Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP, thank you for your reply because you exposed something that I should have been more clear about. I’m the poster you replied to.

My family is mixed. I’m white, DH is Asian and 1.5 generation (he’s immigrated twice; it’s complicated). Our background is similar to yours minus the unicorn tech company. The school I am talking about is 75% white and when I say that parents don’t know their values and are operating out of fear: that’s only the white parents. I thought and thought about it and the ones who complain about exmissions, about their kids’ scores being too low, etc: ALL white parents. The people buying their way out of pressure and the rat race are of every background and race but no one has less than 2nd generation kids.

There is SO much going on here and it’s not going to be unpacked in a DCUM thread. But it’s fascinating.

Chinatown PP here. I would be super curious to hear your thoughts on this and at least start to try to unpack it. Maybe DCUM isn't the forum for it, but I'd love to hear more of your opinions and observations at an elite private.

Independent school OP. I was thinking about this thread last night and going back to the original question and the idea of privilege and attitude about achievement/outcome and how those two things interact. Privilege seems to inform how the people who have it behave, but everyone is driven by how secure they feel in their place in society, so I think the quest for security is more of a common denominator in our specific community.

Our school families can be divided into four types. Imagine a graph with security on one axis and desire for achievement on the other- our families would be arrayed in 4 quadrants on this graph:

1) lower security, content attitude about outcome: these families are rare- they often grew up near our school when the city was more affordable and low-key and were able to fairly easily access competitive high schools and elite colleges when admissions were less difficult. They might have inherited a house and have a stable professional career, but they’re not tech millionaires. They recognize their relative privilege and know the odds of their children following in their footsteps is unlikely because of increased competition and demand for housing, elite schools, etc. but that they’ll have the security and status they’ve inherited, so they focus on other things.

2) higher security, striving: these parents are 1st generation kids of professional-class immigrants or they’re the 1st generation in their family to have the resources to have their child in private school. Their cultural values or anxiety about replicating their generation’s success mean that they want their child to be high-achieving and in a high-achieving environment and they want visible success.

3) higher security, content attitude about outcome: these parents are so rich that they don’t need to worry about their kids’ external achievements and can guide them towards following their passions, or they went through the tiger parent/high achievement gauntlet and don’t want their kids to experience the same thing for diminishing returns in a more competitive world.

4) lower security, striving: This group is divided but they all want high achievement from their kids and measurable results at their school. They might come from middle class backgrounds and be rich now, but feel anxiety about their social status and where they fit into their neighborhood or a private school community. They always want more. Or they might be recent immigrants who don’t have extensive networks or material wealth and rightly see their children’s achievements as a valuable future resource that will provide security.

The families in groups 1 and 3 have the highest social status at our school and they’re the ones everyone wants to be like, probably because they are confident and relaxed. But in reality, the anxieties of groups 2 and 4 are louder and what teachers and the administration have to respond to.

Anonymous wrote:PP, thank you for your reply because you exposed something that I should have been more clear about. I’m the poster you replied to.

My family is mixed. I’m white, DH is Asian and 1.5 generation (he’s immigrated twice; it’s complicated). Our background is similar to yours minus the unicorn tech company. The school I am talking about is 75% white and when I say that parents don’t know their values and are operating out of fear: that’s only the white parents. I thought and thought about it and the ones who complain about exmissions, about their kids’ scores being too low, etc: ALL white parents. The people buying their way out of pressure and the rat race are of every background and race but no one has less than 2nd generation kids.

There is SO much going on here and it’s not going to be unpacked in a DCUM thread. But it’s fascinating.

Chinatown PP here. I would be super curious to hear your thoughts on this and at least start to try to unpack it. Maybe DCUM isn't the forum for it, but I'd love to hear more of your opinions and observations at an elite private.

PP, thank you for your reply because you exposed something that I should have been more clear about. I’m the poster you replied to.

My family is mixed. I’m white, DH is Asian and 1.5 generation (he’s immigrated twice; it’s complicated). Our background is similar to yours minus the unicorn tech company. The school I am talking about is 75% white and when I say that parents don’t know their values and are operating out of fear: that’s only the white parents. I thought and thought about it and the ones who complain about exmissions, about their kids’ scores being too low, etc: ALL white parents. The people buying their way out of pressure and the rat race are of every background and race but no one has less than 2nd generation kids.

There is SO much going on here and it’s not going to be unpacked in a DCUM thread. But it’s fascinating.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here --

My response cut off for some reason:

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here -- the people who don't "buy into the rat race," who proclaim that they "truly don't care where their kids go to college," and are intent on bringing anti-stress initiatives to high schools in UMC areas are mostly ultra-wealthy 1%ers whose kids are set up for success regardless of where they go to school (or even if they have a college degree). They'll probably end up inheriting millions or working for the family business.

I was raised by poor immigrant parents in SF's Chinatown. My parents absolutely emphasized academic success and majoring in an employable field, and I've risen far from my free-and-reduced lunch background to work at a unicorn tech company. DH comes from a similar background, and between the two of us, we have a NW of ~$3 million in our late 30s.

