Anonymous
12/03/2023 16:19
Subject: schools that got rid of AP
So far, top 3/5/7 privates in metro DC who stopped labeling courses “AP” but which kept offering the exams to their own students continue to have similarly good admissions outcomes to universities - including to T20, T50, and top publics, including to the UC system. Any school always has had a little admissions variation from year to year, depending on strengths of a particular cohort of students, but there seems to be no obvious downward trend across the top schools.
Each person ought to do what is best for their own DC. Different kids are different. Different families have different priorities. Different schools (whether public or private) are different.
If folks want courses labeled AP because they believe that is best for their family/ children, then by all means pick schools which offer those.
Each person ought to do what is best for their own DC. Different kids are different. Different families have different priorities. Different schools (whether public or private) are different.
If folks want courses labeled AP because they believe that is best for their family/ children, then by all means pick schools which offer those.
Anonymous
12/03/2023 12:50
Subject: schools that got rid of AP
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Private schools can and do still indicate high-level/added rigor courses on the transcript, and grades should be weighted accordingly. My understanding is that dropping AP is more about choosing not to teach specifically to a test. Wish there were a private hs counselor in here, they could explain it better than I.
That was the line they gave parents, but the truth is that there are many ways to teach an AP class (as evidenced by the kids who self teach and take tests). Some schools offer 15 different versions of AP Language and Literature, for example. Either they didn't really understand what the college board required in a curriculum, they didn't know how to write a curriculum, or they were not being fully transparent.
This is true for some AP courses, but teaching all of the required elements of some AP classes crowds out other valuable skills and content. For example, if you want to teach kids how to do a research paper, it is difficult to squeeze in. If you teach AP history, which are meant to mirror college survey courses, it can be difficult to slow down and teach some content more deeply, or to spend more time on strong historical writing. In fact, many teachers are teaching kids not even to quote historical documents in their essays "because it doesn't get you any points" on the AP exam.
There are also certain expectations from the College Board that definitely drive how you spend your time. For example, I taught AP Euro last year and spent maybe 5 minutes on the fact that Haiti revolted against France, focusing on the impacts on France. Then the kids took the exam in May and the DBQ was based on the Haitian Revolution. Now I might have to decide to spend a lot more time teaching about how the Europeans impacted people all over the world, in order to ensure that my students would do well on future tests. But, personally, I think that belongs in World History and that our limited time in AP Euro should be spent learning the background/context of European (and therefore, American) culture and events. After awhile, it gets irritating following the constant re-designs, etc.
Finally, there have been some real changes to the exams that degrade course expectations. I have been teaching AP courses for 15 years and generally support the program, but I can see why some schools wouldn't want to bother.
You could attempt to make the same argument for STEM classes, like the pace is so fast that you don’t have time to go deeper into some areas or do a larger project (lab, paper, research) as part of the class. While I agree to some extent, in the end you need to put the interest of the student first. These high school classes are meant to give a broad knowledge for introductory college level classes. If the student is interested in going deeper there is the route of seminar, research, elective extracurriculars etc. to me this argument always looks like a way to give up accountability.
Anonymous
12/03/2023 12:34
Subject: schools that got rid of AP
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Private schools can and do still indicate high-level/added rigor courses on the transcript, and grades should be weighted accordingly. My understanding is that dropping AP is more about choosing not to teach specifically to a test. Wish there were a private hs counselor in here, they could explain it better than I.
That was the line they gave parents, but the truth is that there are many ways to teach an AP class (as evidenced by the kids who self teach and take tests). Some schools offer 15 different versions of AP Language and Literature, for example. Either they didn't really understand what the college board required in a curriculum, they didn't know how to write a curriculum, or they were not being fully transparent.
This is true for some AP courses, but teaching all of the required elements of some AP classes crowds out other valuable skills and content. For example, if you want to teach kids how to do a research paper, it is difficult to squeeze in. If you teach AP history, which are meant to mirror college survey courses, it can be difficult to slow down and teach some content more deeply, or to spend more time on strong historical writing. In fact, many teachers are teaching kids not even to quote historical documents in their essays "because it doesn't get you any points" on the AP exam.
There are also certain expectations from the College Board that definitely drive how you spend your time. For example, I taught AP Euro last year and spent maybe 5 minutes on the fact that Haiti revolted against France, focusing on the impacts on France. Then the kids took the exam in May and the DBQ was based on the Haitian Revolution. Now I might have to decide to spend a lot more time teaching about how the Europeans impacted people all over the world, in order to ensure that my students would do well on future tests. But, personally, I think that belongs in World History and that our limited time in AP Euro should be spent learning the background/context of European (and therefore, American) culture and events. After awhile, it gets irritating following the constant re-designs, etc.
