I don’t understand why if there are clear examples of states that don’t use race in admissions and haven’t for many years why a whole other system has to be created?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It seems like some people just want to ban black and brown students from ever attending college (as was the case in the past). That would solve all these issues.

Not at all. Black and brown children are just as smart as white children. The problem is that rather than educating them, school systems are 'gaming' the system by handing out diplomas, and declaring success. That allows substandard schools to continue year after year.

If we had a standardized school leaving exam, failing schools would be exposed. The problem would be very embarrassing to many people, which is the real reason this idea will never happen. Although like you, they will claim to be trying to help black and brown children.

Why are they hiding their true capabilities? Are they being humble??

The government bans private admissions standards and criteria and takes over the industry and imposes its own standards and criteria?

So, effectively, socialism in admissions? Why not do the same for private elementary, middle, and high schools while you're at it?

And now that you've opened the door to gov't-controlled admissions, it's pretty easy to standardize GPA by mandating the HS courses and curriculum that would count for GPA (both public and private). In fact, it wouldn't be much of a step at all to actually impose a single national test, like the AP test, for each approved subject, but designed by the government so it wouldn't expose students to uncomfortable facts about history and the like. In fact, you could remove history altogether as one of the approved subjects that counts for admission.

Anonymous wrote:I guess I have to rephrase what I said earlier so somebody isn’t so easily offended by the truth and reports me.

The assumption is that the states can somehow come up with a “standardized test” that is not unfair, not unbiased, and not any subject to manipulation (meaning rich folks with means can prep for it) than what’s already out there. And that’s a big assumption.

You seem like you are not 'knee-jerk' reacting negatively to OP's idea. So let's talk.

SAT - It's a single test that can be taken any number of times. Tons and tons of free resources to prepare. Some expensive tutors offer free services to the underprivileged. Least gameable or the most cheaply gameable, depending on how you look at it. Can it be improved and made less gameable instead of letting each state figure out their own? Probably.

AP Exams or AP-like exams for all subjects - No reason free prep can't be made available similar to the SAT. More gameable compared to the SAT.

GPA - Way more gameable than the SAT and AP exams. 4 years of private tutoring, dissimilar grading and teaching practices, 'teachers pet' syndrome based on moms spending 8 hours a day at school, etc.

ECs - The worst. The uninformed and the poor stand zero chance against the wealthy.

Now tell me which ones are the idiots trying to get rid of? SATs! Which one of the above is not even required during the admissions process? AP scores! Which one is everyone pushing? Essays, ECs, Service activities, etc. all of which can be easily made up or paid for. The one category being pushed is what hurts the poor the most, not standardized tests.

How is the current system any better than what's being proposed?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do you begin to standardize GPAs?

My one kid goes to a DCPS high school where he is getting a 4.7 (4.0 unweighted) for pretty much breathing.
My other kid goes to NCS where she has done about 5 times the work of her brother for an unweighted 3.6 (and there is no weighting for honors or APs beyond this and limited APs even offered).

This is why the proposal is stupid. And you likewise cannot compare the SAT of a kid from Sidwell to a kid from DCPS who lives in poverty---you have to consider the advantages one kid has had all their life over the other and the lack of advantages and the life issues the one kid has had to overcome (most likelY).

DP. One problem, in my opinion, is college admission offices attempting to quantify these types of subjective determinations, i.e., assigning a number to things that are inherently not quantifiable. I don't have ideas for other ways to make admission decisions, though my suspicion is that these attempts at quantifying are more problematic than admission offices realize, in a GIGO sort of way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:States could require the use of standardized testing and codify admissions criteria, including requiring transparency and annual certifications from school officials.

For example, a state could publish an admission grid, wherein applicants are placed into “bands” based on the combination of their standardized scores and grade point averages. They could then allow for other factors to be given a set amount of weight to adjust the ranking in each band based on extracurricular or individual accomplishments. This could be limited to, for example, a 10 or 15 percent step-up from the baseline score in ranking.

Offers of admission would then be based on the ranking, made on a rolling basis downward to fill available seats.

https://thehill.com/opinion/4098712-nuclear-option-have-states-take-over-college-admissions-to-preserve-race-neutrality/

So, more or less import the Chinese civil service examination policy, where your scores determine your position in life?

Sure. I guess we could do that.

Or the person could move to China if that is what they desire.

The arguments against this idea have so far been: 'Merica, love it or leave it! This idea is Marxist. And, black and brown children would suffer.

Anonymous wrote:It seems like some people just want to ban black and brown students from ever attending college (as was the case in the past). That would solve all these issues.

