Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My dd got into HYP in 2020 with no hooks (yes, I know, pre-TO). We are in New England and admissions pretty much as tough here as anywhere. Directly and indirectly I have known a number of kids over the years who got in to the most competitive schools without being URM/first gen or athletes, I don't know about their legacy status. But what these kids all had in common was they really dug in to their own education and actively sought out opportunities to grow and contribute, they were all kids excited about learning and whatever their activities were it showed in the application I imagine. That's not a guarantee for a spot at a reachy-reach school, plenty of equally awesome kids with nearly identical apps probably didn't get in. But it's certainly possible.

Totally irrelevant in the TO world.

yeah it's not though. this school's acceptance in rate in last 4 years has gone from 5.91 to 4.46%, a very small change certainly reflective of increased number of applications (TO). It's still nearly impossible to get in, as it always has been. But that doesn't mean that it was previously about "the stats" and now suddenly it's about other things. My kid's stats, for example, were definitely not perfect. They were great, but that's not what got her in. And the other kids I can think of over the years have also not been the perfect stats kids, often not the valedictorians, who have gotten in to the schools with the toughest admissions numbers. you need to understand how holistic admissions works, it has its critics and I get the arguments. but it has always and will continue to give schools the ability to build a class based on a lot of intangibles. so you can think of the stats as the "first round", but a perfect stats kid who doesn't get in to a top school didn't miss out because they didn't have a hook, they just may not have had whatever combination of all the other stuff that spoke to the adcom committee that day.

+1000000000

The kids I know attending elite universities are all bright, motivated, a step above the average really smart kid. I call it the "it" factor. They are the kids who the universities think will be game changers in the future. Each uni defines it slightly differently, based on what they want/need to craft the ideal freshman class.
We get that many do not like/do not understand these intangibles, but they are likely here to stay. And really I think it's in the schools best interest to keep them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The top 25 or so schools mostly are uninterested in filling their classes with straight, white UMC students. Instead, they fill their classes with URMs, first generation students, immigrants and children of immigrants, openly queer, some international students, and athletes necessary to field their teams. Then they fill any remaining spots with the UMC straight white kids. Which means there aren’t a whole lot of spots left, and likelihood of getting in is pretty low. But still possible.

Or, put another way, they are interested in building diverse university communities that look like the country we live in. And even with that approach, UMC straight white people are still overrepresented!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My dd got into HYP in 2020 with no hooks (yes, I know, pre-TO). We are in New England and admissions pretty much as tough here as anywhere. Directly and indirectly I have known a number of kids over the years who got in to the most competitive schools without being URM/first gen or athletes, I don't know about their legacy status. But what these kids all had in common was they really dug in to their own education and actively sought out opportunities to grow and contribute, they were all kids excited about learning and whatever their activities were it showed in the application I imagine. That's not a guarantee for a spot at a reachy-reach school, plenty of equally awesome kids with nearly identical apps probably didn't get in. But it's certainly possible.

Totally irrelevant in the TO world.

yeah it's not though. this school's acceptance in rate in last 4 years has gone from 5.91 to 4.46%, a very small change certainly reflective of increased number of applications (TO). It's still nearly impossible to get in, as it always has been. But that doesn't mean that it was previously about "the stats" and now suddenly it's about other things. My kid's stats, for example, were definitely not perfect. They were great, but that's not what got her in. And the other kids I can think of over the years have also not been the perfect stats kids, often not the valedictorians, who have gotten in to the schools with the toughest admissions numbers. you need to understand how holistic admissions works, it has its critics and I get the arguments. but it has always and will continue to give schools the ability to build a class based on a lot of intangibles. so you can think of the stats as the "first round", but a perfect stats kid who doesn't get in to a top school didn't miss out because they didn't have a hook, they just may not have had whatever combination of all the other stuff that spoke to the adcom committee that day.

