Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, thanks to those of you who seem to get it.

It isn't passive aggressive all the time, though sometimes it is.

It is repressed, and muted, and there is never a genuine expression of emotion. Just careful control to not have a feeling, or a want, and never to express a feeling, or a want.
...

This and what the PP wrote about saving face in Japanese culture describes my family. But the other side of the saving face system is a tally system.

Because if someone never expresses a want, then they never need to feel indebted when you fulfill that want for them. Like your brother doesn't want to "owe" you for making them breakfast. Your mother doesn't want to "owe" you for letting her hold the baby. Or "owe" you for prepping grapes. It's like an informal point system that everyone is keeping their own personal tally. And everyone is trying to gain advantage in the tally. That's what really annoys me.

This….is so warped. Why would anyone owe you because you let them hold your baby? If someone makes you dinner, you should be nice to them in return (even if you didn’t want it, tbh) but that’s not owing something, other than owing courtesy. Sometimes I’ll be reading DCUM, and I’ll be thinking, why can’t any of these people get along with their family? Then I’ll read a post like this, and it all makes sense. I mean, your post doesn’t make sense, but it makes sense to me that people who think like this will have trouble with basic human interactions.

That it's a horrible way to live is what I'm saying too. It's so petty and so frustrating. Be thankful you don't deal with people like that.

Anonymous wrote:OP, I married into a family of Ohio Christians who are Midwestern nice. It seemed so wonderful at first compared to my family of outward dysfunction. I’ve learned over time that what I thought was impeccable manners is actually repression. The women in particular are infantilized simpletons. I don’t have any advice, just that I understand.

Well aren't you haughty.
You come across as incredibly sanctimonious & judgmental -- it's a very unattractive look.
I how your husband reads this and is clued in to your true feelings about all of the women in his family/who raised him.
You might want to come on off of that high horse, as you don't seem much better than them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, thanks to those of you who seem to get it.

It isn't passive aggressive all the time, though sometimes it is.

It is repressed, and muted, and there is never a genuine expression of emotion. Just careful control to not have a feeling, or a want, and never to express a feeling, or a want.
...

This and what the PP wrote about saving face in Japanese culture describes my family. But the other side of the saving face system is a tally system.

Because if someone never expresses a want, then they never need to feel indebted when you fulfill that want for them. Like your brother doesn't want to "owe" you for making them breakfast. Your mother doesn't want to "owe" you for letting her hold the baby. Or "owe" you for prepping grapes. It's like an informal point system that everyone is keeping their own personal tally. And everyone is trying to gain advantage in the tally. That's what really annoys me.

This….is so warped. Why would anyone owe you because you let them hold your baby? If someone makes you dinner, you should be nice to them in return (even if you didn’t want it, tbh) but that’s not owing something, other than owing courtesy. Sometimes I’ll be reading DCUM, and I’ll be thinking, why can’t any of these people get along with their family? Then I’ll read a post like this, and it all makes sense. I mean, your post doesn’t make sense, but it makes sense to me that people who think like this will have trouble with basic human interactions.

Anonymous wrote:OP, thanks to those of you who seem to get it.

It isn't passive aggressive all the time, though sometimes it is.

It is repressed, and muted, and there is never a genuine expression of emotion. Just careful control to not have a feeling, or a want, and never to express a feeling, or a want.

Like politeness that left me constantly guessing if I was ever doing the right thing as a child, and guised politeness when I started dating an abusive alcoholic -- my family could never say anything "bad" about anyone or anything no matter how awful something might be.

So everything is pretend, and wanting what's best, and when my ex was arrested for assaulting me and my kids, it was silence.

And sometimes it's just tiring to be left trying to guess even though as an adult I have my own circle, the little ways their patterns play out exhaust me sometimes, and annoy me that this really is just how it is with them. Mostly though it's my brother repeating all of the patterns that I find hardest.

It just makes things not feel real. Like it's all just for show. Like literally my mother said a few months ago that she had never ever in her life started an argument. (Because that is not "nice")

So it seems to be deeply ingrained, cultural, and generational, and they are magically supposed to be different because you think they should be? OK. That’s not at all a pointless and stupid way to think.

You have an abusive ex and you’re sitting around complaining and focusing on the fact that your brother doesn’t want you going to the trouble of making a big breakfast? OK.

Anonymous wrote:OP, thanks to those of you who seem to get it.

It isn't passive aggressive all the time, though sometimes it is.

It is repressed, and muted, and there is never a genuine expression of emotion. Just careful control to not have a feeling, or a want, and never to express a feeling, or a want.
...

This and what the PP wrote about saving face in Japanese culture describes my family. But the other side of the saving face system is a tally system.

Because if someone never expresses a want, then they never need to feel indebted when you fulfill that want for them. Like your brother doesn't want to "owe" you for making them breakfast. Your mother doesn't want to "owe" you for letting her hold the baby. Or "owe" you for prepping grapes. It's like an informal point system that everyone is keeping their own personal tally. And everyone is trying to gain advantage in the tally. That's what really annoys me.

Anonymous wrote:Op, you are posting a reasonable question. Your family operates one way. Many other families operate a different way. I understand your frustration. Probably the best you can do is: operated within the family -you have created- to communicate the way you prefer.

I was raised: We say what we mean. We mean what we say. There is never hard feelings that someone didn't guess correctly or anticipate what was really meant. That wouldn't fly.

For those who think that might be crass, it isn't.

DP - It isn't crass, it's refreshing to those who've been raised midwestern nice. That's one thing that attracted me to DH. I must admit at first I had a hard time with it.

