Anonymous
06/16/2023 13:12
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote: Swimmers that can't do freestyle don't really exist on swim teams.
Oddly enough, our daughter is completed uncoordinated and slow at freestyle, but an A meet swimmer at breaststroke (and much faster at breast than at free). Hard to believe but it does happen.
How old? I've seen this happen with youngsters and beginners but by the time they get some swim experience the freestyle comes around just from exposure in warm-ups, etc.
8&U. She's far from a beginner, but breaststroke is much more natural for her than free. That will change with time, of course.
LOL. You have no idea the mechanics of breaststroke. It is *the most* DQ'd stroke because every kid thinks they can do it. It is VERY technical.
- stroke and turn judge
This is her second year swimming breast at A Meets and she didn't DQ once last year. She's really good at breast. But equally awful at free.
Then you could have put her in swim lessons from Sept to May if you wanted her to learn.
Anonymous
06/16/2023 13:05
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote: Swimmers that can't do freestyle don't really exist on swim teams.
Oddly enough, our daughter is completed uncoordinated and slow at freestyle, but an A meet swimmer at breaststroke (and much faster at breast than at free). Hard to believe but it does happen.
How old? I've seen this happen with youngsters and beginners but by the time they get some swim experience the freestyle comes around just from exposure in warm-ups, etc.
8&U. She's far from a beginner, but breaststroke is much more natural for her than free. That will change with time, of course.
LOL. You have no idea the mechanics of breaststroke. It is *the most* DQ'd stroke because every kid thinks they can do it. It is VERY technical.
- stroke and turn judge
This is her second year swimming breast at A Meets and she didn't DQ once last year. She's really good at breast. But equally awful at free.
Anonymous
06/16/2023 12:44
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote: Swimmers that can't do freestyle don't really exist on swim teams.
Oddly enough, our daughter is completed uncoordinated and slow at freestyle, but an A meet swimmer at breaststroke (and much faster at breast than at free). Hard to believe but it does happen.
How old? I've seen this happen with youngsters and beginners but by the time they get some swim experience the freestyle comes around just from exposure in warm-ups, etc.
8&U. She's far from a beginner, but breaststroke is much more natural for her than free. That will change with time, of course.
LOL. You have no idea the mechanics of breaststroke. It is *the most* DQ'd stroke because every kid thinks they can do it. It is VERY technical.
- stroke and turn judge
Anonymous
06/16/2023 08:06
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
Anonymous wrote:I am new to our neighborhood pool so I am too afraid to ask the swim team rep, but what is the reasoning and thought process as to how and why the (teenage) lane coaches teach the Lane 6 kids freestyle. My kid has been working on freestyle for 2 straight weeks now with the exception of one day last Friday when the lane coach, seemingly randomly, had the kids do backstroke for swim practice. My kid - who absolutely struggles and hates freestyle (water in her face, can't seem to get the hang of breathing, hates having to dive in, etc.) - just loved the backstroke. Did super well the whole practice and even practiced it on her own over the weekend during family pool time.
So, why do the lane coaches not switch up the strokes? Why don't they try out different strokes for different kids? Why has it been 2 solid weeks of the same old freestyle that hasn't really clicked with my kid (and a whole bunch of other kids judging from observation during practice and during Saturday's time trials)?
Isn't backstroke fundamentally easier anyway? ANd isn't the backstroke a natural go-to if freestyle is just too difficult to get the hang of?
Wanted to ask one more thing: Does your swim team play fun water games or fun swimming games? All the kids ever seem to do is laps and kick board? Isn't there a way to make swim practice not so mundane? A bit more fun (at least maybe for the last 15 minutes of practice)?
I don't mean to sound ignorant. We're new to swim. New to the team. I don't know what is considered "normal" for swim team practice. I don't know how this, I admit limited, swim team practice experience compares.
[/quote
If you follow either water safety or basic swim lesson plans it actually is backstroke that should be taught first. It’s easier to float on the back than the stomach. So you teach the buoyancy on the back. Add the kid then the arms. Move to the front. Float kick arms, breathing.
Anonymous
06/15/2023 13:30
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote: Swimmers that can't do freestyle don't really exist on swim teams.
