Anonymous wrote:How does this happen? I have encountered several people like this. Very loving families, would themselves describe their parents and families as loving, supportive, and functional and also it looks that way via observation. No childhood trauma or evidence of abuse/neglect. Continued support into adulthood.

But then they are jerks. Or have the capacity to be jerks in certain circumstances where it's surprising to see it come out. I know several women with this background, for instance, who are total "mean girl" gossips -- spread nasty rumors about women they claim they are friends with, can be very selfish with their time, demand attention and can be petty or cruel if they don't feel they get it.

How does this happen? I thought good parenting was supposed to address behaviors like this. Were they too doted on? Favorite daughters whose behavior didn't get corrected? I always figured people who acted like this were acting out of insecurity and some kind of childhood wound, but perhaps I was wrong.

Asking partly out of curiosity, and partly because I want to avoid raising a person who behaves this way in adulthood.

Most likely kid was spoiled rotten. Things are rarely as they seem on the outside. Ask me how I know.
-Former live-in nanny who saw it all

Anonymous wrote:Lack of any sort of adversity in life can make a person very unempathetic. Also, it could be that this person feels entitled to always be on top of the social hierarchy, because that’s what s/he is used to or was led to believe is their right based on what they were led to believe.

This and also the simple answer is, spoiled.

Never underestimate family genetics. Just take a look at a person's extended family.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does this happen? I have encountered several people like this. Very loving families, would themselves describe their parents and families as loving, supportive, and functional and also it looks that way via observation. No childhood trauma or evidence of abuse/neglect. Continued support into adulthood.

But then they are jerks. Or have the capacity to be jerks in certain circumstances where it's surprising to see it come out. I know several women with this background, for instance, who are total "mean girl" gossips -- spread nasty rumors about women they claim they are friends with, can be very selfish with their time, demand attention and can be petty or cruel if they don't feel they get it.

How does this happen? I thought good parenting was supposed to address behaviors like this. Were they too doted on? Favorite daughters whose behavior didn't get corrected? I always figured people who acted like this were acting out of insecurity and some kind of childhood wound, but perhaps I was wrong.

Asking partly out of curiosity, and partly because I want to avoid raising a person who behaves this way in adulthood.

So many assumptions, so little time, OP.

Truth is, you have zero idea what people are going through.

That's... not an answer. If it isn't family dysfunction or poor parenting that causes this behavior, what is it? What are people "going through" that causes people with good parents and happy childhoods to be unkind or even cruel?

Agree that you really, really don't know about "Trauma" with a big T -- ask me what my closest friends from forever didn't know about me and which I even denied to myself. And trauma with a small T is very complicated. What may be traumatic to you may not be to another person.
This is harsh to say, but since you asked, if your kids had trauma with a small t, my guess would be from this short post that their mother 1) might deny reality and 2) was judgmental and not understanding. I know that is harsh to say, but it's clear you haven't had the misery of learning this yet the hard way, or if you did, you didn't heal properly yourself from it. (See what I did there?)

In fact -- it could absolutely mess a person up for the parent to not be validating of emotions, or tell a kid their emotions are not legit. It's one of the first rules of parenting. And I could see this in the OP.

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Anonymous wrote:How does this happen? I have encountered several people like this. Very loving families, would themselves describe their parents and families as loving, supportive, and functional and also it looks that way via observation. No childhood trauma or evidence of abuse/neglect. Continued support into adulthood.

But then they are jerks. Or have the capacity to be jerks in certain circumstances where it's surprising to see it come out. I know several women with this background, for instance, who are total "mean girl" gossips -- spread nasty rumors about women they claim they are friends with, can be very selfish with their time, demand attention and can be petty or cruel if they don't feel they get it.

How does this happen? I thought good parenting was supposed to address behaviors like this. Were they too doted on? Favorite daughters whose behavior didn't get corrected? I always figured people who acted like this were acting out of insecurity and some kind of childhood wound, but perhaps I was wrong.

Asking partly out of curiosity, and partly because I want to avoid raising a person who behaves this way in adulthood.