Anonymous wrote:My dd got into HYP in 2020 with no hooks (yes, I know, pre-TO). We are in New England and admissions pretty much as tough here as anywhere. Directly and indirectly I have known a number of kids over the years who got in to the most competitive schools without being URM/first gen or athletes, I don't know about their legacy status. But what these kids all had in common was they really dug in to their own education and actively sought out opportunities to grow and contribute, they were all kids excited about learning and whatever their activities were it showed in the application I imagine. That's not a guarantee for a spot at a reachy-reach school, plenty of equally awesome kids with nearly identical apps probably didn't get in. But it's certainly possible.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For colleges that reject 9 out of 10 applicants and admit 30%+ ALDCs, what do you think?

The question is more about if it's actually possible more than the pure difficulty. Yes, the difficulty is there and publicly known: last year Harvard admitted 4% of applicants, while Princeton and Duke admitted 6% of applicants. However, in the past I've seen unhooked kids get into all three. So it seems possible but not sure with the current landscape of admissions, with test optional and application volumes increasing.

Wow Harvard Princeton and Duke are brutal, they’re basically accepting 1 in every 20 kids.

It is far less than that if you are in an unhooked bucket from a highly-educated urban area: subtract athletes, big donors/VIPs/legacies, first gen/low-income, faculty/staff kids, and kids from geographically underrepresented areas. If you are not an academic superstar with national awards, it is a wasted application. Do not assume the chance is even 1% at an SCEA school (Duke ED might be as high as 5%).

I think you're half-right. Yes, it's difficult, but not 1-5% difficult. For example, a profile of an unhooked kid accepted to Duke this past ED cycle that was previously posted here, and I think this is even a stronger profile than a lot of admitted kids at top schools:

"Accepted

Demographics: White Male, Upper Class, Top Private Boarding School in Northeast (Feeds into Ivies, Stanford, Duke)

Areas of Interest: Math/Stats/Classical Studies

GPA: We have a different scale but it translates to ~3.95/4.0 UW, top 5% of class

SAT: 1590 (800 Math)

Coursework: Most rigorous (goes beyond scope of AP/IB), 5s on the AP exams I took

ECs:

1. School Based Non-Profit Co-Founder
2. Math Team Co-Head
3. President of Investment Club
4. Varsity Squash Captain
5. Varsity Soccer
6. Hedge Fund Paid Summer Intern
7. Student Council
8. Peer Tutor
9. Classics Club

Awards:

1. AIME Qualifier/Multiple AMC Awards/Local Math Competition Awards
2. Early Cum Laude Inductee/Various School Academic Honors
3. Multiple Coaches’ Awards for Athletics
4. Multiple School Awards for Non-Profit
5. NMSF/AP Scholar with Distinction

LORs: Math Teacher should be very strong, Classics Teacher should also be strong, Counselor should be above average.

Essays: Common App wasn’t very groundbreaking but I was told it’s well written. Why Duke was authentic and I tried to avoid cliche topics. For optional essays I chose Questioning Beliefs and Best Academic Experience. I thought Questioning Beliefs was okay, and Best Academic Experience was my strongest along with Why Duke.

Very glad the process is over, and even more excited to spend the next four years at Duke. I almost applied to Yale early but the more I learned about Duke, the more I realized it was my top choice. Good luck to everyone else!”

However I can’t say this student didn’t deserve to get in either, the academics seem top notch for him too. Bottom line, the applicant pool was likely very competitive this year for early decision, with lots of top students showing they really want to go to Duke. Unfortunately not much else you can do but wait OP."

A kid from an elite boarding school is going to have better odds than any kid coming from a DMV school, regardless of whether it is public or private

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For colleges that reject 9 out of 10 applicants and admit 30%+ ALDCs, what do you think?

The question is more about if it's actually possible more than the pure difficulty. Yes, the difficulty is there and publicly known: last year Harvard admitted 4% of applicants, while Princeton and Duke admitted 6% of applicants. However, in the past I've seen unhooked kids get into all three. So it seems possible but not sure with the current landscape of admissions, with test optional and application volumes increasing.

Wow Harvard Princeton and Duke are brutal, they’re basically accepting 1 in every 20 kids.

