We use a prong collar with rubber tips. It’s only on for walks and has a quicl release jic. Ours is a larger breed puppy and she’s much safer with this than the harness which did nothing to slow her down. I’d much rather the occasional easily corrected pinch than both of us being pulled into traffic. We DO use positive reinforcement as well and training. Both are needed with some dogs. When she’s older we can go back to the martingale.

Aversive methods work, and you shouldn't confuse them with inflicting pain. I know this is VERY HARD for most posters to understand.

I use a prong collar on my dog. I've tried e-collars as well, but his huge neck ruff defeats the circuitry. He's a very active sled dog, and when he pulls, he can pull your arm off.

But he's not stupid. When he sees someone reaching for his regular collar, he will pull to his heart's content, and trigger medical bills for the human. When he sees someone reaching for the prongs, he's going to measure his lunges and stride accurately so as never to cause himself pain. The prongs are blunt, his ruff is incredibly thick, so he still pulls! But not to the point of the human needing physical therapy for months.

There will always be circumstances where prong and other methods are necessary. I say this as someone who has fostered and trained rescued dogs for years and years. I've never had to use aversive methods on ANY OF THEM. But my own dog was born with physical and mental characteristics that defeat standard methods.

Regarding "professional" trainers: most trainers in my area are froufrou people who can't handle anything more than moderate issues. Their clients are usually wealthy families who can't be bothered to train for bathroom and bite inhibition - the basics of puppy education! But show them a really difficult dog (my dog isn't the only one I know who has a real problem), and they can't deal. The tiny minority of trainers who aren't froufrou have connections to police dog training and it's e-collar all the way. Which doesn't work on my dog, as described above.

So you can sit back down, OP. You know nothing.

Op you sound way more concerned about the dog than your elderly friend who could be hurt by this unruly animal.

NP, We tried the Zak George approach with our sweet natured, but extremely strong large breed dog. He can be walking beautifully along side me, but if there's something he wants to sniff or sees a squirrel, all bets are off and he pulls. I've been pulled down 3 times and have had cuts/bruises. A family member ended up in the ER with a broken arm.

We're not the only ones with stories like this with this breed. We started working with a trainer 1:1 and yes, the prong collar is helping tremendously with curbing the pulling.

It's a safety issue. We love our dog and want to keep him, but we also can't be injured in the process. So, OP, with all due respect, eff off.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Prong collars are perfectly fine for some dogs. The real issue is that many(most?)
owners don't know how to properly use them.

Op Wrong Wrong wrong!

It's 100% accurate and true. You repeating "wrong" over and over doesn't change that at all.

op here. It isn't right. I just didn't have time to be articulate. My argument f you knew you dog than you wouldn't to hurt you dog to get it to listen. One of the main complains of positive training is that you are going to be forever giving treats. But no one ever says but you are going to have to keep using prong collars or shock collars! Then it seen as "just a tool in the toolbox" So what if I have to give treats. People with jobs like to get paid. Isn't that the same thing?

But, Zak George talked about that..que the hate against Zak George I can't find it but it was on Facebook.

You're anthropomorphizing and that tells me you don't really understand dog behavior, the range of dog behaviors/personalities and how to work with them as well as you think you do. You are certainly not alone in this regard.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, check out fenzi dog sports academy. I suspect you would like their philosophy (100% positive reinforcement only). I like that methodology too.

Ideally these people would have adopted or purchased a dog that fit their physical and mental capabilities. But since they didn’t, it would probably be a good idea if they sent their dog to a board and train situation so the dog came back knowing how to walk appropriately.

Teaching a dog to walk properly without using aversives is a long journey. If the dog is reactive, it’s a lifetime of work, every time you go out the door. Sounds like if they aren’t willing to hire out training, the options are prong collar or no walks. Neither is ideal, but a prong is probably the less bad option. A gentle leader, haltie, or east walk harness (front clip) might be a solution if it’s just pulling and not lunging, but a 60 lb dog will drag down most people if lunging toward another person/dog.