Finally, there have been some real changes to the exams that degrade course expectations. I have been teaching AP courses for 15 years and generally support the program, but I can see why some schools wouldn't want to bother.
All of that may be true, but students who don’t have rigorous AP coursework are still at a disadvantage when applying to large public university systems like the PP above you outlined.
Anonymous
12/03/2023 12:25
Subject: schools that got rid of AP
Anonymous wrote:I'd be very interested in seeing the data. I'm not sure how'd you quantify it though. The college acceptance environment has been very dynamic regardless of a few private schools dropping AP classes. It's far more competitive and unpredictable than it was ten years ago. But I think schools that dropped APs are likely experiencing poorer outcomes.
Now that most schools are test optional, GPA and class rigor are much more important. Some public universities like UCLA and Berkeley are getting more than 125,000 applicants per year. And most of those applicants are going to be quite good students with numerous APs and a GPA that reflects that. I don't see how a bright kid with no APs and a 3.7 from faraway GDS is even remotely competitive in an environment where there are tens of thousands of applicants with a dozen APs and a 4.7 GPA. You are assuming a level of expertise at the particular situation at GDS or whatever private that is not going to happen among readers who are working through thousands of applications from all over the country. And that will be the norm at almost every large competitive university in the US. I'm sure it's different at LACs where they know GDS and have a long relationship. But for the large selective universities, it's got to hurt. It's an immediate disadvantage. First appearances matter - and the first appearance will be comparatively weak class rigor and low GPA.
There will be similar problems applying to schools in Canada and Europe. The entire application for McGill or University of Toronto or LSE are numbers. You either have the minimum GPA, SAT/ACT, and AP scores or you do not. Whether you went to public or private doesn't matter. They are not nuanced applications.
Also the lack of APs in certain private schools probably particularly hurts the STEM kids the most. For those that want to do engineering or computers science, colleges want to know whether the student can handle or is grounded in AP Calculus BC, AP Multivariable, AP Physics and so on. Whether a private school student can manage a 5 in French language and literature is much less important than do they demonstrate competence in fundamental STEM classes, which are nearly always AP classes, particularly calculus BC. I'd bet a nickel that the magnet schools and the good publics are placing significantly more kids at elite STEM schools like MIT and elsewhere compared to the privates that dropped AP classes.
Our Big 3 dropped AP courses several years ago, but kids continued to take and perform well on AP exams, including in STEM. Generally, though, a teacher would have to pay attention to the overall content that would be tested, even if they didn't label their course as an AP class.
Anonymous
12/03/2023 12:23
Subject: schools that got rid of AP
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Private schools can and do still indicate high-level/added rigor courses on the transcript, and grades should be weighted accordingly. My understanding is that dropping AP is more about choosing not to teach specifically to a test. Wish there were a private hs counselor in here, they could explain it better than I.
That was the line they gave parents, but the truth is that there are many ways to teach an AP class (as evidenced by the kids who self teach and take tests). Some schools offer 15 different versions of AP Language and Literature, for example. Either they didn't really understand what the college board required in a curriculum, they didn't know how to write a curriculum, or they were not being fully transparent.
This is true for some AP courses, but teaching all of the required elements of some AP classes crowds out other valuable skills and content. For example, if you want to teach kids how to do a research paper, it is difficult to squeeze in. If you teach AP history, which are meant to mirror college survey courses, it can be difficult to slow down and teach some content more deeply, or to spend more time on strong historical writing. In fact, many teachers are teaching kids not even to quote historical documents in their essays "because it doesn't get you any points" on the AP exam.
There are also certain expectations from the College Board that definitely drive how you spend your time. For example, I taught AP Euro last year and spent maybe 5 minutes on the fact that Haiti revolted against France, focusing on the impacts on France. Then the kids took the exam in May and the DBQ was based on the Haitian Revolution. Now I might have to decide to spend a lot more time teaching about how the Europeans impacted people all over the world, in order to ensure that my students would do well on future tests. But, personally, I think that belongs in World History and that our limited time in AP Euro should be spent learning the background/context of European (and therefore, American) culture and events. After awhile, it gets irritating following the constant re-designs, etc.
Finally, there have been some real changes to the exams that degrade course expectations. I have been teaching AP courses for 15 years and generally support the program, but I can see why some schools wouldn't want to bother.
Anonymous
12/03/2023 12:15
Subject: schools that got rid of AP
Agree 100% with the above, I am so surprised there was no push back from the parents at the time. Access to advanced coursework is the main reason we’re not going private for our stem oriented student.
Anonymous
12/03/2023 02:30
Subject: schools that got rid of AP
I'd be very interested in seeing the data. I'm not sure how'd you quantify it though. The college acceptance environment has been very dynamic regardless of a few private schools dropping AP classes. It's far more competitive and unpredictable than it was ten years ago. But I think schools that dropped APs are likely experiencing poorer outcomes.