It is far less than that if you are in an unhooked bucket from a highly-educated urban area: subtract athletes, big donors/VIPs/legacies, first gen/low-income, faculty/staff kids, and kids from geographically underrepresented areas. If you are not an academic superstar with national awards, it is a wasted application. Do not assume the chance is even 1% at an SCEA school (Duke ED might be as high as 5%).

I think you're half-right. Yes, it's difficult, but not 1-5% difficult. For example, a profile of an unhooked kid accepted to Duke this past ED cycle that was previously posted here, and I think this is even a stronger profile than a lot of admitted kids at top schools:

"Accepted

Demographics: White Male, Upper Class, Top Private Boarding School in Northeast (Feeds into Ivies, Stanford, Duke)

Areas of Interest: Math/Stats/Classical Studies

GPA: We have a different scale but it translates to ~3.95/4.0 UW, top 5% of class

SAT: 1590 (800 Math)

Coursework: Most rigorous (goes beyond scope of AP/IB), 5s on the AP exams I took

ECs:

1. School Based Non-Profit Co-Founder
2. Math Team Co-Head
3. President of Investment Club
4. Varsity Squash Captain
5. Varsity Soccer
6. Hedge Fund Paid Summer Intern
7. Student Council
8. Peer Tutor
9. Classics Club

Awards:

1. AIME Qualifier/Multiple AMC Awards/Local Math Competition Awards
2. Early Cum Laude Inductee/Various School Academic Honors
3. Multiple Coaches’ Awards for Athletics
4. Multiple School Awards for Non-Profit
5. NMSF/AP Scholar with Distinction

LORs: Math Teacher should be very strong, Classics Teacher should also be strong, Counselor should be above average.

Essays: Common App wasn’t very groundbreaking but I was told it’s well written. Why Duke was authentic and I tried to avoid cliche topics. For optional essays I chose Questioning Beliefs and Best Academic Experience. I thought Questioning Beliefs was okay, and Best Academic Experience was my strongest along with Why Duke.

Very glad the process is over, and even more excited to spend the next four years at Duke. I almost applied to Yale early but the more I learned about Duke, the more I realized it was my top choice. Good luck to everyone else!”

However I can’t say this student didn’t deserve to get in either, the academics seem top notch for him too. Bottom line, the applicant pool was likely very competitive this year for early decision, with lots of top students showing they really want to go to Duke. Unfortunately not much else you can do but wait OP."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For colleges that reject 9 out of 10 applicants and admit 30%+ ALDCs, what do you think?

The question is more about if it's actually possible more than the pure difficulty. Yes, the difficulty is there and publicly known: last year Harvard admitted 4% of applicants, while Princeton and Duke admitted 6% of applicants. However, in the past I've seen unhooked kids get into all three. So it seems possible but not sure with the current landscape of admissions, with test optional and application volumes increasing.

Wow Harvard Princeton and Duke are brutal, they’re basically accepting 1 in every 20 kids.

It is far less than that if you are in an unhooked bucket from a highly-educated urban area: subtract athletes, big donors/VIPs/legacies, first gen/low-income, faculty/staff kids, and kids from geographically underrepresented areas. If you are not an academic superstar with national awards, it is a wasted application. Do not assume the chance is even 1% at an SCEA school (Duke ED might be as high as 5%).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My dd got into HYP in 2020 with no hooks (yes, I know, pre-TO). We are in New England and admissions pretty much as tough here as anywhere. Directly and indirectly I have known a number of kids over the years who got in to the most competitive schools without being URM/first gen or athletes, I don't know about their legacy status. But what these kids all had in common was they really dug in to their own education and actively sought out opportunities to grow and contribute, they were all kids excited about learning and whatever their activities were it showed in the application I imagine. That's not a guarantee for a spot at a reachy-reach school, plenty of equally awesome kids with nearly identical apps probably didn't get in. But it's certainly possible.

Totally irrelevant in the TO world.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For colleges that reject 9 out of 10 applicants and admit 30%+ ALDCs, what do you think?

The question is more about if it's actually possible more than the pure difficulty. Yes, the difficulty is there and publicly known: last year Harvard admitted 4% of applicants, while Princeton and Duke admitted 6% of applicants. However, in the past I've seen unhooked kids get into all three. So it seems possible but not sure with the current landscape of admissions, with test optional and application volumes increasing.