Not sure your relationship or if you have the skill set to train leash skills, but could you volunteer to walk it for a few weeks to give it a foundation and see how bad it is?

Op The problem is the dog came out of the dog needing a home immediately and they fell in love. The dog was smaller but, they overfed it so now it is about 70 pounds. One person CAN walk the dog without the prong but, the other who also wants to walk gets pulled down. I suggested that they get a dog walker for one the walker isn't available. But they don't want my solutions

So what is the purpose of this thread? To anonymously shame them? If they don’t want solutions, what are you asking for? Validation?

It's seriously obnoxious, misguided, and should be deleted.

Op here: I did not identify my friends and this is a very common problem. I started this to share the article and discuss how the dog training is changing but, many people who think they are good owners are basing their information on past guidance which is woefully outdated. If this is not of interest to you, fine. But, just because you don't like it that doesn't give you the right to try to shut it down.

To clarify: We talked about training and they wanted my input. But, when I figured out they weren't going to change I told them to stop telling me. Hope that clears up any miscommunication.

OP, I responded in this thread as a proponent of balanced training, which you are correctly noting is old-fashioned and considered outdated and abusive. Never mind the risk of injury to people from positive only training, which you described in your post (getting dragged around which is dangerous and can cause direct or indirect injury) as well as to the potential for harm to the dog, other people and other dogs.

On the parenting forum, the post about the 6 year old brother who misbehaves at bedtime seems parallel - the suggestions are sticker chart or better planning by mom. Positive only training in action. Telling him No! is old-fashioned and outdated and abusive.

Op I never said I was "positive only" Only that I do not use pain to teach my dog. If you understood your dog than you wouldn't either. Let me give you an example. My dog wants to jump and say hi. We turn away and don't pet him until all four paws are on the ground. He learns that to get pets he has to be calm and have his feet on the ground. I don't have to knee him or yell NO! Also, the difference between humans ( even kids) is that they speak your language so you can explain the sticker chart and your rules. Dogs don't and they communicate an entirely different way! Guess what they are different!

https://pethelpful.com/dogs/The-Four-Quadrants-of-Dog-Training

It is dangerous for my friend1 The answer is clear. You can't do everything! Stop walking the dog. After all if a man tried to breastfeed because he wanted to that would be silly right? Or if I had a small dog and wanted him to be a sled dog...ain't going to happen!

But yes, continue on with your training and meanwhile my dog and I have an amazing relationship build on love and trust! He does things for me because he wants to!

OP, I think you should look into veganism. I think the philosophy would appeal to you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Prong collars are perfectly fine for some dogs. The real issue is that many(most?)
owners don't know how to properly use them.

Op Wrong Wrong wrong!

It's 100% accurate and true. You repeating "wrong" over and over doesn't change that at all.

op here. It isn't right. I just didn't have time to be articulate. My argument f you knew you dog than you wouldn't to hurt you dog to get it to listen. One of the main complains of positive training is that you are going to be forever giving treats. But no one ever says but you are going to have to keep using prong collars or shock collars! Then it seen as "just a tool in the toolbox" So what if I have to give treats. People with jobs like to get paid. Isn't that the same thing?

But, Zak George talked about that..que the hate against Zak George I can't find it but it was on Facebook.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, check out fenzi dog sports academy. I suspect you would like their philosophy (100% positive reinforcement only). I like that methodology too.

Ideally these people would have adopted or purchased a dog that fit their physical and mental capabilities. But since they didn’t, it would probably be a good idea if they sent their dog to a board and train situation so the dog came back knowing how to walk appropriately.

Teaching a dog to walk properly without using aversives is a long journey. If the dog is reactive, it’s a lifetime of work, every time you go out the door. Sounds like if they aren’t willing to hire out training, the options are prong collar or no walks. Neither is ideal, but a prong is probably the less bad option. A gentle leader, haltie, or east walk harness (front clip) might be a solution if it’s just pulling and not lunging, but a 60 lb dog will drag down most people if lunging toward another person/dog.

