Anonymous
07/18/2023 20:16
Subject: Re:Need Advice from those in Big Law
Anonymous wrote:
Extremely common? Not in my specialty, anyway. Gov lawyer here, and I've only seen it happen once -- and that was because the line attorney was part of a package deal; he was the service partner who did the work for his bff -- a huge name who brought in clients like a magnet and did little work beyond signing his highly recognizable name on pleadings. Other gov lawyers did leave for firms where they were given the title of partner, but not BigLaw; more like little regional firms you have never heard of, where there are 3-6 partners and you only eat what you kill.
I see it frequently in white collar and antitrust. It used to be that only people in management or with a truly exceptional reputation lateraled in as partners, but now it seems that someone who leads a few significant cases or investigations can pull it off. Multiple classmates of mine did it in 8-9 years (for example, biglaw for three years, AUSA for six years).
Anonymous
07/18/2023 20:06
Subject: Re:Need Advice from those in Big Law
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:What about becoming a non-equity partner ? Is a book of business required ?
Yes, a book of business is required to be any sort of partner. In fact, having a book of business / brining in new clients is the primary thing which determines who makes partner and who doesn’t.
That is not true anymore. Partner class sizes have ballooned since Covid; at most firms, I would wager that at least half of the associates who stick around get promoted around years 8-10. And it’s extremely common now to see government line attorneys 8–10 years out of law school lateral to firms as partners.
That said, once you’re a counsel it’s more difficult to move up, especially for government laterals (home-grown lawyers may have a better shot).
Most of these “partners” are non-equity and will never become equity, which does require a book.
Can you give a couple of examples of top firms where half the associates become partners simply by sticking around? Also “sticking around” is a pretty amorphous concept. The large majority of associates don’t stick around, and most of the ones who do are sticking around because they’re getting good messages about their partnership prospects.
The implication that if you join Biglaw and simply stick around for the for eight years you have a 50% chance of making partner is ludicrous.
Typical new partner class sizes are like 20-30 now, whereas they used to be closer to 10 pre-pandemic. This is true at most firms except a handful of the very top firms that retain equity-only partnerships. Making partner used to be exceedingly difficult but that’s no longer the case. I am not saying it’s easy today, but it’s a realistic, attainable goal.
In 2021 the top 200 law firms - the ones who collectively are known as Biglaw - hired 9286 new associates. That’s an average of 46 per firm. There’s no way in hell that 1/2 to 2/3 of them are making partner. Sorry.
I’m not implying half make it. Far less. Lots of associates leave on their own or get pushed out for various reasons. But these days, if you follow the typical track for good associates (i.e. you get meaningful experience and run matters by the time you’re a senior associate), your odds are pretty good—much much higher than they were ten years go. (Of course, most promotions are non-equity and offer little compensation beyond senior associate pay, plus you lose subsidized health insurance).
Anonymous
07/18/2023 17:33
Subject: Re:Need Advice from those in Big Law
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:What about becoming a non-equity partner ? And it’s extremely common now to see government line attorneys 8–10 years out of law school lateral to firms as partners.
Extremely common? Not in my specialty, anyway. Gov lawyer here, and I've only seen it happen once -- and that was because the line attorney was part of a package deal; he was the service partner who did the work for his bff -- a huge name who brought in clients like a magnet and did little work beyond signing his highly recognizable name on pleadings. Other gov lawyers did leave for firms where they were given the title of partner, but not BigLaw; more like little regional firms you have never heard of, where there are 3-6 partners and you only eat what you kill.
Anonymous
07/18/2023 17:30
Subject: Re:Need Advice from those in Big Law
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:. And it’s extremely common now to see government line attorneys 8–10 years out of law school lateral to firms as partners.
Extremely common? Not in my specialty, anyway. Gov lawyer here, and I've only seen it happen once -- and that was because the line attorney was part of a package deal; he was the service partner who did the work for his bff -- a huge name who brought in clients like a magnet and did little work beyond signing his highly recognizable name on pleadings. Other gov lawyers did leave for firms where they were given the title of partner, but not BigLaw; more like little regional firms you have never heard of, where there are 3-6 partners and you only eat what you kill.
Anonymous
07/18/2023 17:21
Subject: Re:Need Advice from those in Big Law
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:What about becoming a non-equity partner ? Is a book of business required ?
Yes, a book of business is required to be any sort of partner. In fact, having a book of business / brining in new clients is the primary thing which determines who makes partner and who doesn’t.
That is not true anymore. Partner class sizes have ballooned since Covid; at most firms, I would wager that at least half of the associates who stick around get promoted around years 8-10. And it’s extremely common now to see government line attorneys 8–10 years out of law school lateral to firms as partners.
That said, once you’re a counsel it’s more difficult to move up, especially for government laterals (home-grown lawyers may have a better shot).
Most of these “partners” are non-equity and will never become equity, which does require a book.