Oddly enough, our daughter is completed uncoordinated and slow at freestyle, but an A meet swimmer at breaststroke (and much faster at breast than at free). Hard to believe but it does happen.
How old? I've seen this happen with youngsters and beginners but by the time they get some swim experience the freestyle comes around just from exposure in warm-ups, etc.
8&U. She's far from a beginner, but breaststroke is much more natural for her than free. That will change with time, of course.
Anonymous
06/15/2023 12:49
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
If you are a new parent, please give it a while before assuming it is wrong or bad. My hunch is there are 100+ kids on your team that the coach needs to build practice around. They are juggling all those competing interests.
Team reps are volunteer positions that are practically full time jobs at this time of year. I can’t quite understand why people do it. Our coaches are paid pennies on the dollar when you add up all the time they spend on practice coaching, lineups, meet data entry, fielding questions etc etc
I would wait to pass judgment until you have observed a little more.
Team reps are volunteer positions that are practically full time jobs at this time of year. I can’t quite understand why people do it. Our coaches are paid pennies on the dollar when you add up all the time they spend on practice coaching, lineups, meet data entry, fielding questions etc etc
I would wait to pass judgment until you have observed a little more.
Anonymous
06/14/2023 14:34
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Seems hard to DQ for backstroke, no? Which is where OP is coming from
No / you can’t be vertical towards breast & a lot of the young kids flip over at the end before touching
Eh, if it's only 25m then no flipping required and if kid just stays on his back until he passes under the flags and feels the wall, then it's fairly "easy" to avoid DQ.
The PP was saying a lot of kids can't actually stay on their back until they get to the wall, even in a 25. All of this stems from delusional parents thinking their kid who can't really even swim yet has **potential** in one stroke. Focusing solely on that stroke early on **might** get them into a A meet, but it would also thwart their overall development. If you want your kids to be swimmers or anything else for that matter, focus on the big picture, long-term development, not the next A-meet.
Eh, I just timed time trials last weekend and about half of our 8&U flipped onto their stomachs and DQd in backstroke. Nearly all of those kids are fully capable of staying on their backs and can do the stroke, they just didn't when under pressure and unsure of what to do with folks cheering. They're still little. Many just forgot or were afraid of hitting their heads. I'm sure that number will drop dramatically as the summer goes along and kids get more practice. The coach had them swim the stroke because they can. Learning how to stay legal from beginning to end of a race is the next step after learning the stroke itself.
Anonymous
06/14/2023 14:25
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Seems hard to DQ for backstroke, no? Which is where OP is coming from
No / you can’t be vertical towards breast & a lot of the young kids flip over at the end before touching
Eh, if it's only 25m then no flipping required and if kid just stays on his back until he passes under the flags and feels the wall, then it's fairly "easy" to avoid DQ.
The PP was saying a lot of kids can't actually stay on their back until they get to the wall, even in a 25. All of this stems from delusional parents thinking their kid who can't really even swim yet has **potential** in one stroke. Focusing solely on that stroke early on **might** get them into a A meet, but it would also thwart their overall development. If you want your kids to be swimmers or anything else for that matter, focus on the big picture, long-term development, not the next A-meet.
Anonymous
06/14/2023 14:22
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Seems hard to DQ for backstroke, no? Which is where OP is coming from
No / you can’t be vertical towards breast & a lot of the young kids flip over at the end before touching
Eh, if it's only 25m then no flipping required and if kid just stays on his back until he passes under the flags and feels the wall, then it's fairly "easy" to avoid DQ.
It seems like it would be and in theory you are right, but in practice, when you watch the 5, 6, 7 and 8 year old new/emerging swimmers, the flip over to there feet at the very end is not uncommon.
Same sort of thing happens with this age/experience group with freestyle - they will make it all the way across but at the last instant, put their feet down and stand up before touching the wall.
Anonymous
06/14/2023 14:18
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'll add that the coaches decide who swims in races. It's not up to parents.Anonymous wrote:Our swim team doesn't have a pre-team.Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Breaststroke is easier for uncoordinated kids who can't handle the asymmetry of crawl and don't feel extremely dominant on one side of their body.