So many assumptions, so little time, OP.

Truth is, you have zero idea what people are going through.

That's... not an answer. If it isn't family dysfunction or poor parenting that causes this behavior, what is it? What are people "going through" that causes people with good parents and happy childhoods to be unkind or even cruel?

Grief
Illness
Divorce
Addiction
Adultery
Financial troubles
Job instability

Or any other adverse condition that happens to adults over their lifetime

The people I'm talking about are not going through divorce, illness, job instability, or financial troubles. And they are protected from the last two because of comfortable backgrounds that helped ensure they started out life with the best possible education and a lot of financial stability.

Why would someone with loving, supportive family and no childhood trauma develop addiction issues? Does that actually happen? Everyone I know with addiction and mental health issues can trace it at least in part to childhood issues.

So that leaves grief and adultery. Which sure, can befall anyone. But shouldn't someone from a loving, supportive, UMC or UC home know of ways to handle those things that don't involve treating other people terribly?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but these responses are still not explaining why someone who has the background we'd all like to give our children (presumably) would behave in ways that are unequivocally unkind.

I am a very pleasant person, one of the friendliest you will meet. Everyone told me forever how great my parents were. They were not great parents and terrible role models. To this day, people think we are super close. We aren’t.

There was no abuse. But they weren’t good parents - though they did try hard. Most anyone who knows us would think I am being ungrateful. I constantly hear what a great family I have. But they weren’t good parents. I got through it but it created a mental grit that few realize about me.

Unless you have some secret knowledge of what living with the parents for 18 years was actually like, you have no idea how parents shape their kids.

I’m curious to know what happened that was not abuse but results in awful parenting but that would be invisible to others?

Also, do you have siblings? Even if their experience was different, they would have SOME idea of what your childhood was like.

Not PP but I have seen parents trying to parent a kid they don’t have. Paying for all the sports and extracurriculars when they have an introverted bookworm. Insisting on academically oriented private school and tutoring and Ivy applications for a kid who would rather focus on art and theatre and their friend group. Trying to talk through every feeling immediately when the kid wants time to think things through and process on their own. None of it’s abusive and it’s great parenting in some cases but it’s not great parenting for that specific kid.

This is a really good point. It's particularly common when the parents are great, well-meaning, stable people but both parents' innate natures and communication and parenting styles aren't compatible with those of the child. Sometiems it's magnified when the parents' styles do mesh with the other sibling(s) and not the child. Then the child also feels left out and like something is wrong with him/her.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does this happen? I have encountered several people like this. Very loving families, would themselves describe their parents and families as loving, supportive, and functional and also it looks that way via observation. No childhood trauma or evidence of abuse/neglect. Continued support into adulthood.

But then they are jerks. Or have the capacity to be jerks in certain circumstances where it's surprising to see it come out. I know several women with this background, for instance, who are total "mean girl" gossips -- spread nasty rumors about women they claim they are friends with, can be very selfish with their time, demand attention and can be petty or cruel if they don't feel they get it.

How does this happen? I thought good parenting was supposed to address behaviors like this. Were they too doted on? Favorite daughters whose behavior didn't get corrected? I always figured people who acted like this were acting out of insecurity and some kind of childhood wound, but perhaps I was wrong.

Asking partly out of curiosity, and partly because I want to avoid raising a person who behaves this way in adulthood.

So many assumptions, so little time, OP.

Truth is, you have zero idea what people are going through.

+1

Could be lots of things. Could be that supportive family only exists if they’re perfect, or that the little princess was a mean girl but the parents thought she could do no wrong. Could be mental illness. Could be that she did have childhood trauma but you’re not aware, and she’s not advertising it because most people don’t. Could be they’re dealing with something terrible now and it’s making them snap. Could be as simple as being rude works for them and gets results. Could be that they don’t think there’s anything wrong with their behavior and lack empathy. Could be that there’s nothing wrong with their behavior and you’re too sensitive. There’s no way to know. If you don’t like them, don’t hang out with them anymore because you shouldn’t waste you’re time with people you don’t like.