Ironically, they think it's the black/brown students taking their own kids place. Hint---it is not. It is just other highly qualified students, but when admission rates are single digits (or 10-20%) it is a lottery for everyone and they are just pissed they didn't win the lottery

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:States could require the use of standardized testing and codify admissions criteria, including requiring transparency and annual certifications from school officials.

For example, a state could publish an admission grid, wherein applicants are placed into “bands” based on the combination of their standardized scores and grade point averages. They could then allow for other factors to be given a set amount of weight to adjust the ranking in each band based on extracurricular or individual accomplishments. This could be limited to, for example, a 10 or 15 percent step-up from the baseline score in ranking.

Offers of admission would then be based on the ranking, made on a rolling basis downward to fill available seats.

https://thehill.com/opinion/4098712-nuclear-option-have-states-take-over-college-admissions-to-preserve-race-neutrality/

So, more or less import the Chinese civil service examination policy, where your scores determine your position in life?

Sure. I guess we could do that.

Or the person could move to China if that is what they desire.

Anonymous wrote:How do you begin to standardize GPAs?

My one kid goes to a DCPS high school where he is getting a 4.7 (4.0 unweighted) for pretty much breathing.
My other kid goes to NCS where she has done about 5 times the work of her brother for an unweighted 3.6 (and there is no weighting for honors or APs beyond this and limited APs even offered).

This is why the proposal is stupid. And you likewise cannot compare the SAT of a kid from Sidwell to a kid from DCPS who lives in poverty---you have to consider the advantages one kid has had all their life over the other and the lack of advantages and the life issues the one kid has had to overcome (most likelY).

Anonymous wrote:It seems like some people just want to ban black and brown students from ever attending college (as was the case in the past). That would solve all these issues.

Unless they are South Asian…in my neighborhood these black and brown children are academically at the top - daughters and sons of IT engineers who emigrated from India.

Anonymous wrote:OP is quite the Marxist.

Yeah we can erase all differences like Mao did (eliminate gender, race, etc.), and be governed by a gaggle of engineers who are good at taking tests (human rights and social justice are a real drag). Maybe we can get some cool uniforms too. College admissions would be vastly improved.

Anonymous wrote:State universities could choose this. But privates? Doubtful. Plus, do you really want the govt further involved in admissions?

+1000

Plus, this is already done at several non-elite large state schools---U of Alabama and WVU for example. They list the merit you get (in state and oos) for various combinations of SAT/GPA. These schools have high admission rates, so if most get in.

This won't help at more elite schools/lower admission rates. This won't solve the issue of why your kid didn't get into UVA or UMD CS or engineering program.

Don't want the stress of college admissions, don't apply to schools with less than 40-50% acceptance rates and your kid will be fine

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:States could require the use of standardized testing and codify admissions criteria, including requiring transparency and annual certifications from school officials.

For example, a state could publish an admission grid, wherein applicants are placed into “bands” based on the combination of their standardized scores and grade point averages. They could then allow for other factors to be given a set amount of weight to adjust the ranking in each band based on extracurricular or individual accomplishments. This could be limited to, for example, a 10 or 15 percent step-up from the baseline score in ranking.

Offers of admission would then be based on the ranking, made on a rolling basis downward to fill available seats.

https://thehill.com/opinion/4098712-nuclear-option-have-states-take-over-college-admissions-to-preserve-race-neutrality/

So, more or less import the Chinese civil service examination policy, where your scores determine your position in life?

Sure. I guess we could do that.

Are you one of those people who think the American way is always the best way? We need to stop being so arrogant and consider that other countries may actually (gasp!) have something to teach us.

But, I guess if you're privileged and the current system is set up to pass privilege from parent to child, then everything works fine, right?

Hey, I said we could certainly try that.

Tell me, why would comparing it to the Chinese civil service exam be taken as an automatic negative by you, hmm? What's up with that?

If you have ever been to China, and most people are banking on the fact that you haven't, you would understand why we do NOT want to be China.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:States could require the use of standardized testing and codify admissions criteria, including requiring transparency and annual certifications from school officials.

For example, a state could publish an admission grid, wherein applicants are placed into “bands” based on the combination of their standardized scores and grade point averages. They could then allow for other factors to be given a set amount of weight to adjust the ranking in each band based on extracurricular or individual accomplishments. This could be limited to, for example, a 10 or 15 percent step-up from the baseline score in ranking.

Offers of admission would then be based on the ranking, made on a rolling basis downward to fill available seats.

https://thehill.com/opinion/4098712-nuclear-option-have-states-take-over-college-admissions-to-preserve-race-neutrality/

So, more or less import the Chinese civil service examination policy, where your scores determine your position in life?

Sure. I guess we could do that.

LOL. Right? This isn't China.

Classroms full of kids who only contribute mastery of AP curriculums. Meh, doesn’t sound like way to go with a plural society with a diverse economy.