I disagree with your point that parental pushing and an emphasis on academic excellence stems from "fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important." As second-gen Asian Americans, DH and I plan on continuing the family legacy of upward SES mobility, academic excellence, a strong work ethic, and pushing our kids in both school work and extracurricular activities. We want our kids to master and thrive in activities outside of their comfort zone -- grit has been proven to be the most important factor in success!

Many of the wealthy white parents in the Bay Area (who often populate nonsensical "stress reduction" efforts such as Challenge Success) proclaim similar things that you are; that tiger parents are "scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation..."

But this definitely isn't the case in this day and age. The external markers of adulthood -- buying a house in a good pyramid, saving for your kids' college while also paying for daycare, medical expenses, and retirement, have all gotten incredibly expensive. Income inequality is at an all-time high.

To survive in this world, kids need to be at the top of their game economically. And that means that they have to CRUSH IT in their schoolwork and ECs in high school, get accepted into a reputable college (not necessarily an elite one, but at the very least a solid school like VA Tech), and major in CS or Finance or do pre-med.

After college graduation, young adults these days MUST go into tech or finance or into med school (with hopes of matching into a lucrative speciality, not something like pediatrics) if they want to be UMC (not rich, just comfortable) in this day and age.

PP, I heavily disagree with what you're saying. IME, tiger parents know EXACTLY what they value and hold important. We're very much in touch with what it takes to survive in this world. And it's mostly a heap of unpleasant striving and grinding. The earlier kids get used to that, the more competitive they'll be as an adult.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

I think you ended up inadvertently nailing the point here --

Anonymous wrote:I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

It’s definitely the times. I live elsewhere and am involved in independent school leadership. We hear parents during admissions season say they want a supportive community, a low-pressure school focused on individuals, not achievement, and a place where their child is valued for who they are. And these parents genuinely want this- it’s not fake. But once their child is in school the script flips and they want to know why we aren’t testing, why exmissions weren’t “better”, comparisons to other area schools, and explanations for why their 2nd grader is doing pre-calc.

It is ALL fear and insecurity and it comes from parents who don’t actually know their own values and what they hold important. They are scared to be in touch with or even discuss what they’re trying to get out of in life, and they fall back on the safety of external validation and “achievement” once their children are old enough to be compared to others or have to compete for resources.

It’s probably the biggest problem facing schools, parents, and kids. And I have no idea how it can get fixed because so few people dare to walk away from the game- and those that do are often so privileged that they are actually the ones running the game and making the rules.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finally, a sliver of good news for those of us who can't afford to live in these neighborhoods.

Although even in my middle class Loudoun suburb, the pressure is still on to have the latest iphone/Stanley/lululemon/Nike shoe/whatever. It is intense and I hate what its done to my kids.

I think that kind of thing is only important if your kid wants to be in the popular crowd.

My 15 DD yr old DD doesn't have the latest whatever (what is a Stanley?), and she's still a pretty happy kid, very involved with her interests.

The popular kids here are into all that name brand stuff. I had a talk with DD very early on about the rabbit hole of going down the name brand chasing.

Most kids want to fit in. Its actually more rare to find a kid that doesn't. Clearly that is just your daughter's personality. Telling kids "not to care" about brand names doesn't usually work.

That’s because most people are followers and terrified of standing out. If everyone is wearing Lululemon then that’s what they will wear. They won’t try any of the newer brands for fear of not fitting in.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We actively fight against the teenage rat-race and the stress and anxiety our kids face, but they listen to us about that the same way they listen about eating all 4 food groups, getting to sleep on time, and clothing choices. Which is to say, not as much as we would prefer. But it's an almost daily conversation and we've made deliberate choices about where to live and what activities to encourage/allow in order to put their mental health first.

+1
The environment around us sends a different message than we do as parents. One of our family core values is health and the rat race is not healthy. I tell them there is space for everyone to be successful. If they zig, you zag. We are guiding our naturally anxious straight A Big 3 kid toward a nice Midwest university with high acceptance rates. It served me well, so I'm a great example of how one doesn't need a top university to be successful. She can choose a competitive grad school if she wants. We're not doing the Ivy or bust game, not even in that race.

Are you living your vlaues as a non-UMC MC family, or are you setting your child up to not have the same level of wealth that she was accustomed to as a child?

Access to grad school and a high paying career is a lot harder now than it was for your generation.

First of all were UC (for generations) and we are living our values.

Second, one child is on track to be a doctor and the other a lawyer. There are many great medical schools and it's not harder to get in now than in my generation. KU med is not Harvard, but lots of successful doctors have gone and continue to go there. She doesn't need Harvard to be a successful doctor. For my daughter who wants to be a lawyer, I genuinely hope she wants to do corporate law rather than white shoe big law. I just don't want her to be that kind of person. I work with many corporate lawyers who have great work-life balance and good UMC salaries. The younger one may still change her mind. I genuinely don't believe my kids are at risk of declining in SES. They will likely marry an equal, and two solid UMC salaries are more than plenty. They will be fine!

I feel a bit sad that your outlook for your own children is rooted in fear.

