Anonymous
07/14/2023 08:59
Subject: Elementary schools falling apart?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's almost like a hugely disruptive global pandemic is continuing to have disruptive effects...
It’s almost as though my kid didn’t have those issues at her private school this past year.
But sure. Continue to pretend it’s like that everywhere.
It's almost like schools that can choose whom to admit and whom to kick out have fewer disruptive students than public schools that are required to accept everyone.
When I was a kid, they disciplined disruptive kids and separated out kids who are unable to sit quietly to learn. Consequently I actually learned something from real hard copy textbooks and teachers actually taught grammar and we read high quality works.
I feel sorry for sped students who are unable to sit quietly to learn and end up wandering around the classroom, and then often meltdown by the end of the day. How is this good for the sped student? The class atmosphere is inappropriate for them and it is difficult for neurotypical students to learn in this environment.
Suspensions were a serious matter and too many could lead to being expelled. Consequently, the well behaved students were rewarded for their good behavior and the disruptive students faced consequences.
Exactly. Public schools can do quite a bit, up to and including expulsions. They just choose not to.
Public schools cannot expel elementary schoolers, or at least not without a massive struggle. Nor do we want them to be able to expel elementary schoolers because that's terrible for society.
Many of us are not suggesting expelling them, but segregating them. Students are in the general population until they become a danger to the teacher and/or other students. Children who exhibit violence need to be taken out of the general population and put into classes where SPED teachers can work with them. In many cases, these children are overstimulated in the general population. Having a child with sensory issues in a busy classroom with 24 other children, the associated noise and commotion, may be too much for them to handle and putting them into a smaller population with more focused attention from an educator that is trained to handle them is a better use of time and resources for everyone involved.
Federal law entitles a student with a disability to a free appropriate public education. There is no asterisk for *except if the student bothers other students.
What the PP was suggesting may be more appropriate though. For everyone involved- you think it's appropriate for the kid with extreme sensory issues to be forced into a busy classroom where they constantly feel overwhelmed?
Anonymous
07/13/2023 23:07
Subject: Elementary schools falling apart?
Anonymous wrote:It's not about a sped kid acting out.
It's about the teacher not maintaining control of the class.
And not to say it's teacher's fault. Large classes, lack of parent support, who knows.
Anonymous
07/13/2023 23:06
Subject: Elementary schools falling apart?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's almost like a hugely disruptive global pandemic is continuing to have disruptive effects...
It’s almost as though my kid didn’t have those issues at her private school this past year.
But sure. Continue to pretend it’s like that everywhere.
It's almost like schools that can choose whom to admit and whom to kick out have fewer disruptive students than public schools that are required to accept everyone.
When I was a kid, they disciplined disruptive kids and separated out kids who are unable to sit quietly to learn. Consequently I actually learned something from real hard copy textbooks and teachers actually taught grammar and we read high quality works.
I feel sorry for sped students who are unable to sit quietly to learn and end up wandering around the classroom, and then often meltdown by the end of the day. How is this good for the sped student? The class atmosphere is inappropriate for them and it is difficult for neurotypical students to learn in this environment.
Suspensions were a serious matter and too many could lead to being expelled. Consequently, the well behaved students were rewarded for their good behavior and the disruptive students faced consequences.
Exactly. Public schools can do quite a bit, up to and including expulsions. They just choose not to.
Public schools cannot expel elementary schoolers, or at least not without a massive struggle. Nor do we want them to be able to expel elementary schoolers because that's terrible for society.
Many of us are not suggesting expelling them, but segregating them. Students are in the general population until they become a danger to the teacher and/or other students. Children who exhibit violence need to be taken out of the general population and put into classes where SPED teachers can work with them. In many cases, these children are overstimulated in the general population. Having a child with sensory issues in a busy classroom with 24 other children, the associated noise and commotion, may be too much for them to handle and putting them into a smaller population with more focused attention from an educator that is trained to handle them is a better use of time and resources for everyone involved.
Federal law entitles a student with a disability to a free appropriate public education. There is no asterisk for *except if the student bothers other students.
That has nothing to do with anything. If a student isn't engaging with the class or the material, they aren't getting a free and appropriate education.
Anonymous
07/13/2023 23:03
Subject: Elementary schools falling apart?
It's not about a sped kid acting out.
It's about the teacher not maintaining control of the class.