The people I'm thinking of definitely don't have childhood trauma. I know you'll tell me "you can't know that" but I do know it.

The behavior I'm talking about is unequivocally unkind, not up for debate.

So you've got: mental illness, permissive parents who ignored bad behavior, or some kind of ongoing issue that is making them "snap" (though again, this begs the question, wouldn't someone well parented with good family support have some built-in backstops to prevent "snapping"? if your family is loving and supportive and amazing, why would you need to take out frustration or whatever on someone else when you could just lean on your family in a time of need -- it's a dysfunctional behavior).

It seems like you are talking about one person in particular

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does this happen? I have encountered several people like this. Very loving families, would themselves describe their parents and families as loving, supportive, and functional and also it looks that way via observation. No childhood trauma or evidence of abuse/neglect. Continued support into adulthood.

But then they are jerks. Or have the capacity to be jerks in certain circumstances where it's surprising to see it come out. I know several women with this background, for instance, who are total "mean girl" gossips -- spread nasty rumors about women they claim they are friends with, can be very selfish with their time, demand attention and can be petty or cruel if they don't feel they get it.

How does this happen? I thought good parenting was supposed to address behaviors like this. Were they too doted on? Favorite daughters whose behavior didn't get corrected? I always figured people who acted like this were acting out of insecurity and some kind of childhood wound, but perhaps I was wrong.

Asking partly out of curiosity, and partly because I want to avoid raising a person who behaves this way in adulthood.

So many assumptions, so little time, OP.

Truth is, you have zero idea what people are going through.

+1

Could be lots of things. Could be that supportive family only exists if they’re perfect, or that the little princess was a mean girl but the parents thought she could do no wrong. Could be mental illness. Could be that she did have childhood trauma but you’re not aware, and she’s not advertising it because most people don’t. Could be they’re dealing with something terrible now and it’s making them snap. Could be as simple as being rude works for them and gets results. Could be that they don’t think there’s anything wrong with their behavior and lack empathy. Could be that there’s nothing wrong with their behavior and you’re too sensitive. There’s no way to know. If you don’t like them, don’t hang out with them anymore because you shouldn’t waste you’re time with people you don’t like.

The people I'm thinking of definitely don't have childhood trauma. I know you'll tell me "you can't know that" but I do know it.

The behavior I'm talking about is unequivocally unkind, not up for debate.

So you've got: mental illness, permissive parents who ignored bad behavior, or some kind of ongoing issue that is making them "snap" (though again, this begs the question, wouldn't someone well parented with good family support have some built-in backstops to prevent "snapping"? if your family is loving and supportive and amazing, why would you need to take out frustration or whatever on someone else when you could just lean on your family in a time of need -- it's a dysfunctional behavior).

I have 3 close friends from when I was 7. I am now 51. 2 sets of our parents are literally in a nursing home together, so very close family friends. I tell them everything. I also have a sister.
You would think that I am the sort of person who would tell everything, I am like that... I talk about "deep" personal issues a lot, am very open generally.
What my sister and 3 friends didn't know until we were 45 is that I was sexually abused by our father.
So no, you really don't know.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does this happen? I have encountered several people like this. Very loving families, would themselves describe their parents and families as loving, supportive, and functional and also it looks that way via observation. No childhood trauma or evidence of abuse/neglect. Continued support into adulthood.

But then they are jerks. Or have the capacity to be jerks in certain circumstances where it's surprising to see it come out. I know several women with this background, for instance, who are total "mean girl" gossips -- spread nasty rumors about women they claim they are friends with, can be very selfish with their time, demand attention and can be petty or cruel if they don't feel they get it.

How does this happen? I thought good parenting was supposed to address behaviors like this. Were they too doted on? Favorite daughters whose behavior didn't get corrected? I always figured people who acted like this were acting out of insecurity and some kind of childhood wound, but perhaps I was wrong.

Asking partly out of curiosity, and partly because I want to avoid raising a person who behaves this way in adulthood.