No, breaststroke done legally isn't easier for the vast majority of kids. I've been a stroke and turn judge and referee for more than a decade for our team in the middle of the range of NVSL divisions and it is rare to have a meet without a DQ of 8 and under breaststroke.
What looks like breaststroke to non-swimmer parents is relatively easy, but learning not to put your hands past your hipline except on the pull out, and turning your feet outward during the propulsive part of the kick is really hard for the majority of kids.
Sure, freestyle won't DQ, but half-drowning for over minute on a 25m freestyle crawl isn't really better.
And illegal breaststroke is legal freestyle, so the kid can race freestyle while learning breaststroke.
This doesn’t really make a lot of sense. If you are half drowning doing a 25m race you actually should be on the pre-team and not competing at meets. Every year I am amazed by the parents that put their kids on the team and insist that they participate in meets despite looking like they might drown. You also don’t want to encourage a kid to do an illegal breaststroke just so they can complete a 25 freestyle race. Do a year of pre-team and join the team next year after drowning is no longer a concern.
Lol if you think the summer swim coach is going to get into it with a parent who has signed their kid up for swim team knowing their kid can’t swim well enough to actually compete. You know what the response is going to be if the coach says we can’t put Larlo in a meet yet, the oblivious parent says just put him in the freestyle event.
You think a parent is going to fight a coach to get their barely swimming kid into a race? To what end? It's not like the kid is going to do well.
More likely scenario: the parent wanted the kid to improve their swimming. The kid passes the swim team evaluation. The parent signs the kid up for the team so they can go to daily practices. From there, the coach decides if my kid swims in races. As a parent with a job, my nanny takes the kids to practice so I have no idea if the kid is legal or ready to compete in a stroke.
You are very fortunate to have apparently not met some of the swim parents in this area. I have seen parents over the years do exactly this.
If it's a B meet, who cares... let them swim all they want and get DQ'd.... that's not going to help with the child confidence and development but it the parents insist, then be my guest, set your child up for failure.
A meets are a different matter entirely and no parent is going to be able to talk/bully their child into an A slot if they don't belong there(ie are at least LEGAL(!))
Obviously this isn’t an A meet issue. But honestly part of why B meets are so long and tedious are kids who have no business competing in a meet being thrown in. There also is a safety component to this, at least once a year I have seen a kid have to actually be fished out of the water by a junior coach or lifeguard, which benefits absolutely no one.
This is a nothingburger - B meets are long, there's just no getting around that. That's the blessing and curse, everyone gets to swim, that's core to a B meet. Keeping one or two or a few kids out isn't going to speed the meet up in any meaningful way. And, in terms of safety, there isn't any more safe time for new swimmer to be swimming than at a swim meet!
I'm not advocating that coaches put kids in who shouldn't be, that's obviously a bad prqctice - but PP was taking about parent insisting - in these rare examples, I say it's not a "hill to die on", explain to the parent why it isn't a good idea but if they still insist, let the kid swim and get DQ'd/be overwhelmed/etc. In reality, there just aren't enough of these scenarios to make that much of a difference in the big picture.
Anonymous
06/14/2023 14:14
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Seems hard to DQ for backstroke, no? Which is where OP is coming from
No / you can’t be vertical towards breast & a lot of the young kids flip over at the end before touching
Eh, if it's only 25m then no flipping required and if kid just stays on his back until he passes under the flags and feels the wall, then it's fairly "easy" to avoid DQ.
Anonymous
06/14/2023 13:01
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'll add that the coaches decide who swims in races. It's not up to parents.Anonymous wrote:Our swim team doesn't have a pre-team.Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Breaststroke is easier for uncoordinated kids who can't handle the asymmetry of crawl and don't feel extremely dominant on one side of their body.
No, breaststroke done legally isn't easier for the vast majority of kids. I've been a stroke and turn judge and referee for more than a decade for our team in the middle of the range of NVSL divisions and it is rare to have a meet without a DQ of 8 and under breaststroke.
What looks like breaststroke to non-swimmer parents is relatively easy, but learning not to put your hands past your hipline except on the pull out, and turning your feet outward during the propulsive part of the kick is really hard for the majority of kids.
Sure, freestyle won't DQ, but half-drowning for over minute on a 25m freestyle crawl isn't really better.
And illegal breaststroke is legal freestyle, so the kid can race freestyle while learning breaststroke.