It's about the teacher not maintaining control of the class.
Anonymous
07/13/2023 21:33
Subject: Re:Elementary schools falling apart?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:There are two large contributing factors.
First, in the past SPED students were separated from genpop. While it was terrible for the SPED students, it was good for the gen pop. We have now swung too far in the other direction. We have now incorporated the SPED students in the gen pop. While that is good for most of the SPED students, there are some SPED students who are too far outside the social norms that teachers can handle and we are requiring the teachers to keep them there. I have a child who was in a class with one of these way too difficult SPED children and at least every other day, the students had to be evacuated from the room when the child became violent and the teacher was not allowed to discipline or restrict the child. The other 22 children had to them go and sit in the hallway while a SPED teacher was brought from another assignment to come and deal with the child. The other 22 children lost valuable learning time repeatedly for this one child. We need to be able to find a middle ground. Incorporate the SPED students into the gen pop, but when some children because a danger to the teacher and other students, they should be removed from the general classroom and and alternative learning plan needs to be developed for that child. This bending over backwards to accommodate is not at all fair to the larger population of students who have to deal with these children. Now the policies towards SPED children are often dictated at the state level and not at the county/school district level. This needs to be addressed by the state school superintendent, but it is not political advantageous to do so.
Second, entitled parents have become worse. I know several MCPS teachers who have said that they have a lot of problems maintaining discipline in classrooms because the attitude of the school district is now to cave to whiny entitled parents. Children are children. Teachers try to discipline them and the child complains at home. In the past, many parents would try to then deal with the situation at home, teach their children manners, teach them how to cope and move on. Now, many of those entitled parents demand meetings with the teacher and/or administration and complain about how their little snowflake was treated in class. And the administration is caving to them and changing the way that teachers deal with such children and restricting teachers from maintaining discipline in class. My friends tell me the number of difficult parents has been on a steady rise for some time now and there is no evidence of it declining.
So, MD state needs to address the SPED problem and there needs to be a way to curb the overentitled parents for the situation to change.
+1
Both these are the biggest issues and teachers’ live won’t get better until they are both dealt with.
If a child becomes violent and starts throwing things every other day, that does not seem to be a good arrangement for that child. If it should happen to be a child who deliberately acts out, then it’s a disciplinary matter. I think it more likely that it’s a desperate cry for help, in which case keeping them in that same situation is cruel. If it’s a child going through a specific crisis, there needs to be some sort of procedure to get them help (counselor, nurse, social services, etc.). If it’s a child with special needs that we anticipate having problems, there should be a plan in place that is adapted until the child is not driven to lash out. I’m no expert. Surely those who are experts might have recommendations for best practices. Whether that’s separating them from their mainstream peers for part or all of the day, giving them a pass to the counselor to use when necessary, giving them an individual aide who can take them to the gym to run off excess energy or to take them to a room where they can lay down for a while and listen to soft music, etc. I really don’t know what the answer is, and I suspect it may vary according to the individual child. What I do know is that the current arrangements aren’t working for the children who are becoming violently upset, it isn’t working for the children who are having their education interrupted and are being traumatized, and it’s not working for the teachers who are struggling just to keep everyone (including themselves) safe, let alone trying to teach.
There’s a quote that says, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. Isn’t it time to stop the insanity and try something (anything) different, and adapt as necessary until we find a way to help those with special needs who are suffering under the current system, and consequently help everyone else, as well.
It feels like nobody in a position of leadership in MCPS cares about this at all.
Not the BOE. Not McKnight. Not Central Office.
Teachers and other students deal with nonsense daily in MCPS. It is an incredibly stressful, crappy work environment.
Anonymous
07/13/2023 20:28
Subject: Re:Elementary schools falling apart?
Anonymous wrote:There are two large contributing factors.
First, in the past SPED students were separated from genpop. While it was terrible for the SPED students, it was good for the gen pop. We have now swung too far in the other direction. We have now incorporated the SPED students in the gen pop. While that is good for most of the SPED students, there are some SPED students who are too far outside the social norms that teachers can handle and we are requiring the teachers to keep them there. I have a child who was in a class with one of these way too difficult SPED children and at least every other day, the students had to be evacuated from the room when the child became violent and the teacher was not allowed to discipline or restrict the child. The other 22 children had to them go and sit in the hallway while a SPED teacher was brought from another assignment to come and deal with the child. The other 22 children lost valuable learning time repeatedly for this one child. We need to be able to find a middle ground. Incorporate the SPED students into the gen pop, but when some children because a danger to the teacher and other students, they should be removed from the general classroom and and alternative learning plan needs to be developed for that child. This bending over backwards to accommodate is not at all fair to the larger population of students who have to deal with these children. Now the policies towards SPED children are often dictated at the state level and not at the county/school district level. This needs to be addressed by the state school superintendent, but it is not political advantageous to do so.