So many assumptions, so little time, OP.

Truth is, you have zero idea what people are going through.

That's... not an answer. If it isn't family dysfunction or poor parenting that causes this behavior, what is it? What are people "going through" that causes people with good parents and happy childhoods to be unkind or even cruel?

Agree that you really, really don't know about "Trauma" with a big T -- ask me what my closest friends from forever didn't know about me and which I even denied to myself. And trauma with a small T is very complicated. What may be traumatic to you may not be to another person.
This is harsh to say, but since you asked, if your kids had trauma with a small t, my guess would be from this short post that their mother 1) might deny reality and 2) was judgmental and not understanding. I know that is harsh to say, but it's clear you haven't had the misery of learning this yet the hard way, or if you did, you didn't heal properly yourself from it. (See what I did there?)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My neighbor meets your description. She’s not unkind, but just clueless about adversity of others. She was born UMC, worked three years for a friend of her parents, got married and never worked another day. She gets anxious about the tiniest little things because she’s never had a real problem in her life.

Don't you see that it is likely to be her struggles with anxiety that resulted in the limited career path? I know several people for whom a scenario like that has been true, including a family member, and I am very sympathetic to their situations.

You are so quick to make assumptions and judgments about your "clueless" neighbor. Your advice to people who struggle with anxiety to the extent that limits their life choices is that they get "a real problem"?

No. She can't relate to or empathize with anything. When I shared with her my mom's struggle with terminal cancer, her "helpful" response was to tell me I should join her bible study. During the day. When I'm working. Same thing about wanting me to join her tennis group. She has no concept of not being able to do something because of work conflicts or lack of funds. Her parents are at her beck and call. Her idea of a crisis is that both her kids need to be somewhere at the same time and her parents are traveling and can't help her.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My neighbor meets your description. She’s not unkind, but just clueless about adversity of others. She was born UMC, worked three years for a friend of her parents, got married and never worked another day. She gets anxious about the tiniest little things because she’s never had a real problem in her life.

Don't you see that it is likely to be her struggles with anxiety that resulted in the limited career path? I know several people for whom a scenario like that has been true, including a family member, and I am very sympathetic to their situations.

You are so quick to make assumptions and judgments about your "clueless" neighbor. Your advice to people who struggle with anxiety to the extent that limits their life choices is that they get "a real problem"?

Not PP, but privileged people who are clueless about adversity in other people's lives can be really awful if they lack the ability to even try to empathize with others. They can be dismissive, rude, and self-centered. I have encountered people like this and the combination of privilege and inability to empathize can make them cruel, and often in a totally oblivious way where they can't even understand that their behavior is cruel. And since they have a worldview where no one else's feelings or experiences matter, you can't even just say "hey, that hurt my feelings" or "it doesn't feel like you are listening to me." They'll get defensive and dig in harder, and flip it around to where now they are the victim because you were "mean" in telling them how their behavior impacted you negatively.

I can empathize with the person PP describes who might have anxiety and recognize that's hard for her. But the problem with someone like this is that they will never, ever reciprocate that empathy. So you have to be careful with them and practice really strong boundaries. They will view your empathy as confirmation that their problems are, in fact, bigger than everyone else's. People like this quickly become toxic friends and I've learned to keep my distance. Call that judgmental if you want. I call it good judgment.

Anonymous wrote:My neighbor meets your description. She’s not unkind, but just clueless about adversity of others. She was born UMC, worked three years for a friend of her parents, got married and never worked another day. She gets anxious about the tiniest little things because she’s never had a real problem in her life.

Don't you see that it is likely to be her struggles with anxiety that resulted in the limited career path? I know several people for whom a scenario like that has been true, including a family member, and I am very sympathetic to their situations.

You are so quick to make assumptions and judgments about your "clueless" neighbor. Your advice to people who struggle with anxiety to the extent that limits their life choices is that they get "a real problem"?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does this happen? I have encountered several people like this. Very loving families, would themselves describe their parents and families as loving, supportive, and functional and also it looks that way via observation. No childhood trauma or evidence of abuse/neglect. Continued support into adulthood.

