you will hear Him again. He never left; you just got lost. Go out and spend time with His other creations like this, and you will find Him again.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the PPs saying losing their faith was a relief, can you explain how? For me, losing faith would mean all my suffering (and suffering of others) is meaningless. And more important, that all the love and joy I experience are equally meaningless, to be snatched away at possibly at moment for no reason, no justice, no point.

I'll answer: Reality is wonderful, and you can spend your time maximizing the value what you know you have and not worrying about afterlife or any other unlikely supernatural thing. It's liberating. And rewarding - you act good because you choose too, which means you ARE good, and not because of fear of eternal retribution. I have many more reasons, but for this thread and your question that should suffice.

What confuses me is how suffering in meaningful? Why would it make more sense that a supreme being was permitting your suffering (when they could change it), rather than the fact that it is simply an unfortunate part of life?

Even more confusing: how would love and joy be meaningless in any context? (Aside from that being logically impossible).

Love and joy would just be meaningless neurotransmitters firing. As would be your “choice” to do good.

That's demonstrably false, and dumb as well, as it is logically impossible. How could joy not be joyful? It's a square circle. Not possible.

Joy can be joyful and also have no “meaning.” Meaning is just a value you assign to something. If you don’t value joy, then it’s meaningless.

Time to treat your anxiety and depression, OP.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the PPs saying losing their faith was a relief, can you explain how? For me, losing faith would mean all my suffering (and suffering of others) is meaningless. And more important, that all the love and joy I experience are equally meaningless, to be snatched away at possibly at moment for no reason, no justice, no point.

I'll answer: Reality is wonderful, and you can spend your time maximizing the value what you know you have and not worrying about afterlife or any other unlikely supernatural thing. It's liberating. And rewarding - you act good because you choose too, which means you ARE good, and not because of fear of eternal retribution. I have many more reasons, but for this thread and your question that should suffice.

What confuses me is how suffering in meaningful? Why would it make more sense that a supreme being was permitting your suffering (when they could change it), rather than the fact that it is simply an unfortunate part of life?

Even more confusing: how would love and joy be meaningless in any context? (Aside from that being logically impossible).

Love and joy would just be meaningless neurotransmitters firing. As would be your “choice” to do good.

That's demonstrably false, and dumb as well, as it is logically impossible. How could joy not be joyful? It's a square circle. Not possible.

It’s not a lie OP and you know this.
God loves you and cares for you.

Anonymous wrote:For the PPs saying losing their faith was a relief, can you explain how? For me, losing faith would mean all my suffering (and suffering of others) is meaningless. And more important, that all the love and joy I experience are equally meaningless, to be snatched away at possibly at moment for no reason, no justice, no point.

I’ll take a stab at this. Not trying to convince anyone, and I’m not really a “prostletyzing” atheist, so I’m truly approaching this respectfully to all. But I want to offer an idea of where people like us are coming from.

Basically, to me, my loss of faith has helped me realize that this life is all I have. And if this life is all I have, I had better make sure I love it fully and try to commit to the moments of joy (rather than hate the human world and constantly judge it in the hopes that something “better” awaits). And I think that if more people accepted that if this life is all we have, they would - on balance - treat people better rather than worse. Is there suffering? Of course. But it’s easier for me to accept random, pointless, awful suffering than that suffering is God’s “plan.” On a daily basis, children are being painfully, horrifically ravaged by random diseases like cancer. Far better in my view that that be a random terrible occurrence of nature than it be the design of an all-powerful creator who supposedly loves us and yet doles out such horrors while demanding incessant praise and worship.

I do miss things about my faith. I wish I could believe that I’d be reunited in a paradise with my father, my brother, or other loved ones. But because I no longer believe, those consolations seem to me quite false, and I find myself glad that I (believe) I’ve discovered the truth rather than putting my hopes in something that never comes.