Not sure your relationship or if you have the skill set to train leash skills, but could you volunteer to walk it for a few weeks to give it a foundation and see how bad it is?

Op The problem is the dog came out of the dog needing a home immediately and they fell in love. The dog was smaller but, they overfed it so now it is about 70 pounds. One person CAN walk the dog without the prong but, the other who also wants to walk gets pulled down. I suggested that they get a dog walker for one the walker isn't available. But they don't want my solutions

So what is the purpose of this thread? To anonymously shame them? If they don’t want solutions, what are you asking for? Validation?

It's seriously obnoxious, misguided, and should be deleted.

Op here: I did not identify my friends and this is a very common problem. I started this to share the article and discuss how the dog training is changing but, many people who think they are good owners are basing their information on past guidance which is woefully outdated. If this is not of interest to you, fine. But, just because you don't like it that doesn't give you the right to try to shut it down.

To clarify: We talked about training and they wanted my input. But, when I figured out they weren't going to change I told them to stop telling me. Hope that clears up any miscommunication.

OP, I responded in this thread as a proponent of balanced training, which you are correctly noting is old-fashioned and considered outdated and abusive. Never mind the risk of injury to people from positive only training, which you described in your post (getting dragged around which is dangerous and can cause direct or indirect injury) as well as to the potential for harm to the dog, other people and other dogs.

On the parenting forum, the post about the 6 year old brother who misbehaves at bedtime seems parallel - the suggestions are sticker chart or better planning by mom. Positive only training in action. Telling him No! is old-fashioned and outdated and abusive.

Op I never said I was "positive only" Only that I do not use pain to teach my dog. If you understood your dog than you wouldn't either. Let me give you an example. My dog wants to jump and say hi. We turn away and don't pet him until all four paws are on the ground. He learns that to get pets he has to be calm and have his feet on the ground. I don't have to knee him or yell NO! Also, the difference between humans ( even kids) is that they speak your language so you can explain the sticker chart and your rules. Dogs don't and they communicate an entirely different way! Guess what they are different!

https://pethelpful.com/dogs/The-Four-Quadrants-of-Dog-Training

It is dangerous for my friend1 The answer is clear. You can't do everything! Stop walking the dog. After all if a man tried to breastfeed because he wanted to that would be silly right? Or if I had a small dog and wanted him to be a sled dog...ain't going to happen!

But yes, continue on with your training and meanwhile my dog and I have an amazing relationship build on love and trust! He does things for me because he wants to!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Prong collars are perfectly fine for some dogs. The real issue is that many(most?)
owners don't know how to properly use them.

Op Wrong Wrong wrong!

It's 100% accurate and true. You repeating "wrong" over and over doesn't change that at all.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, check out fenzi dog sports academy. I suspect you would like their philosophy (100% positive reinforcement only). I like that methodology too.

Ideally these people would have adopted or purchased a dog that fit their physical and mental capabilities. But since they didn’t, it would probably be a good idea if they sent their dog to a board and train situation so the dog came back knowing how to walk appropriately.

Teaching a dog to walk properly without using aversives is a long journey. If the dog is reactive, it’s a lifetime of work, every time you go out the door. Sounds like if they aren’t willing to hire out training, the options are prong collar or no walks. Neither is ideal, but a prong is probably the less bad option. A gentle leader, haltie, or east walk harness (front clip) might be a solution if it’s just pulling and not lunging, but a 60 lb dog will drag down most people if lunging toward another person/dog.

Not sure your relationship or if you have the skill set to train leash skills, but could you volunteer to walk it for a few weeks to give it a foundation and see how bad it is?

Op The problem is the dog came out of the dog needing a home immediately and they fell in love. The dog was smaller but, they overfed it so now it is about 70 pounds. One person CAN walk the dog without the prong but, the other who also wants to walk gets pulled down. I suggested that they get a dog walker for one the walker isn't available. But they don't want my solutions

So what is the purpose of this thread? To anonymously shame them? If they don’t want solutions, what are you asking for? Validation?

It's seriously obnoxious, misguided, and should be deleted.