This doesn’t really make a lot of sense. If you are half drowning doing a 25m race you actually should be on the pre-team and not competing at meets. Every year I am amazed by the parents that put their kids on the team and insist that they participate in meets despite looking like they might drown. You also don’t want to encourage a kid to do an illegal breaststroke just so they can complete a 25 freestyle race. Do a year of pre-team and join the team next year after drowning is no longer a concern.
Lol if you think the summer swim coach is going to get into it with a parent who has signed their kid up for swim team knowing their kid can’t swim well enough to actually compete. You know what the response is going to be if the coach says we can’t put Larlo in a meet yet, the oblivious parent says just put him in the freestyle event.
You think a parent is going to fight a coach to get their barely swimming kid into a race? To what end? It's not like the kid is going to do well.
More likely scenario: the parent wanted the kid to improve their swimming. The kid passes the swim team evaluation. The parent signs the kid up for the team so they can go to daily practices. From there, the coach decides if my kid swims in races. As a parent with a job, my nanny takes the kids to practice so I have no idea if the kid is legal or ready to compete in a stroke.
You are very fortunate to have apparently not met some of the swim parents in this area. I have seen parents over the years do exactly this.
If it's a B meet, who cares... let them swim all they want and get DQ'd.... that's not going to help with the child confidence and development but it the parents insist, then be my guest, set your child up for failure.
A meets are a different matter entirely and no parent is going to be able to talk/bully their child into an A slot if they don't belong there(ie are at least LEGAL(!))
Obviously this isn’t an A meet issue. But honestly part of why B meets are so long and tedious are kids who have no business competing in a meet being thrown in. There also is a safety component to this, at least once a year I have seen a kid have to actually be fished out of the water by a junior coach or lifeguard, which benefits absolutely no one.
Anonymous
06/14/2023 12:38
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'll add that the coaches decide who swims in races. It's not up to parents.Anonymous wrote:Our swim team doesn't have a pre-team.Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Breaststroke is easier for uncoordinated kids who can't handle the asymmetry of crawl and don't feel extremely dominant on one side of their body.
No, breaststroke done legally isn't easier for the vast majority of kids. I've been a stroke and turn judge and referee for more than a decade for our team in the middle of the range of NVSL divisions and it is rare to have a meet without a DQ of 8 and under breaststroke.
What looks like breaststroke to non-swimmer parents is relatively easy, but learning not to put your hands past your hipline except on the pull out, and turning your feet outward during the propulsive part of the kick is really hard for the majority of kids.
Sure, freestyle won't DQ, but half-drowning for over minute on a 25m freestyle crawl isn't really better.
And illegal breaststroke is legal freestyle, so the kid can race freestyle while learning breaststroke.
This doesn’t really make a lot of sense. If you are half drowning doing a 25m race you actually should be on the pre-team and not competing at meets. Every year I am amazed by the parents that put their kids on the team and insist that they participate in meets despite looking like they might drown. You also don’t want to encourage a kid to do an illegal breaststroke just so they can complete a 25 freestyle race. Do a year of pre-team and join the team next year after drowning is no longer a concern.
Lol if you think the summer swim coach is going to get into it with a parent who has signed their kid up for swim team knowing their kid can’t swim well enough to actually compete. You know what the response is going to be if the coach says we can’t put Larlo in a meet yet, the oblivious parent says just put him in the freestyle event.
You think a parent is going to fight a coach to get their barely swimming kid into a race? To what end? It's not like the kid is going to do well.
More likely scenario: the parent wanted the kid to improve their swimming. The kid passes the swim team evaluation. The parent signs the kid up for the team so they can go to daily practices. From there, the coach decides if my kid swims in races. As a parent with a job, my nanny takes the kids to practice so I have no idea if the kid is legal or ready to compete in a stroke.
You are very fortunate to have apparently not met some of the swim parents in this area. I have seen parents over the years do exactly this.
If it's a B meet, who cares... let them swim all they want and get DQ'd.... that's not going to help with the child confidence and development but it the parents insist, then be my guest, set your child up for failure.
A meets are a different matter entirely and no parent is going to be able to talk/bully their child into an A slot if they don't belong there(ie are at least LEGAL(!))