Can you give a couple of examples of top firms where half the associates become partners simply by sticking around? Also “sticking around” is a pretty amorphous concept. The large majority of associates don’t stick around, and most of the ones who do are sticking around because they’re getting good messages about their partnership prospects.
The implication that if you join Biglaw and simply stick around for the for eight years you have a 50% chance of making partner is ludicrous.
Typical new partner class sizes are like 20-30 now, whereas they used to be closer to 10 pre-pandemic. This is true at most firms except a handful of the very top firms that retain equity-only partnerships. Making partner used to be exceedingly difficult but that’s no longer the case. I am not saying it’s easy today, but it’s a realistic, attainable goal.
In 2021 the top 200 law firms - the ones who collectively are known as Biglaw - hired 9286 new associates. That’s an average of 46 per firm. There’s no way in hell that 1/2 to 2/3 of them are making partner. Sorry.
Here’s a Chambers article on the subject. Yes, there are some outliers, but for the vast majority of the top firms partnership chances are well under 20 percent and in many cases the single digits.
https://www.chambers-associate.com/law-firms/how-many-associates-make-partner
Anonymous
07/18/2023 17:17
Subject: Re:Need Advice from those in Big Law
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:What about becoming a non-equity partner ? Is a book of business required ?
Yes, a book of business is required to be any sort of partner. In fact, having a book of business / brining in new clients is the primary thing which determines who makes partner and who doesn’t.
That is not true anymore. Partner class sizes have ballooned since Covid; at most firms, I would wager that at least half of the associates who stick around get promoted around years 8-10. And it’s extremely common now to see government line attorneys 8–10 years out of law school lateral to firms as partners.
That said, once you’re a counsel it’s more difficult to move up, especially for government laterals (home-grown lawyers may have a better shot).
Most of these “partners” are non-equity and will never become equity, which does require a book.
Can you give a couple of examples of top firms where half the associates become partners simply by sticking around? Also “sticking around” is a pretty amorphous concept. The large majority of associates don’t stick around, and most of the ones who do are sticking around because they’re getting good messages about their partnership prospects.
The implication that if you join Biglaw and simply stick around for the for eight years you have a 50% chance of making partner is ludicrous.
Typical new partner class sizes are like 20-30 now, whereas they used to be closer to 10 pre-pandemic. This is true at most firms except a handful of the very top firms that retain equity-only partnerships. Making partner used to be exceedingly difficult but that’s no longer the case. I am not saying it’s easy today, but it’s a realistic, attainable goal.
In 2021 the top 200 law firms - the ones who collectively are known as Biglaw - hired 9286 new associates. That’s an average of 46 per firm. There’s no way in hell that 1/2 to 2/3 of them are making partner. Sorry.
Anonymous
07/18/2023 17:11
Subject: Need Advice from those in Big Law
Anonymous wrote:Thanks everyone. I asked b/c he has said a few things recently that has led me to believe that he considers himself somewhat of a failure for being stuck at counsel. It doesn’t help either that some of the people he worked with in the government are partners and making big bucks and he’d obviously like to be there. His problem, in this as well as most things, is his own personality getting in the way. That said, we have a nice life and he’s been able to see his children grow up unlike many in big law.
Out of curiosity, how much does he make and how many hours does he bill in his current roll?
Anonymous
07/18/2023 17:08
Subject: Need Advice from those in Big Law
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If he's feeling up for it, he can just ask them if he can use the title of partner and become a non equity partner. Same job but different title. Also, continue to work on developing business. It's not too late to be doing that. Establish a rapport w the clients he works with now -- don't just be the brief writer behind the scenes that the clients don't know.
This should already be a discussion in annual reviews; otherwise he really doesn’t know how to navigate biglaw…
This rarely happens.
Only because people don’t take the initiative to bring it up. Almost everyone I know who has made partner has these discussions regularly and gets clear signals they have a good chance of making it. Firms don’t just surprise people with partner promotions.
I mean, I guess. It’s never gonna fly in the top DC-based firms, which don’t even have non-equity partners. They don’t just hand out the title. And the firms that DO have non-equity and WILL hand it out upon request? It can’t mean very much at those places. As OP said, non-equity is a bullshit title anyway.
It might actually help for marketing purposes, and it sounds like this is where OP's spouse hasn't put in a lot of effort. Which I totally get, btw. Not everyone who goes into law has sales skills, outgoing personalities, people skills, etc. In fact, it's often the opposite...
Anonymous
07/18/2023 13:11
Subject: Re:Need Advice from those in Big Law
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:What about becoming a non-equity partner ? Is a book of business required ?
Yes, a book of business is required to be any sort of partner. In fact, having a book of business / brining in new clients is the primary thing which determines who makes partner and who doesn’t.
That is not true anymore. Partner class sizes have ballooned since Covid; at most firms, I would wager that at least half of the associates who stick around get promoted around years 8-10. And it’s extremely common now to see government line attorneys 8–10 years out of law school lateral to firms as partners.