Op here: I did not identify my friends and this is a very common problem. I started this to share the article and discuss how the dog training is changing but, many people who think they are good owners are basing their information on past guidance which is woefully outdated. If this is not of interest to you, fine. But, just because you don't like it that doesn't give you the right to try to shut it down.

To clarify: We talked about training and they wanted my input. But, when I figured out they weren't going to change I told them to stop telling me. Hope that clears up any miscommunication.

OP, I responded in this thread as a proponent of balanced training, which you are correctly noting is old-fashioned and considered outdated and abusive. Never mind the risk of injury to people from positive only training, which you described in your post (getting dragged around which is dangerous and can cause direct or indirect injury) as well as to the potential for harm to the dog, other people and other dogs.

On the parenting forum, the post about the 6 year old brother who misbehaves at bedtime seems parallel - the suggestions are sticker chart or better planning by mom. Positive only training in action. Telling him No! is old-fashioned and outdated and abusive.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, check out fenzi dog sports academy. I suspect you would like their philosophy (100% positive reinforcement only). I like that methodology too.

Ideally these people would have adopted or purchased a dog that fit their physical and mental capabilities. But since they didn’t, it would probably be a good idea if they sent their dog to a board and train situation so the dog came back knowing how to walk appropriately.

Teaching a dog to walk properly without using aversives is a long journey. If the dog is reactive, it’s a lifetime of work, every time you go out the door. Sounds like if they aren’t willing to hire out training, the options are prong collar or no walks. Neither is ideal, but a prong is probably the less bad option. A gentle leader, haltie, or east walk harness (front clip) might be a solution if it’s just pulling and not lunging, but a 60 lb dog will drag down most people if lunging toward another person/dog.

Not sure your relationship or if you have the skill set to train leash skills, but could you volunteer to walk it for a few weeks to give it a foundation and see how bad it is?

Op The problem is the dog came out of the dog needing a home immediately and they fell in love. The dog was smaller but, they overfed it so now it is about 70 pounds. One person CAN walk the dog without the prong but, the other who also wants to walk gets pulled down. I suggested that they get a dog walker for one the walker isn't available. But they don't want my solutions

So what is the purpose of this thread? To anonymously shame them? If they don’t want solutions, what are you asking for? Validation?

It's seriously obnoxious, misguided, and should be deleted.

Op here: I did not identify my friends and this is a very common problem. I started this to share the article and discuss how the dog training is changing but, many people who think they are good owners are basing their information on past guidance which is woefully outdated. If this is not of interest to you, fine. But, just because you don't like it that doesn't give you the right to try to shut it down.

To clarify: We talked about training and they wanted my input. But, when I figured out they weren't going to change I told them to stop telling me. Hope that clears up any miscommunication.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, check out fenzi dog sports academy. I suspect you would like their philosophy (100% positive reinforcement only). I like that methodology too.

Ideally these people would have adopted or purchased a dog that fit their physical and mental capabilities. But since they didn’t, it would probably be a good idea if they sent their dog to a board and train situation so the dog came back knowing how to walk appropriately.

Teaching a dog to walk properly without using aversives is a long journey. If the dog is reactive, it’s a lifetime of work, every time you go out the door. Sounds like if they aren’t willing to hire out training, the options are prong collar or no walks. Neither is ideal, but a prong is probably the less bad option. A gentle leader, haltie, or east walk harness (front clip) might be a solution if it’s just pulling and not lunging, but a 60 lb dog will drag down most people if lunging toward another person/dog.

Not sure your relationship or if you have the skill set to train leash skills, but could you volunteer to walk it for a few weeks to give it a foundation and see how bad it is?

Op The problem is the dog came out of the dog needing a home immediately and they fell in love. The dog was smaller but, they overfed it so now it is about 70 pounds. One person CAN walk the dog without the prong but, the other who also wants to walk gets pulled down. I suggested that they get a dog walker for one the walker isn't available. But they don't want my solutions

So what is the purpose of this thread? To anonymously shame them? If they don’t want solutions, what are you asking for? Validation?