Second, entitled parents have become worse. I know several MCPS teachers who have said that they have a lot of problems maintaining discipline in classrooms because the attitude of the school district is now to cave to whiny entitled parents. Children are children. Teachers try to discipline them and the child complains at home. In the past, many parents would try to then deal with the situation at home, teach their children manners, teach them how to cope and move on. Now, many of those entitled parents demand meetings with the teacher and/or administration and complain about how their little snowflake was treated in class. And the administration is caving to them and changing the way that teachers deal with such children and restricting teachers from maintaining discipline in class. My friends tell me the number of difficult parents has been on a steady rise for some time now and there is no evidence of it declining.
So, MD state needs to address the SPED problem and there needs to be a way to curb the overentitled parents for the situation to change.
Stop referring to students without IEP's as being in "gen pop". This is school, not prison. Most kids with special needs are lovely little humans who actually CAN be integrated with the rest of the school...most kids with IEP's are not violent or disruptive.
Students who are violent or consistently disruptive do need a different setting because it is better for THEM and for everyone else.
Anonymous
07/13/2023 20:20
Subject: Elementary schools falling apart?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think it's a combination of virtual school, exhausted parents, permissive parenting practices that that prioritize the individual feeling special and good at the cost of a functional community, lack of clear and specific consequences for bad behavior, and large class sizes.
Virtual was two years ago. Not an excuse anymore.
Teachers are still dealing with unacceptable behavior in their classrooms that is at least partly the result of virtual schooling.
Nah, it’s not because of virtual schooling. Kids were out of control prior to the pandemic. The difference now is that teachers were told to give students grace. Grace for assignments not completed, grace for a child throwing a chair, bc that child is in crisis, grace because they don’t want to upset parents causing them to call the media or BOE. A principal told a long term sub at his school that they are in customer service and they shouldn’t upset the students for telling them they were being rude. Sub was told to apologize to the students. She refused and was asked not to return. No wonder teachers are lowering their expectations for work and behavior. It’s a no-win situation. Lord of the flies these days!
Anonymous
07/13/2023 19:50
Subject: Re:Elementary schools falling apart?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:There are two large contributing factors.
First, in the past SPED students were separated from genpop. While it was terrible for the SPED students, it was good for the gen pop. We have now swung too far in the other direction. We have now incorporated the SPED students in the gen pop. While that is good for most of the SPED students, there are some SPED students who are too far outside the social norms that teachers can handle and we are requiring the teachers to keep them there. I have a child who was in a class with one of these way too difficult SPED children and at least every other day, the students had to be evacuated from the room when the child became violent and the teacher was not allowed to discipline or restrict the child. The other 22 children had to them go and sit in the hallway while a SPED teacher was brought from another assignment to come and deal with the child. The other 22 children lost valuable learning time repeatedly for this one child. We need to be able to find a middle ground. Incorporate the SPED students into the gen pop, but when some children because a danger to the teacher and other students, they should be removed from the general classroom and and alternative learning plan needs to be developed for that child. This bending over backwards to accommodate is not at all fair to the larger population of students who have to deal with these children. Now the policies towards SPED children are often dictated at the state level and not at the county/school district level. This needs to be addressed by the state school superintendent, but it is not political advantageous to do so.
Second, entitled parents have become worse. I know several MCPS teachers who have said that they have a lot of problems maintaining discipline in classrooms because the attitude of the school district is now to cave to whiny entitled parents. Children are children. Teachers try to discipline them and the child complains at home. In the past, many parents would try to then deal with the situation at home, teach their children manners, teach them how to cope and move on. Now, many of those entitled parents demand meetings with the teacher and/or administration and complain about how their little snowflake was treated in class. And the administration is caving to them and changing the way that teachers deal with such children and restricting teachers from maintaining discipline in class. My friends tell me the number of difficult parents has been on a steady rise for some time now and there is no evidence of it declining.