That said, once you’re a counsel it’s more difficult to move up, especially for government laterals (home-grown lawyers may have a better shot).
Most of these “partners” are non-equity and will never become equity, which does require a book.
Can you give a couple of examples of top firms where half the associates become partners simply by sticking around? Also “sticking around” is a pretty amorphous concept. The large majority of associates don’t stick around, and most of the ones who do are sticking around because they’re getting good messages about their partnership prospects.
The implication that if you join Biglaw and simply stick around for the for eight years you have a 50% chance of making partner is ludicrous.
Typical new partner class sizes are like 20-30 now, whereas they used to be closer to 10 pre-pandemic. This is true at most firms except a handful of the very top firms that retain equity-only partnerships. Making partner used to be exceedingly difficult but that’s no longer the case. I am not saying it’s easy today, but it’s a realistic, attainable goal.
Anonymous
07/18/2023 13:11
Subject: Need Advice from those in Big Law
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If he's feeling up for it, he can just ask them if he can use the title of partner and become a non equity partner. Same job but different title. Also, continue to work on developing business. It's not too late to be doing that. Establish a rapport w the clients he works with now -- don't just be the brief writer behind the scenes that the clients don't know.
This should already be a discussion in annual reviews; otherwise he really doesn’t know how to navigate biglaw…
This rarely happens.
Only because people don’t take the initiative to bring it up. Almost everyone I know who has made partner has these discussions regularly and gets clear signals they have a good chance of making it. Firms don’t just surprise people with partner promotions.
I mean, I guess. It’s never gonna fly in the top DC-based firms, which don’t even have non-equity partners. They don’t just hand out the title. And the firms that DO have non-equity and WILL hand it out upon request? It can’t mean very much at those places. As OP said, non-equity is a bullshit title anyway.
Anonymous
07/18/2023 13:04
Subject: Need Advice from those in Big Law
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If he's feeling up for it, he can just ask them if he can use the title of partner and become a non equity partner. Same job but different title. Also, continue to work on developing business. It's not too late to be doing that. Establish a rapport w the clients he works with now -- don't just be the brief writer behind the scenes that the clients don't know.
This should already be a discussion in annual reviews; otherwise he really doesn’t know how to navigate biglaw…
This rarely happens.
Only because people don’t take the initiative to bring it up. Almost everyone I know who has made partner has these discussions regularly and gets clear signals they have a good chance of making it. Firms don’t just surprise people with partner promotions.
Anonymous
07/18/2023 12:49
Subject: Re:Need Advice from those in Big Law
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:What about becoming a non-equity partner ? Is a book of business required ?
Yes, a book of business is required to be any sort of partner. In fact, having a book of business / brining in new clients is the primary thing which determines who makes partner and who doesn’t.
That is not true anymore. Partner class sizes have ballooned since Covid; at most firms, I would wager that at least half of the associates who stick around get promoted around years 8-10. And it’s extremely common now to see government line attorneys 8–10 years out of law school lateral to firms as partners.
That said, once you’re a counsel it’s more difficult to move up, especially for government laterals (home-grown lawyers may have a better shot).
Most of these “partners” are non-equity and will never become equity, which does require a book.
Can you give a couple of examples of top firms where half the associates become partners simply by sticking around? Also “sticking around” is a pretty amorphous concept. The large majority of associates don’t stick around, and most of the ones who do are sticking around because they’re getting good messages about their partnership prospects.
The implication that if you join Biglaw and simply stick around for the for eight years you have a 50% chance of making partner is ludicrous.
Anonymous
07/18/2023 12:42
Subject: Need Advice from those in Big Law
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:If he's feeling up for it, he can just ask them if he can use the title of partner and become a non equity partner. Same job but different title. Also, continue to work on developing business. It's not too late to be doing that. Establish a rapport w the clients he works with now -- don't just be the brief writer behind the scenes that the clients don't know.
This should already be a discussion in annual reviews; otherwise he really doesn’t know how to navigate biglaw…
This rarely happens.
Anonymous
07/18/2023 12:42
Subject: Need Advice from those in Big Law
Thanks everyone. I asked b/c he has said a few things recently that has led me to believe that he considers himself somewhat of a failure for being stuck at counsel. It doesn’t help either that some of the people he worked with in the government are partners and making big bucks and he’d obviously like to be there. His problem, in this as well as most things, is his own personality getting in the way. That said, we have a nice life and he’s been able to see his children grow up unlike many in big law.
Anonymous
07/18/2023 11:41
Subject: Need Advice from those in Big Law
Anonymous wrote:He's not going to make partner. Sorry. Sounds like he's in a great place without the major stress and hassles of partnership. You're really looking a gift horse in the mouth here. Many partners wish they'd become counsel instead. It's all about hustling to bring in new clients or matters. It's a lot of hours and a ton of stress.
All of this. He has an awesome gig.