Op here. The purpose was to share an article about dog training and I was giving an example of good people who are struggling? There is no shaming!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, check out fenzi dog sports academy. I suspect you would like their philosophy (100% positive reinforcement only). I like that methodology too.

Ideally these people would have adopted or purchased a dog that fit their physical and mental capabilities. But since they didn’t, it would probably be a good idea if they sent their dog to a board and train situation so the dog came back knowing how to walk appropriately.

Teaching a dog to walk properly without using aversives is a long journey. If the dog is reactive, it’s a lifetime of work, every time you go out the door. Sounds like if they aren’t willing to hire out training, the options are prong collar or no walks. Neither is ideal, but a prong is probably the less bad option. A gentle leader, haltie, or east walk harness (front clip) might be a solution if it’s just pulling and not lunging, but a 60 lb dog will drag down most people if lunging toward another person/dog.

Not sure your relationship or if you have the skill set to train leash skills, but could you volunteer to walk it for a few weeks to give it a foundation and see how bad it is?

Op The problem is the dog came out of the dog needing a home immediately and they fell in love. The dog was smaller but, they overfed it so now it is about 70 pounds. One person CAN walk the dog without the prong but, the other who also wants to walk gets pulled down. I suggested that they get a dog walker for one the walker isn't available. But they don't want my solutions

So what is the purpose of this thread? To anonymously shame them? If they don’t want solutions, what are you asking for? Validation?

It's seriously obnoxious, misguided, and should be deleted.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, check out fenzi dog sports academy. I suspect you would like their philosophy (100% positive reinforcement only). I like that methodology too.

Ideally these people would have adopted or purchased a dog that fit their physical and mental capabilities. But since they didn’t, it would probably be a good idea if they sent their dog to a board and train situation so the dog came back knowing how to walk appropriately.

Teaching a dog to walk properly without using aversives is a long journey. If the dog is reactive, it’s a lifetime of work, every time you go out the door. Sounds like if they aren’t willing to hire out training, the options are prong collar or no walks. Neither is ideal, but a prong is probably the less bad option. A gentle leader, haltie, or east walk harness (front clip) might be a solution if it’s just pulling and not lunging, but a 60 lb dog will drag down most people if lunging toward another person/dog.

Not sure your relationship or if you have the skill set to train leash skills, but could you volunteer to walk it for a few weeks to give it a foundation and see how bad it is?

Op The problem is the dog came out of the dog needing a home immediately and they fell in love. The dog was smaller but, they overfed it so now it is about 70 pounds. One person CAN walk the dog without the prong but, the other who also wants to walk gets pulled down. I suggested that they get a dog walker for one the walker isn't available. But they don't want my solutions

So what is the purpose of this thread? To anonymously shame them? If they don’t want solutions, what are you asking for? Validation?

Anonymous wrote:OP, check out fenzi dog sports academy. I suspect you would like their philosophy (100% positive reinforcement only). I like that methodology too.

Ideally these people would have adopted or purchased a dog that fit their physical and mental capabilities. But since they didn’t, it would probably be a good idea if they sent their dog to a board and train situation so the dog came back knowing how to walk appropriately.

Teaching a dog to walk properly without using aversives is a long journey. If the dog is reactive, it’s a lifetime of work, every time you go out the door. Sounds like if they aren’t willing to hire out training, the options are prong collar or no walks. Neither is ideal, but a prong is probably the less bad option. A gentle leader, haltie, or east walk harness (front clip) might be a solution if it’s just pulling and not lunging, but a 60 lb dog will drag down most people if lunging toward another person/dog.

Not sure your relationship or if you have the skill set to train leash skills, but could you volunteer to walk it for a few weeks to give it a foundation and see how bad it is?

Op The problem is the dog came out of the dog needing a home immediately and they fell in love. The dog was smaller but, they overfed it so now it is about 70 pounds. One person CAN walk the dog without the prong but, the other who also wants to walk gets pulled down. I suggested that they get a dog walker for one the walker isn't available. But they don't want my solutions