Now that most schools are test optional, GPA and class rigor are much more important. Some public universities like UCLA and Berkeley are getting more than 125,000 applicants per year. And most of those applicants are going to be quite good students with numerous APs and a GPA that reflects that. I don't see how a bright kid with no APs and a 3.7 from faraway GDS is even remotely competitive in an environment where there are tens of thousands of applicants with a dozen APs and a 4.7 GPA. You are assuming a level of expertise at the particular situation at GDS or whatever private that is not going to happen among readers who are working through thousands of applications from all over the country. And that will be the norm at almost every large competitive university in the US. I'm sure it's different at LACs where they know GDS and have a long relationship. But for the large selective universities, it's got to hurt. It's an immediate disadvantage. First appearances matter - and the first appearance will be comparatively weak class rigor and low GPA.
There will be similar problems applying to schools in Canada and Europe. The entire application for McGill or University of Toronto or LSE are numbers. You either have the minimum GPA, SAT/ACT, and AP scores or you do not. Whether you went to public or private doesn't matter. They are not nuanced applications.
Also the lack of APs in certain private schools probably particularly hurts the STEM kids the most. For those that want to do engineering or computers science, colleges want to know whether the student can handle or is grounded in AP Calculus BC, AP Multivariable, AP Physics and so on. Whether a private school student can manage a 5 in French language and literature is much less important than do they demonstrate competence in fundamental STEM classes, which are nearly always AP classes, particularly calculus BC. I'd bet a nickel that the magnet schools and the good publics are placing significantly more kids at elite STEM schools like MIT and elsewhere compared to the privates that dropped AP classes.
Now that most schools are test optional, GPA and class rigor are much more important. Some public universities like UCLA and Berkeley are getting more than 125,000 applicants per year. And most of those applicants are going to be quite good students with numerous APs and a GPA that reflects that. I don't see how a bright kid with no APs and a 3.7 from faraway GDS is even remotely competitive in an environment where there are tens of thousands of applicants with a dozen APs and a 4.7 GPA. You are assuming a level of expertise at the particular situation at GDS or whatever private that is not going to happen among readers who are working through thousands of applications from all over the country. And that will be the norm at almost every large competitive university in the US. I'm sure it's different at LACs where they know GDS and have a long relationship. But for the large selective universities, it's got to hurt. It's an immediate disadvantage. First appearances matter - and the first appearance will be comparatively weak class rigor and low GPA.
There will be similar problems applying to schools in Canada and Europe. The entire application for McGill or University of Toronto or LSE are numbers. You either have the minimum GPA, SAT/ACT, and AP scores or you do not. Whether you went to public or private doesn't matter. They are not nuanced applications.
Also the lack of APs in certain private schools probably particularly hurts the STEM kids the most. For those that want to do engineering or computers science, colleges want to know whether the student can handle or is grounded in AP Calculus BC, AP Multivariable, AP Physics and so on. Whether a private school student can manage a 5 in French language and literature is much less important than do they demonstrate competence in fundamental STEM classes, which are nearly always AP classes, particularly calculus BC. I'd bet a nickel that the magnet schools and the good publics are placing significantly more kids at elite STEM schools like MIT and elsewhere compared to the privates that dropped AP classes.
Anonymous
12/03/2023 01:52
Subject: schools that got rid of AP
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I am more concerned that my kid who took all
the hard classes will have trouble getting into school in this tough environment. We assumed that the advanced classes would come across the same to colleges. They are very hard. I am not sure how you overcome missing the extra points given to AP classes.
You don’t. The seems pretty bad OP.
College admissions officers know which classes at any given school are the most rigorous, and any "extra points" are given for those courses. At some schools those are "AP" at others, they have different designations. This information is outlined very clearly in the school profile shared with admissions offices.
How would the admissions officers at UC Berkeley would know the calculus at X high school is ‘rigorous’? It’s almost funny that you think a school profile brochure trumps an independent audit and the exam rigor, security, difficulty and relevance that an AP exam has.
Anonymous
12/03/2023 01:42
Subject: schools that got rid of AP
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Why would a school get rid of AP classes? It doesn't just give a GPA boost, it lets you earn college credits. I know kids who started college with sophomore standing.
Schools don't call the class "AP" so they don't have to follow the AP curriculum. But students are prepared to take the AP test, which is the factor that determines whether or not you (may) receive college credit.
My daughter's school did away with the AP title for their highest rigor classes, but she has taken three AP tests and received 5s on all.
Also, the colleges don't recalculate based on the description of the class (AP, honors, etc) they evaluate based on the RIGOR of the course offered.