So, MD state needs to address the SPED problem and there needs to be a way to curb the overentitled parents for the situation to change.
+1
Both these are the biggest issues and teachers’ live won’t get better until they are both dealt with.
If a child becomes violent and starts throwing things every other day, that does not seem to be a good arrangement for that child. If it should happen to be a child who deliberately acts out, then it’s a disciplinary matter. I think it more likely that it’s a desperate cry for help, in which case keeping them in that same situation is cruel. If it’s a child going through a specific crisis, there needs to be some sort of procedure to get them help (counselor, nurse, social services, etc.). If it’s a child with special needs that we anticipate having problems, there should be a plan in place that is adapted until the child is not driven to lash out. I’m no expert. Surely those who are experts might have recommendations for best practices. Whether that’s separating them from their mainstream peers for part or all of the day, giving them a pass to the counselor to use when necessary, giving them an individual aide who can take them to the gym to run off excess energy or to take them to a room where they can lay down for a while and listen to soft music, etc. I really don’t know what the answer is, and I suspect it may vary according to the individual child. What I do know is that the current arrangements aren’t working for the children who are becoming violently upset, it isn’t working for the children who are having their education interrupted and are being traumatized, and it’s not working for the teachers who are struggling just to keep everyone (including themselves) safe, let alone trying to teach.
There’s a quote that says, “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”. Isn’t it time to stop the insanity and try something (anything) different, and adapt as necessary until we find a way to help those with special needs who are suffering under the current system, and consequently help everyone else, as well.
Anonymous
07/13/2023 19:09
Subject: Re:Elementary schools falling apart?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Children with behavioral issues are not all receiving SPED services. Maybe some need to be identified and get an IEP, but there are others who just have terrible behavior because they can and there are no consequences at home.
And no consequences at school. Kids learn early that they can act up at school and that behavior just gets worse as they progress into MS and HS.
It’s true that their behavior might get overall worse, but elementary schools have no security guards and no ability to assign consequences. My own children are always amazed at the behaviors that I have to just deal with in an elementary school classroom. The same behaviors are not tolerated at the higher levels (kids throwing punches in the classroom is a behavior that teachers should deal with in elem but security is called in middle/high). Also, as bad as it sounds, kids in middle/high skip classes when they’re in a mood, but not in elementary. The elementary schools are a MESS and it is not due to COVID.
Anonymous
07/13/2023 18:54
Subject: Re:Elementary schools falling apart?
Anonymous wrote:Children with behavioral issues are not all receiving SPED services. Maybe some need to be identified and get an IEP, but there are others who just have terrible behavior because they can and there are no consequences at home.
And no consequences at school. Kids learn early that they can act up at school and that behavior just gets worse as they progress into MS and HS.
Anonymous
07/13/2023 18:38
Subject: Re:Elementary schools falling apart?
Children with behavioral issues are not all receiving SPED services. Maybe some need to be identified and get an IEP, but there are others who just have terrible behavior because they can and there are no consequences at home.
Anonymous
07/13/2023 18:17
Subject: Elementary schools falling apart?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I think it's a combination of virtual school, exhausted parents, permissive parenting practices that that prioritize the individual feeling special and good at the cost of a functional community, lack of clear and specific consequences for bad behavior, and large class sizes.
Virtual was two years ago. Not an excuse anymore.
Teachers are still dealing with unacceptable behavior in their classrooms that is at least partly the result of virtual schooling.
Anonymous
07/13/2023 18:14
Subject: Elementary schools falling apart?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's almost like a hugely disruptive global pandemic is continuing to have disruptive effects...
It’s almost as though my kid didn’t have those issues at her private school this past year.
But sure. Continue to pretend it’s like that everywhere.
It's almost like schools that can choose whom to admit and whom to kick out have fewer disruptive students than public schools that are required to accept everyone.
When I was a kid, they disciplined disruptive kids and separated out kids who are unable to sit quietly to learn. Consequently I actually learned something from real hard copy textbooks and teachers actually taught grammar and we read high quality works.
I feel sorry for sped students who are unable to sit quietly to learn and end up wandering around the classroom, and then often meltdown by the end of the day. How is this good for the sped student? The class atmosphere is inappropriate for them and it is difficult for neurotypical students to learn in this environment.
Suspensions were a serious matter and too many could lead to being expelled. Consequently, the well behaved students were rewarded for their good behavior and the disruptive students faced consequences.