But then they are jerks. Or have the capacity to be jerks in certain circumstances where it's surprising to see it come out. I know several women with this background, for instance, who are total "mean girl" gossips -- spread nasty rumors about women they claim they are friends with, can be very selfish with their time, demand attention and can be petty or cruel if they don't feel they get it.

How does this happen? I thought good parenting was supposed to address behaviors like this. Were they too doted on? Favorite daughters whose behavior didn't get corrected? I always figured people who acted like this were acting out of insecurity and some kind of childhood wound, but perhaps I was wrong.

Asking partly out of curiosity, and partly because I want to avoid raising a person who behaves this way in adulthood.

So many assumptions, so little time, OP.

Truth is, you have zero idea what people are going through.

That's... not an answer. If it isn't family dysfunction or poor parenting that causes this behavior, what is it? What are people "going through" that causes people with good parents and happy childhoods to be unkind or even cruel?

Grief
Illness
Divorce
Addiction
Adultery
Financial troubles
Job instability

Or any other adverse condition that happens to adults over their lifetime

The people I'm talking about are not going through divorce, illness, job instability, or financial troubles. And they are protected from the last two because of comfortable backgrounds that helped ensure they started out life with the best possible education and a lot of financial stability.

Why would someone with loving, supportive family and no childhood trauma develop addiction issues? Does that actually happen? Everyone I know with addiction and mental health issues can trace it at least in part to childhood issues.

So that leaves grief and adultery. Which sure, can befall anyone. But shouldn't someone from a loving, supportive, UMC or UC home know of ways to handle those things that don't involve treating other people terribly?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but these responses are still not explaining why someone who has the background we'd all like to give our children (presumably) would behave in ways that are unequivocally unkind.

I am a very pleasant person, one of the friendliest you will meet. Everyone told me forever how great my parents were. They were not great parents and terrible role models. To this day, people think we are super close. We aren’t.

There was no abuse. But they weren’t good parents - though they did try hard. Most anyone who knows us would think I am being ungrateful. I constantly hear what a great family I have. But they weren’t good parents. I got through it but it created a mental grit that few realize about me.

Unless you have some secret knowledge of what living with the parents for 18 years was actually like, you have no idea how parents shape their kids.

I’m curious to know what happened that was not abuse but results in awful parenting but that would be invisible to others?

Also, do you have siblings? Even if their experience was different, they would have SOME idea of what your childhood was like.

Not PP but I have seen parents trying to parent a kid they don’t have. Paying for all the sports and extracurriculars when they have an introverted bookworm. Insisting on academically oriented private school and tutoring and Ivy applications for a kid who would rather focus on art and theatre and their friend group. Trying to talk through every feeling immediately when the kid wants time to think things through and process on their own. None of it’s abusive and it’s great parenting in some cases but it’s not great parenting for that specific kid.

Anonymous wrote:If lack of any hardship can make people unempathetic, what can parents who raising kids do to teach empathy to children who have very nice lives? I grew up with abusive parents and am very empathetic, but I’m seeking to end the cycle of abuse as a parent. What can I do to ensure my kids still have empathy?

I grew up with wonderful parents and I think I am empathetic? I try to be and have been told I am a good listener/good to bring problems to by my friends. Anyway, I think things that can help (although obviously the child’s personality and the type of parent has an impact) are:

- Imagination/diverse stories: read to your kids all kinds of books, watch all kinds of movies, play all kinds of video games, listen to all kinds of people. Expose your child to the diversity of human experience and do it in an affirming way. Which is to say: if you’re reading a book and disagree with the characters’ actions and values, don’t immediately start telling your child that they’re wrong. If you’re instructing your child in your culture’s manners don’t put down other people’s culture. “We talk softly in our family. Please stop yelling.” “Why?” “Because Mummy doesn’t like loud noises and prefers to talk quietly.” (Instead of eg “Because talking loudly is rude.”)