Our school clearly outlines which classes is the most rigorous in the school profile that is shared with colleges.
It's very clear which classes are the highest rigor, and of course, the kids' performance on the AP tests are clear indication of their preparation to succeed in college level courses.
The AP designation is an independent way to validate the rigor of a class. In the absence of this external check one would have to believe the high school that the course is rigorous or to use another independent verification like surprise! the AP exams.
Many of those courses at private schools are rigorous and on par with AP classes. However I can’t take seriously the claim they gave up the AP designation to teach the class better. This argument alone discredits their credibility. They just do it out of self interest to avoid direct comparison with public schools at the expense of their students prospects in college admissions.
I’d be worried for their students that will graduate 3-4 years from now, because it puts a huge question mark on two of the most important factors in admissions: rigor and grades.
Anonymous
12/02/2023 20:32
Subject: schools that got rid of AP
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I am more concerned that my kid who took all
the hard classes will have trouble getting into school in this tough environment. We assumed that the advanced classes would come across the same to colleges. They are very hard. I am not sure how you overcome missing the extra points given to AP classes.
You don’t. The seems pretty bad OP.
College admissions officers know which classes at any given school are the most rigorous, and any "extra points" are given for those courses. At some schools those are "AP" at others, they have different designations. This information is outlined very clearly in the school profile shared with admissions offices.
Anonymous
12/02/2023 20:25
Subject: schools that got rid of AP
Anonymous wrote:Why would a school get rid of AP classes? It doesn't just give a GPA boost, it lets you earn college credits. I know kids who started college with sophomore standing.
Schools don't call the class "AP" so they don't have to follow the AP curriculum. But students are prepared to take the AP test, which is the factor that determines whether or not you (may) receive college credit.
My daughter's school did away with the AP title for their highest rigor classes, but she has taken three AP tests and received 5s on all.
Also, the colleges don't recalculate based on the description of the class (AP, honors, etc) they evaluate based on the RIGOR of the course offered.
Our school clearly outlines which classes is the most rigorous in the school profile that is shared with colleges.
It's very clear which classes are the highest rigor, and of course, the kids' performance on the AP tests are clear indication of their preparation to succeed in college level courses.
Anonymous
12/02/2023 20:05
Subject: schools that got rid of AP
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Many private school transcripts never printed the letters “AP”. So in those cases former HS Biology AP classes would print on the transcript as “Biology ADV” instead. Surprise, many of those schools still print “Biology ADV” on the transcript for the course which no longer is labeled AP” in the internal course catalog.
Regardless, for the schools I am thinking about, they still offer on-site AP exams for their students and encourage students to sit the AP exams. Colleges are happy to see students sit the exams, and are less hung up about the precise name of the course.
DCUM begs to differ of course, reality not withstanding.
That’s 100% not true. Link to the course catalog from before where an AP class was labeled ADV.
I’ll give you that the classes may be rigorous, but that doesn’t mean they will be given the same weight as an AP class. In the UC system for example, those students are at a disadvantage.
Potomac has said this explicitly, and several other private schools are playing the same game. Mind, Potomac still offers nearly any AP *test* at Potomac during school hours (regardless of whether the class is labeled AP), unlike some DCUM reports about GDS.
Anonymous
11/20/2023 11:24
Subject: Re:schools that got rid of AP
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My DD is a junior at a DMV private that does not offer AP classes. She has taken three AP exams last year, language, US history, French. She got 5s on all of them, with minimum prep, and a few pointers from the teachers. She found the AP exams easy, except the French one!
Some of the schools are not offering the exams and the kids can't find a place to take them.
That would be GDS. Any others?
What is GDS?
Anonymous
11/20/2023 10:02
Subject: Re:schools that got rid of AP
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My DD is a junior at a DMV private that does not offer AP classes. She has taken three AP exams last year, language, US history, French. She got 5s on all of them, with minimum prep, and a few pointers from the teachers. She found the AP exams easy, except the French one!
Some of the schools are not offering the exams and the kids can't find a place to take them.
That would be GDS. Any others?
Anonymous
11/20/2023 09:56
Subject: schools that got rid of AP
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I was supportive of this decision initially but am now rethinking. I have been looking at various college websites and many colleges recalculate GPA and add a point per AP class. Our school also also doesn’t weight the advanced classes. There are notes on the transcript but suddenly thinking this could be a problem that was never discussed. Our school has a very difficult curriculum for kids taking advanced. You could conceivably have kids who didn’t take advanced looking like the same student who didn’t take advanced and even worse when you compare schools with AP. I know several schools got rid of AP. How did this all work out?
Which FCPS schools have done this?
OP - can you post a list of schools which eliminated AP altogether ?
To my knowledge, this is only a thing at elite privates.