Anonymous
06/14/2023 12:25
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'll add that the coaches decide who swims in races. It's not up to parents.Anonymous wrote:Our swim team doesn't have a pre-team.Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Breaststroke is easier for uncoordinated kids who can't handle the asymmetry of crawl and don't feel extremely dominant on one side of their body.
No, breaststroke done legally isn't easier for the vast majority of kids. I've been a stroke and turn judge and referee for more than a decade for our team in the middle of the range of NVSL divisions and it is rare to have a meet without a DQ of 8 and under breaststroke.
What looks like breaststroke to non-swimmer parents is relatively easy, but learning not to put your hands past your hipline except on the pull out, and turning your feet outward during the propulsive part of the kick is really hard for the majority of kids.
Sure, freestyle won't DQ, but half-drowning for over minute on a 25m freestyle crawl isn't really better.
And illegal breaststroke is legal freestyle, so the kid can race freestyle while learning breaststroke.
This doesn’t really make a lot of sense. If you are half drowning doing a 25m race you actually should be on the pre-team and not competing at meets. Every year I am amazed by the parents that put their kids on the team and insist that they participate in meets despite looking like they might drown. You also don’t want to encourage a kid to do an illegal breaststroke just so they can complete a 25 freestyle race. Do a year of pre-team and join the team next year after drowning is no longer a concern.
Lol if you think the summer swim coach is going to get into it with a parent who has signed their kid up for swim team knowing their kid can’t swim well enough to actually compete. You know what the response is going to be if the coach says we can’t put Larlo in a meet yet, the oblivious parent says just put him in the freestyle event.
You think a parent is going to fight a coach to get their barely swimming kid into a race? To what end? It's not like the kid is going to do well.
More likely scenario: the parent wanted the kid to improve their swimming. The kid passes the swim team evaluation. The parent signs the kid up for the team so they can go to daily practices. From there, the coach decides if my kid swims in races. As a parent with a job, my nanny takes the kids to practice so I have no idea if the kid is legal or ready to compete in a stroke.
You are very fortunate to have apparently not met some of the swim parents in this area. I have seen parents over the years do exactly this.
Anonymous
06/14/2023 12:22
Subject: Why do lane coaches teach freestyle first?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I'll add that the coaches decide who swims in races. It's not up to parents.Anonymous wrote:Our swim team doesn't have a pre-team.Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Breaststroke is easier for uncoordinated kids who can't handle the asymmetry of crawl and don't feel extremely dominant on one side of their body.
No, breaststroke done legally isn't easier for the vast majority of kids. I've been a stroke and turn judge and referee for more than a decade for our team in the middle of the range of NVSL divisions and it is rare to have a meet without a DQ of 8 and under breaststroke.
What looks like breaststroke to non-swimmer parents is relatively easy, but learning not to put your hands past your hipline except on the pull out, and turning your feet outward during the propulsive part of the kick is really hard for the majority of kids.
Sure, freestyle won't DQ, but half-drowning for over minute on a 25m freestyle crawl isn't really better.
And illegal breaststroke is legal freestyle, so the kid can race freestyle while learning breaststroke.
This doesn’t really make a lot of sense. If you are half drowning doing a 25m race you actually should be on the pre-team and not competing at meets. Every year I am amazed by the parents that put their kids on the team and insist that they participate in meets despite looking like they might drown. You also don’t want to encourage a kid to do an illegal breaststroke just so they can complete a 25 freestyle race. Do a year of pre-team and join the team next year after drowning is no longer a concern.
Lol if you think the summer swim coach is going to get into it with a parent who has signed their kid up for swim team knowing their kid can’t swim well enough to actually compete. You know what the response is going to be if the coach says we can’t put Larlo in a meet yet, the oblivious parent says just put him in the freestyle event.
You think a parent is going to fight a coach to get their barely swimming kid into a race? To what end? It's not like the kid is going to do well.
More likely scenario: the parent wanted the kid to improve their swimming. The kid passes the swim team evaluation. The parent signs the kid up for the team so they can go to daily practices. From there, the coach decides if my kid swims in races. As a parent with a job, my nanny takes the kids to practice so I have no idea if the kid is legal or ready to compete in a stroke.