Are your two in college?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finally, a sliver of good news for those of us who can't afford to live in these neighborhoods.

Although even in my middle class Loudoun suburb, the pressure is still on to have the latest iphone/Stanley/lululemon/Nike shoe/whatever. It is intense and I hate what its done to my kids.

I think that kind of thing is only important if your kid wants to be in the popular crowd.

My 15 DD yr old DD doesn't have the latest whatever (what is a Stanley?), and she's still a pretty happy kid, very involved with her interests.

The popular kids here are into all that name brand stuff. I had a talk with DD very early on about the rabbit hole of going down the name brand chasing.

My kid at McLean doesn’t care about brand names at all. She does like to go thrift store shopping with friends.

ok, but is she in the popular crowd who likes to shop at lululemon?

My kid also likes to shop at consignment stores, but she's not in the popular crowd and doesn't want to be. She said they are kind of mean.

DP here and my kid is definitely not in the popular crowd (and she says they are mean too) but she still wants to dress like the majority of the girls dress, which is this type of look. And even most of the not popular kids still know what lululemon is. Unless you are part of the group TRYING to be different (which is totally fine, but not what my DD wants) this is how a lot of kids are dressing.

Anonymous wrote:It’s not the school that does this. It’s wealthy snowplow parents who obsess on elite colleges.

That and there are too many parents who think their children are gifted and smarter than they actually are. This creates stress on the child, twice as much time studying as it should be because the classes don’t come naturally. They are forced to get tutors just to keep up a normal pace. That’s pressure and it doesn’t have to be.

I was friends with someone who did part-time work at one of the competitive (but not big three) schools in MoCo. She ended up leaving because she said the kids were so stressed out and fearful of anything short of perfection. She was a high achiever herself and from a highly competitive public school in the Northeast. She thought it was not the DMV but more the times.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finally, a sliver of good news for those of us who can't afford to live in these neighborhoods.

Although even in my middle class Loudoun suburb, the pressure is still on to have the latest iphone/Stanley/lululemon/Nike shoe/whatever. It is intense and I hate what its done to my kids.

I think that kind of thing is only important if your kid wants to be in the popular crowd.

My 15 DD yr old DD doesn't have the latest whatever (what is a Stanley?), and she's still a pretty happy kid, very involved with her interests.

The popular kids here are into all that name brand stuff. I had a talk with DD very early on about the rabbit hole of going down the name brand chasing.

My kid at McLean doesn’t care about brand names at all. She does like to go thrift store shopping with friends.

ok, but is she in the popular crowd who likes to shop at lululemon?

My kid also likes to shop at consignment stores, but she's not in the popular crowd and doesn't want to be. She said they are kind of mean.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are in McLean high pyramid, ....

Pressure and race to god knows where is astounding, Ivy league is like a lottery these days, a kid from a good enough college with good work ethic will end up doing fine in life.

Signed - An Asian parent.

You mean an Asian Parent who is adapting to the WASP ways....welcome.

I am happy to adapt the WASP ways, they are awesome!

I don't know about awesome, but parenting the "tiger parent" way is also not great for the kid, and not really necessary in the US.

-signed another Asian parent

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Finally, a sliver of good news for those of us who can't afford to live in these neighborhoods.

Although even in my middle class Loudoun suburb, the pressure is still on to have the latest iphone/Stanley/lululemon/Nike shoe/whatever. It is intense and I hate what its done to my kids.

I think that kind of thing is only important if your kid wants to be in the popular crowd.

My 15 DD yr old DD doesn't have the latest whatever (what is a Stanley?), and she's still a pretty happy kid, very involved with her interests.

The popular kids here are into all that name brand stuff. I had a talk with DD very early on about the rabbit hole of going down the name brand chasing.

Most kids want to fit in. Its actually more rare to find a kid that doesn't. Clearly that is just your daughter's personality. Telling kids "not to care" about brand names doesn't usually work.

pp here.. the trick is to be in a big diverse school where not everyone is the same. When the school is made up of a homogeneous group of kids, that's when it's harder to "not care".

DP, and while there is something to what you are saying (I also prefer a big diverse school without a clear "in crowd"), sometimes kids just want to fit in with a certain group of kids no matter what. You can't always control it. If your DD marches to her own beat, that's great, but that doesn't mean that you caused that with your parenting. Some kids are naturally more conformist. You see it in families -- one kid who is happy doing their own thing and doesn't care what peers do, and another who is the opposite and very focused on being in line with peers. It's a personality issue and your choice of school won't necessarily have any impact.

of course... sometimes you can talk till you're blue in the face, but if the kid wants to be in the in-crowd, not much else you can do.

My point was that to mitigate this type of situation talk to your kids early about designer, name brand things, and also don't live in a homogeneous area.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We are in McLean high pyramid, ....

Pressure and race to god knows where is astounding, Ivy league is like a lottery these days, a kid from a good enough college with good work ethic will end up doing fine in life.

Signed - An Asian parent.

You mean an Asian Parent who is adapting to the WASP ways....welcome.

I am happy to adapt the WASP ways, they are awesome!