Wow Harvard Princeton and Duke are brutal, they’re basically accepting 1 in every 20 kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For colleges that reject 9 out of 10 applicants and admit 30%+ ALDCs, what do you think?

The question is more about if it's actually possible more than the pure difficulty. Yes, the difficulty is there and publicly known: last year Harvard admitted 4% of applicants, while Princeton and Duke admitted 6% of applicants. However, in the past I've seen unhooked kids get into all three. So it seems possible but not sure with the current landscape of admissions, with test optional and application volumes increasing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My dd got into HYP in 2020 with no hooks (yes, I know, pre-TO). We are in New England and admissions pretty much as tough here as anywhere. Directly and indirectly I have known a number of kids over the years who got in to the most competitive schools without being URM/first gen or athletes, I don't know about their legacy status. But what these kids all had in common was they really dug in to their own education and actively sought out opportunities to grow and contribute, they were all kids excited about learning and whatever their activities were it showed in the application I imagine. That's not a guarantee for a spot at a reachy-reach school, plenty of equally awesome kids with nearly identical apps probably didn't get in. But it's certainly possible.

Totally irrelevant in the TO world.

yeah it's not though. this school's acceptance in rate in last 4 years has gone from 5.91 to 4.46%, a very small change certainly reflective of increased number of applications (TO). It's still nearly impossible to get in, as it always has been. But that doesn't mean that it was previously about "the stats" and now suddenly it's about other things. My kid's stats, for example, were definitely not perfect. They were great, but that's not what got her in. And the other kids I can think of over the years have also not been the perfect stats kids, often not the valedictorians, who have gotten in to the schools with the toughest admissions numbers. you need to understand how holistic admissions works, it has its critics and I get the arguments. but it has always and will continue to give schools the ability to build a class based on a lot of intangibles. so you can think of the stats as the "first round", but a perfect stats kid who doesn't get in to a top school didn't miss out because they didn't have a hook, they just may not have had whatever combination of all the other stuff that spoke to the adcom committee that day.

Institutional priorities have also changed significantly.

in the space of 3 years? and you know this how, exactly?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My dd got into HYP in 2020 with no hooks (yes, I know, pre-TO). We are in New England and admissions pretty much as tough here as anywhere. Directly and indirectly I have known a number of kids over the years who got in to the most competitive schools without being URM/first gen or athletes, I don't know about their legacy status. But what these kids all had in common was they really dug in to their own education and actively sought out opportunities to grow and contribute, they were all kids excited about learning and whatever their activities were it showed in the application I imagine. That's not a guarantee for a spot at a reachy-reach school, plenty of equally awesome kids with nearly identical apps probably didn't get in. But it's certainly possible.

Totally irrelevant in the TO world.

yeah it's not though. this school's acceptance in rate in last 4 years has gone from 5.91 to 4.46%, a very small change certainly reflective of increased number of applications (TO). It's still nearly impossible to get in, as it always has been. But that doesn't mean that it was previously about "the stats" and now suddenly it's about other things. My kid's stats, for example, were definitely not perfect. They were great, but that's not what got her in. And the other kids I can think of over the years have also not been the perfect stats kids, often not the valedictorians, who have gotten in to the schools with the toughest admissions numbers. you need to understand how holistic admissions works, it has its critics and I get the arguments. but it has always and will continue to give schools the ability to build a class based on a lot of intangibles. so you can think of the stats as the "first round", but a perfect stats kid who doesn't get in to a top school didn't miss out because they didn't have a hook, they just may not have had whatever combination of all the other stuff that spoke to the adcom committee that day.

Institutional priorities have also changed significantly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm seeing that the definition of "hook" might vary.

-Top grades
-Top scores
-Awards
-Leadership
-Volunteer
-Strong eval teachers / alum
-URM / UR rural area

Only the last is a hook.

Some awards could be hooks. Like winning a major science fair, being a Coca-Cola Scholar, etc.

That’s an accomplishment, not a hook.