To improve education we need to have a multi-fauceted approach:
-The profession of teaching needs more autonomy, and more respect. Would you encourage a bright kid to go into teaching? No? Why not? They get crap from parents and principals- that needs to change. They need to be allowed to do what they are trained to do and do well.
-We need to pay teacher more. They are underpaid (even if you count summers off), their pensions were cut ages ago and even their share of health insurance is starting to rival the private sector

Until these 2 things happen, teaching will continue to go down the tubes

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Smaller classes and removal of violent kids

I don't even know if classes need to be that much smaller. Just remove the violent and direspectful kids from the building entirely. Spin up more alternative schools where these kids have to go and have the system and the legal system back schools up when parents complain that kids are sent there. Does your poor attempt at gentle parenting make your kid a monster? Then you both suffer the consequences, and the only person I am sorry for is your kid. Maybe the alternative schools could also offer night classes in effective parenting.

You can have smaller classes, but the teachers will, on average, be worse, or bigger classes but the teachers, on average, will be better.

Since statistically there's not much difference in student outcomes between a class of fifteen and a class of forty-five, reducing class sizes doesn't seem like that great an idea.

15 papers to grade versus 45. The workload just tripled for the teacher.

In a historically low performing, high-poverty, high-ESOL school, class of 28-30 are absolutely unworkable. Larger class sizes are fine if 95% of the students are on grade level.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pay teachers more. Better pay = better teachers.

I think the funds would be better spent by reducing the credentials needed for teaching to a 2-year vocational program, reducing teacher compensation by 35%-50%, but then hiring twice to three times as many teachers to reduce class sizes to no more than 15 kids per class.

Which is to say that academic outcomes will improve more with a greater number of less-qualified teachers, than with fewer but higher-qualified teachers.

Peer reviewed research does not support this approach. I'm not interested in having my kid taught by someone making 30k per year, who can't afford to either live near school or have decent transportation.

The correlation between class size and results is also low.

If you really believe this, then we don't need many teachers at all -- simply bump classrooms up the size of college lecture halls.

The studies PP is talking about look at comparisons between 20 kids and 30 kids or numbers like that. And therefore that's most likely what PP means. Getting it down to 15 kids a class probably won't make a difference.

My oldest has always had 29-30 kids in each class in ES. My youngest has always had 18-20. I haven't seen a measurable difference in their educations (some of the same teachers, mostly same curriculum) or even the classroom discipline. I'd rather 2 good teachers than 3 mediocre ones so we could go from 30 kids/class to 20.

Anonymous wrote:Give up and be okay with the idea that you can’t treat everyone equitably. If kids can’t behave in a classroom setting, they need to removed from said classroom. Screw their fair and adequate education. Mainly focus on those who want to learn.

This. Equity is a race to the bottom.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pay teachers more. Better pay = better teachers.

I think the funds would be better spent by reducing the credentials needed for teaching to a 2-year vocational program, reducing teacher compensation by 35%-50%, but then hiring twice to three times as many teachers to reduce class sizes to no more than 15 kids per class.

Which is to say that academic outcomes will improve more with a greater number of less-qualified teachers, than with fewer but higher-qualified teachers.

So you want calculus or AP chem taught by someone making 50k a year? I'm sure that will go well

This is a fair point. For students that are sufficiently academically advanced to take (and, likely with high correlation, sufficient self-disciplined to attend and pay attention in) calculus or AP chem, schools could probably increase class sizes tremendously. Those students have hit the point of teaching themselves anyway, with the teacher providing an introductory lecture on concepts and principles. There's almost certainly a break point (currently, it is between high school and college) where students that are already performing well can do so with less instructional attention. For students that haven't attained that level of achievement and self-discipline, smaller classes would be better.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pay teachers more. Better pay = better teachers.

I think the funds would be better spent by reducing the credentials needed for teaching to a 2-year vocational program, reducing teacher compensation by 35%-50%, but then hiring twice to three times as many teachers to reduce class sizes to no more than 15 kids per class.