Like a PP I dated an immature man that my parents didn't like. Yet they never said anything. I found out years later.

Or if someone did something another family member didn't like, nothing was said. They are talked about behind their back. Then it all went under the carpet until one day, somebody would blow up, blurt and briefly shout, followed by silence, then "please pass the potatoes". And it would all be over, 'til next time.

Having a discussion about what went wrong and how to make things better never happened. It's something I learned later in life.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I get it that people that don't have families like this likely won't understand. I'm asking people who do. People who do will get what it's like.

I get it. It’s something you have to experience for years to understand.

Op, you are posting a reasonable question. Your family operates one way. Many other families operate a different way. I understand your frustration. Probably the best you can do is: operated within the family -you have created- to communicate the way you prefer.

I was raised: We say what we mean. We mean what we say. There is never hard feelings that someone didn't guess correctly or anticipate what was really meant. That wouldn't fly.

For those who think that might be crass, it isn't.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I married into a family of Ohio Christians who are Midwestern nice. It seemed so wonderful at first compared to my family of outward dysfunction. I’ve learned over time that what I thought was impeccable manners is actually repression. The women in particular are infantilized simpletons. I don’t have any advice, just that I understand.

Wow. I feel for your in laws. Hopefully your spouse divorces you and find someone kinder.

Ha ha ha ha ha! As if. He never will initiate a divorce - not ever, no matter what. I’ve gotten fed up over the years and tried but he has never entertained it even in our lowest points as a couple. Part of the Midwestern nice upbringing means that his top ambition in life was to be a husband. Raising my kids to be much different- to value actual authenticity over outward appearances and to make sure both DDs and DSs know that it is ok for women to aspire to more than SAHM or elementary school teachers (no hate to those roles - but girls shouldn’t be railroaded into that if they want to take a different path).

Inlaws are asian so you can only tell something isn't going their way/that there is an issue when they stand back and have conversations quietly amongst themselves and then make weird seemingly minor suggestions or irrelevant statements. eg "here are some appetizers" and gesturing to obvious appetizers multiple times because they feel people aren't eating them enough or "we would like to get food" repeatedly when we are on our way to a restaurant- when we KNOW they want to go eat- so why do they keep stating this- instead of stating 'I know we said we wanted xx type of food but now we actually want xx type of food and are too scared to tell you- but will not eat anything once we get there because we didn't tell you we no longer want to eat that". They are very indirect, which is seen as weird and confusing in my family.

For a while I tried to second-guess whatever their deal was but I have long since given up and MIL/FIL now know to be direct and I am never offended. I'm only offended when they waste time by not getting what they need by beating around the bush. Or I will sense something and let DH know it's above my paygrade but if he cares to figure it out, he can address it.

They are also the kind of people who will hold a door open and stand in the way at length, gesturing for everyone to enter- when there is little room for everyone to get by, so what they are doing is more rude than the rudeness they are trying to avoid by gesturing/welcoming everyone in. They will enter a room and stop dead so everyone has to walk around them because they are too polite to enter.

They are wonderful humans and I'd rather have that than absolute jerks but it's oddly annoying.

OP, thanks to those of you who seem to get it.

It isn't passive aggressive all the time, though sometimes it is.

It is repressed, and muted, and there is never a genuine expression of emotion. Just careful control to not have a feeling, or a want, and never to express a feeling, or a want.

Like politeness that left me constantly guessing if I was ever doing the right thing as a child, and guised politeness when I started dating an abusive alcoholic -- my family could never say anything "bad" about anyone or anything no matter how awful something might be.

So everything is pretend, and wanting what's best, and when my ex was arrested for assaulting me and my kids, it was silence.

And sometimes it's just tiring to be left trying to guess even though as an adult I have my own circle, the little ways their patterns play out exhaust me sometimes, and annoy me that this really is just how it is with them. Mostly though it's my brother repeating all of the patterns that I find hardest.

It just makes things not feel real. Like it's all just for show. Like literally my mother said a few months ago that she had never ever in her life started an argument. (Because that is not "nice")

People can't win on DCUM. Do one thing, it's selfish. do another, it's passive.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I married into a family of Ohio Christians who are Midwestern nice. It seemed so wonderful at first compared to my family of outward dysfunction. I’ve learned over time that what I thought was impeccable manners is actually repression. The women in particular are infantilized simpletons. I don’t have any advice, just that I understand.

Wow. I feel for your in laws. Hopefully your spouse divorces you and find someone kinder.

Triggered much?

A bit. I'm generally triggered by completely nasty people though so don't take it personally.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I married into a family of Ohio Christians who are Midwestern nice. It seemed so wonderful at first compared to my family of outward dysfunction. I’ve learned over time that what I thought was impeccable manners is actually repression. The women in particular are infantilized simpletons. I don’t have any advice, just that I understand.

+1

Same - the midwestern nice is taking expression of emotion as complaining. No thanks.

Yes! Yes! I worked with a woman like this! It was her and her team's JOB to review something and then during the meeting, discuss her team's findings. They said everything was good. Smiles all around. Then after the others left, she said, "Well, I didn't want to hurt anyone's feelings, but this is wrong, that's wrong, " etc
Eyeroll

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I married into a family of Ohio Christians who are Midwestern nice. It seemed so wonderful at first compared to my family of outward dysfunction. I’ve learned over time that what I thought was impeccable manners is actually repression. The women in particular are infantilized simpletons. I don’t have any advice, just that I understand.

Wow. I feel for your in laws. Hopefully your spouse divorces you and find someone kinder.

Triggered much?