Anonymous wrote:"Experts"

LOL for days.

If an article says, "According to experts" I tune out.

And all that BS COVID crap they pushed is to blame. Doesn't matter what the article is about, not listening!

Um, . . . Dr. Marisa Franco is a full, tenured professor at the prestigious University of Maryland. Furthermore, she’s an extensively published author, and her work has further been published in the Wall Street Journal, etc.

What have YOU done, PP ?

Anonymous wrote:I am so confused. Do people really need "experts" and a fake news article to know that those are rude things to say to people?

Yes, because my family said every single of one of these things to be from early childhood on. My cousins and I talk about how we raised our children differently, so they could tell abuse from support. Family members who didn't receive or pursue more education and / or therapy still act the same way.

You don't know what you don't know.

I saw this article and said, wow, this would have really helped me 20 years ago.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The author’s book interests me because she refers to attachment styles, which I recently learned about.

My abusive upbringing led me to not know how to apologize. I struggled mightily with this with my spouse. As a kid, being wrong was not safe and you had to hide being wrong or risk verbal and emotional abuse.

Now I can easily admit to mistakes without quaking in my boots and can apologize appropriately too.

I’m all for giving so-called toxic people a second chance and then ending the relationship if a resolution can’t be found.

A distinction can be made between toxic narcissists or toxic people who won’t change and those who don’t know betters ways to be yet. In the latter case, a second chance can be nice.

I definitely think it's worth it to give someone an second (or third or fourth etc. chance) and work on the relationship when it's a family member, spouse, longtime friend, etc. But there is a phrase: "your growth was my trauma." Often working through things means undergoing severe emotional distress that can remain even after the problem is resolved. It's best for people to see these issues early and refuse to continue to invest in the relationship before they change. But I'm glad things worked out for you (and presumably your spouse).

You make good points.

Whether someone decides to give a second (or more chance) may depend on how strong they feel, their background, the closeness of the relationship, and so on. I've given a second chance, had it go sideways, and then been ghosted. I wasn't particularly traumatized by being ghosted because I realized that person had deep problems that didn't have to do with me.

A mentally ill family member wants to "talk about" things, but they don't apologize for their behavior. I don't have any hopes we will get anywhere, so I declined.

^explains why you should NOT make jokes at your friend's expense

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes, though, your feelings really ARE the problem. Sometimes people really ARE too sensitive, and/or can’t take a joke. That’s probably why those people eventually get met with point 8 from the article.

You shouldn't make jokes at another person's expense. Once they tell you they don't like it, then you're the problem if you keep doing it.

Strongly disagree. If it’s actually joking and not intended maliciously. And yes it is harsh, but so many people really are just too GD sensitive these days and it makes basic human interactions exhausting.

And I realize this is a hot take, but just because you have “feelings” about something doesn’t mean that they are “valid”… sometimes you actually ARE just wrong! Sometimes you really have misinterpreted something. And sometimes it’s just your opinion and others don’t have to agree with (or even respect) that.

For evidence that most of you actually deep down agree with this, just think about whatever someone on the exact opposite side of the political spectrum might say about their “feelings” on some issue that you also feel strongly about. I’ll bet you have zero interest in making that person feel heard, or “validating” them. You just think they’re wrong and/or stupid and/or a bad person.

But your last paragraph actually explains why you should make jokes at your friend's expense. Sure, there are people are I think are just wrong or unethical or whatever. And if someone like that said that something I said hurt their feelings, I don't really care because it's not my job to take care of their feelings.

But we're talking about friendships. I don't become friends with people I think are fundamentally wrong or stupid. So different rules apply. With a friend there should be a baseline level of deference. You should not be cracking jokes at your friend's expense to begin with, and if you do and they are hurt, you should apologize and stop out of respect for them and the relationship.

Also, being made fun of by a friend, or having a friend refuse to apologize or continue a hurtful behavior, is so much more harmful than someone you don't know or might even fundamentally dislike.
Your friends are supposed to want you to be happy, or at least not want to cause you pain. If I tell a friend " it really hurts when you do X" I expect them to give a damn about my feelings. Otherwise why are we even friends?

Anonymous wrote:I am so confused. Do people really need "experts" and a fake news article to know that those are rude things to say to people?

I see you haven’t met my mother, my aunts, or my cousin.