Which is to say that academic outcomes will improve more with a greater number of less-qualified teachers, than with fewer but higher-qualified teachers.

Peer reviewed research does not support this approach. I'm not interested in having my kid taught by someone making 30k per year, who can't afford to either live near school or have decent transportation.

The correlation between class size and results is also low.

If you really believe this, then we don't need many teachers at all -- simply bump classrooms up the size of college lecture halls.

Pay teachers better to attract more people to the field.

Year round school, with breaks. Or at least a vastly shortened summer, maybe 6-7 weeks July 1- August 15th-ish. Prevents summer learning loss, and teachers on a year round contract would get paid as year round employees and thus make more money.

Remove violent students to alternative schools quickly, and encourage a lot more vocational education at the HS level for kids who aren’t succeeding at college prep courses. You may be surprised who does very well in, say, an auto body tech or landscaping management course vs. 7 hours of math, English, history etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pay teachers more. Better pay = better teachers.

I think the funds would be better spent by reducing the credentials needed for teaching to a 2-year vocational program, reducing teacher compensation by 35%-50%, but then hiring twice to three times as many teachers to reduce class sizes to no more than 15 kids per class.

Which is to say that academic outcomes will improve more with a greater number of less-qualified teachers, than with fewer but higher-qualified teachers.

Peer reviewed research does not support this approach. I'm not interested in having my kid taught by someone making 30k per year, who can't afford to either live near school or have decent transportation.

The correlation between class size and results is also low.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pay teachers more. Better pay = better teachers.

I think the funds would be better spent by reducing the credentials needed for teaching to a 2-year vocational program, reducing teacher compensation by 35%-50%, but then hiring twice to three times as many teachers to reduce class sizes to no more than 15 kids per class.

Which is to say that academic outcomes will improve more with a greater number of less-qualified teachers, than with fewer but higher-qualified teachers.

So you want calculus or AP chem taught by someone making 50k a year? I'm sure that will go well

Anonymous wrote:Pay teachers more. Better pay = better teachers.

I think the funds would be better spent by reducing the credentials needed for teaching to a 2-year vocational program, reducing teacher compensation by 35%-50%, but then hiring twice to three times as many teachers to reduce class sizes to no more than 15 kids per class.

Which is to say that academic outcomes will improve more with a greater number of less-qualified teachers, than with fewer but higher-qualified teachers.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Smaller classes and removal of violent kids

I don't even know if classes need to be that much smaller. Just remove the violent and direspectful kids from the building entirely. Spin up more alternative schools where these kids have to go and have the system and the legal system back schools up when parents complain that kids are sent there. Does your poor attempt at gentle parenting make your kid a monster? Then you both suffer the consequences, and the only person I am sorry for is your kid. Maybe the alternative schools could also offer night classes in effective parenting.

You can have smaller classes, but the teachers will, on average, be worse, or bigger classes but the teachers, on average, will be better.

Since statistically there's not much difference in student outcomes between a class of fifteen and a class of forty-five, reducing class sizes doesn't seem like that great an idea.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Pay teachers more. Better pay = better teachers.

If we eliminate the fat pensions, we can pay them market and just give em 401ks like everyone else.

^ market for 180 days worked and typically 20 sick days which seems to be the norm around here

Anonymous wrote:Pay teachers more. Better pay = better teachers.

If we eliminate the fat pensions, we can pay them market and just give em 401ks like everyone else.

Anonymous wrote:Smaller classes and removal of violent kids

I don't even know if classes need to be that much smaller. Just remove the violent and direspectful kids from the building entirely. Spin up more alternative schools where these kids have to go and have the system and the legal system back schools up when parents complain that kids are sent there. Does your poor attempt at gentle parenting make your kid a monster? Then you both suffer the consequences, and the only person I am sorry for is your kid. Maybe the alternative schools could also offer night classes in effective parenting.