Exactly. Public schools can do quite a bit, up to and including expulsions. They just choose not to.
Public schools cannot expel elementary schoolers, or at least not without a massive struggle. Nor do we want them to be able to expel elementary schoolers because that's terrible for society.
Many of us are not suggesting expelling them, but segregating them. Students are in the general population until they become a danger to the teacher and/or other students. Children who exhibit violence need to be taken out of the general population and put into classes where SPED teachers can work with them. In many cases, these children are overstimulated in the general population. Having a child with sensory issues in a busy classroom with 24 other children, the associated noise and commotion, may be too much for them to handle and putting them into a smaller population with more focused attention from an educator that is trained to handle them is a better use of time and resources for everyone involved.
Federal law entitles a student with a disability to a free appropriate public education. There is no asterisk for *except if the student bothers other students.
Anonymous
07/13/2023 18:07
Subject: Elementary schools falling apart?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's almost like a hugely disruptive global pandemic is continuing to have disruptive effects...
It’s almost as though my kid didn’t have those issues at her private school this past year.
But sure. Continue to pretend it’s like that everywhere.
It's almost like schools that can choose whom to admit and whom to kick out have fewer disruptive students than public schools that are required to accept everyone.
When I was a kid, they disciplined disruptive kids and separated out kids who are unable to sit quietly to learn. Consequently I actually learned something from real hard copy textbooks and teachers actually taught grammar and we read high quality works.
I feel sorry for sped students who are unable to sit quietly to learn and end up wandering around the classroom, and then often meltdown by the end of the day. How is this good for the sped student? The class atmosphere is inappropriate for them and it is difficult for neurotypical students to learn in this environment.
Suspensions were a serious matter and too many could lead to being expelled. Consequently, the well behaved students were rewarded for their good behavior and the disruptive students faced consequences.
Exactly. Public schools can do quite a bit, up to and including expulsions. They just choose not to.
Public schools cannot expel elementary schoolers, or at least not without a massive struggle. Nor do we want them to be able to expel elementary schoolers because that's terrible for society.
And meanwhile, those 1 or 2 difficult children ruin the educational and social experiences of 24 other kids. And are causing teachers to quit en masse because they can't do anything about it.
Trying to normalize SPED kids into regular classrooms has been a terrible mistake.They need to be separated and put into environments that can handle their needs. Allowing teachers to teach classes full of reasonably well-behaved children should not be some kind of issue. If a child is ruining everything for everyone else, they need to be removed. This should not be an issue.
Not for the first time on DCUM, I'm marveling at a poster who seems to believe they know about education based on their personal experience as a student.
Anonymous
07/13/2023 18:04
Subject: Elementary schools falling apart?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's almost like a hugely disruptive global pandemic is continuing to have disruptive effects...
It’s almost as though my kid didn’t have those issues at her private school this past year.
But sure. Continue to pretend it’s like that everywhere.
It's almost like schools that can choose whom to admit and whom to kick out have fewer disruptive students than public schools that are required to accept everyone.
When I was a kid, they disciplined disruptive kids and separated out kids who are unable to sit quietly to learn. Consequently I actually learned something from real hard copy textbooks and teachers actually taught grammar and we read high quality works.
I feel sorry for sped students who are unable to sit quietly to learn and end up wandering around the classroom, and then often meltdown by the end of the day. How is this good for the sped student? The class atmosphere is inappropriate for them and it is difficult for neurotypical students to learn in this environment.
Suspensions were a serious matter and too many could lead to being expelled. Consequently, the well behaved students were rewarded for their good behavior and the disruptive students faced consequences.
Exactly. Public schools can do quite a bit, up to and including expulsions. They just choose not to.
Public schools cannot expel elementary schoolers, or at least not without a massive struggle. Nor do we want them to be able to expel elementary schoolers because that's terrible for society.
Many of us are not suggesting expelling them, but segregating them. Students are in the general population until they become a danger to the teacher and/or other students. Children who exhibit violence need to be taken out of the general population and put into classes where SPED teachers can work with them. In many cases, these children are overstimulated in the general population. Having a child with sensory issues in a busy classroom with 24 other children, the associated noise and commotion, may be too much for them to handle and putting them into a smaller population with more focused attention from an educator that is trained to handle them is a better use of time and resources for everyone involved.