Anonymous wrote:The author’s book interests me because she refers to attachment styles, which I recently learned about.

My abusive upbringing led me to not know how to apologize. I struggled mightily with this with my spouse. As a kid, being wrong was not safe and you had to hide being wrong or risk verbal and emotional abuse.

Now I can easily admit to mistakes without quaking in my boots and can apologize appropriately too.

I’m all for giving so-called toxic people a second chance and then ending the relationship if a resolution can’t be found.

A distinction can be made between toxic narcissists or toxic people who won’t change and those who don’t know betters ways to be yet. In the latter case, a second chance can be nice.

Good, and I agree

I am so confused. Do people really need "experts" and a fake news article to know that those are rude things to say to people?

Anonymous wrote:The author’s book interests me because she refers to attachment styles, which I recently learned about.

My abusive upbringing led me to not know how to apologize. I struggled mightily with this with my spouse. As a kid, being wrong was not safe and you had to hide being wrong or risk verbal and emotional abuse.

Now I can easily admit to mistakes without quaking in my boots and can apologize appropriately too.

I’m all for giving so-called toxic people a second chance and then ending the relationship if a resolution can’t be found.

A distinction can be made between toxic narcissists or toxic people who won’t change and those who don’t know betters ways to be yet. In the latter case, a second chance can be nice.

I definitely think it's worth it to give someone an second (or third or fourth etc. chance) and work on the relationship when it's a family member, spouse, longtime friend, etc. But there is a phrase: "your growth was my trauma." Often working through things means undergoing severe emotional distress that can remain even after the problem is resolved. It's best for people to see these issues early and refuse to continue to invest in the relationship before they change. But I'm glad things worked out for you (and presumably your spouse).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sometimes, though, your feelings really ARE the problem. Sometimes people really ARE too sensitive, and/or can’t take a joke. That’s probably why those people eventually get met with point 8 from the article.

You shouldn't make jokes at another person's expense. Once they tell you they don't like it, then you're the problem if you keep doing it.

Strongly disagree. If it’s actually joking and not intended maliciously. And yes it is harsh, but so many people really are just too GD sensitive these days and it makes basic human interactions exhausting.

And I realize this is a hot take, but just because you have “feelings” about something doesn’t mean that they are “valid”… sometimes you actually ARE just wrong! Sometimes you really have misinterpreted something. And sometimes it’s just your opinion and others don’t have to agree with (or even respect) that.

For evidence that most of you actually deep down agree with this, just think about whatever someone on the exact opposite side of the political spectrum might say about their “feelings” on some issue that you also feel strongly about. I’ll bet you have zero interest in making that person feel heard, or “validating” them. You just think they’re wrong and/or stupid and/or a bad person.

I personally disagree with the idea that if something isn't intended maliciously, it's okay to say. Of course there are people who overreact (and maybe all of us at some point or another do take things too personally), but I hope people understand that we are accountable for not just our intent but the impacts of our words as well.

Anonymous wrote:The moment I see the word "expert" I stop paying attention.

Baitclick.

It’s a clinical psychologist at the University of Maryland.

Do you mean “clickbait”?

Anonymous wrote:I have ex-friends who have said many of these. But I figured out they were toxic.

"You're too sensitive," "I was just joking," and "I'm sorry you feel that way" tend to travel as a matched set, IME. Here are some others that are along the same lines that I've learned are actually very disrespectful:

"That's just my sense of humor."
"I'm just playing devil's advocate."

But really it's about how people treat you overall, not specific things they say. Do they respect you? When you express your feelings to them about how they treat you, are they interested in finding a solution that works for both of you, or annoyed at the idea that they might have to modify behavior a little? Can they admit when they are wrong?

You are so right on with your observation about the “matched set.” That is SUCH a trifecta.

The author’s book interests me because she refers to attachment styles, which I recently learned about.

My abusive upbringing led me to not know how to apologize. I struggled mightily with this with my spouse. As a kid, being wrong was not safe and you had to hide being wrong or risk verbal and emotional abuse.

Now I can easily admit to mistakes without quaking in my boots and can apologize appropriately too.

I’m all for giving so-called toxic people a second chance and then ending the relationship if a resolution can’t be found.

A distinction can be made between toxic narcissists or toxic people who won’t change and those who don’t know betters ways to be yet. In the latter case, a second chance can be nice.