- Talk about the positive aspect of different lives. My parents always talked respectfully and even admiringly about my unmarried and/or childless relatives and their choices, while never seeming to regret their choice to have three kids themselves. A key theme of my childhood I’ve only realized through reading DCUM is that there are many many paths to happiness and it’s okay to take whichever one you think is best for you. And okay to change your mind.

- Act emphatically where your children can see you but don’t make a big deal out of it. I remember asking my parents to host a friend who was going through a tough time at home when I was a tween and I remember asking them on that grounds and never ever really doubting they’d say no because the idea that they would do whatever was in their power to help someone in need was totally obvious to me even though I have no memory of them ever actually telling me that.

But to emphasize the middle point — these are things that worked for my parents with me. I have wonderfully empathetic friends whose parents (who they adore) took a wildly different approach to parenting. And there are life experiences outside of the control of parents that will also shape your children as people.

Anyway, big kudos to you PP for breaking the cycle of abuse. Wishing you all the best and I hope your children grow up happy and loved AND empathetic.

One thing I’ve seen is parents who had a lot of struggle in childhood (ie abusive or absent parents, economic uncertainty) and manage to survive with empathy and success but who then try to give their child everything they lacked and overcompensate by spoiling and removing any struggle from their lives. Especially see this in first gen immigrant families. Then they can’t understand how their kids turned out irresponsible, selfish, and taking things for granted. It’s a bit sad actually.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How does this happen? I have encountered several people like this. Very loving families, would themselves describe their parents and families as loving, supportive, and functional and also it looks that way via observation. No childhood trauma or evidence of abuse/neglect. Continued support into adulthood.

But then they are jerks. Or have the capacity to be jerks in certain circumstances where it's surprising to see it come out. I know several women with this background, for instance, who are total "mean girl" gossips -- spread nasty rumors about women they claim they are friends with, can be very selfish with their time, demand attention and can be petty or cruel if they don't feel they get it.

How does this happen? I thought good parenting was supposed to address behaviors like this. Were they too doted on? Favorite daughters whose behavior didn't get corrected? I always figured people who acted like this were acting out of insecurity and some kind of childhood wound, but perhaps I was wrong.

Asking partly out of curiosity, and partly because I want to avoid raising a person who behaves this way in adulthood.

So many assumptions, so little time, OP.

Truth is, you have zero idea what people are going through.

That's... not an answer. If it isn't family dysfunction or poor parenting that causes this behavior, what is it? What are people "going through" that causes people with good parents and happy childhoods to be unkind or even cruel?

Grief
Illness
Divorce
Addiction
Adultery
Financial troubles
Job instability

Or any other adverse condition that happens to adults over their lifetime

The people I'm talking about are not going through divorce, illness, job instability, or financial troubles. And they are protected from the last two because of comfortable backgrounds that helped ensure they started out life with the best possible education and a lot of financial stability.

Why would someone with loving, supportive family and no childhood trauma develop addiction issues? Does that actually happen? Everyone I know with addiction and mental health issues can trace it at least in part to childhood issues.

So that leaves grief and adultery. Which sure, can befall anyone. But shouldn't someone from a loving, supportive, UMC or UC home know of ways to handle those things that don't involve treating other people terribly?

I'm not trying to be argumentative, but these responses are still not explaining why someone who has the background we'd all like to give our children (presumably) would behave in ways that are unequivocally unkind.

I am a very pleasant person, one of the friendliest you will meet. Everyone told me forever how great my parents were. They were not great parents and terrible role models. To this day, people think we are super close. We aren’t.

There was no abuse. But they weren’t good parents - though they did try hard. Most anyone who knows us would think I am being ungrateful. I constantly hear what a great family I have. But they weren’t good parents. I got through it but it created a mental grit that few realize about me.

Unless you have some secret knowledge of what living with the parents for 18 years was actually like, you have no idea how parents shape their kids.

I’m curious to know what happened that was not abuse but results in awful parenting but that would be invisible to others?

Also, do you have siblings? Even if their experience was different, they would have SOME idea of what your childhood was like.