Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who come from biglaw have this issue a lot. Your definition of “billable” is different than theirs.

Really? I've worked for two biglaw firms and never heard of an issue like OP's. Our hours-based bonuses were always based on the amount the associate billed (excluding firm hours and with special rules for pro bono (one firm capped the number that counted)), not the amount that actually ended up on the invoice.

Read again. People who COME FROM biglaw run into this a lot because, as you say, it’s not how billable hours are counted in biglaw, but the biglaw way is not how it’s counted outside of biglaw necessarily.

I kept in touch with lots of friends from law school and this hit me right away. People at non biglaw firms complained constantly about having their hours cut, while in biglaw we never worried about it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bonuses are always based on hours the firm can bill, not on what an attorney puts on a timesheet. And sometimes bonuses are based on the hours a firm is paid. If a client disputes your hours and the firm agrees to cut them, that can reduce your bonus as well.

This really is the norm. I have never heard of anything different with firms that pay based on billable hours. The name says it all - billable, not hours worked or recorded on the timesheet.

Of course we're not talking about a timesheet. I got paid $0 for training, hiring paperwork, etc. I am only getting paid for actually billable hours.

E.g., my "timesheet" (if I used one) may say 8 AM-8 PM (12 hours) but my billable hours that day may only be 7 for whatever reasons.

You still don’t get it. Training and sign on paperwork wouldn’t go on a time sheet. Billable means only what can be billed to a client that the client will pay for. Your dispute is that you think your hours can be billed and your firm does not. You’re probably right that you need to leave. You aren’t going to last in an environment where you believe you, the attorney who is new to the business, knows more than the partners who have built the business and know the clients. It’s a bad fit.

Yes, of course it would go on a timesheet! I'm a patent litigator and I know enough employment law to know that you have to pay an hourly employee for that work.

I definitely don't know more than the partners about the clients BUT I definitely know more than the partners about the associates, and this is exactly why they cannot retain anyone. I will tell the firm thay I will stay through the summer if they want because my boss has a two-month vacation planned to the Amazon and won't have any cell phone service and I don't want to leave the clients stranded. But after my boss returns, I will need to move on and will start looking for a new job today.

I honestly do not see why anyone would think an experienced BigLaw attorney with options would work in that environment of not getting paid (the risk) while not getting any of the benefits of the profit. It is a terrible business model and associates will continue to leave. Maybe you can recruit then for one month but once they see the structure, they are gone.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bonuses are always based on hours the firm can bill, not on what an attorney puts on a timesheet. And sometimes bonuses are based on the hours a firm is paid. If a client disputes your hours and the firm agrees to cut them, that can reduce your bonus as well.

This really is the norm. I have never heard of anything different with firms that pay based on billable hours. The name says it all - billable, not hours worked or recorded on the timesheet.

Of course we're not talking about a timesheet. I got paid $0 for training, hiring paperwork, etc. I am only getting paid for actually billable hours.

E.g., my "timesheet" (if I used one) may say 8 AM-8 PM (12 hours) but my billable hours that day may only be 7 for whatever reasons.

You still don’t get it. Training and sign on paperwork wouldn’t go on a time sheet. Billable means only what can be billed to a client that the client will pay for. Your dispute is that you think your hours can be billed and your firm does not. You’re probably right that you need to leave. You aren’t going to last in an environment where you believe you, the attorney who is new to the business, knows more than the partners who have built the business and know the clients. It’s a bad fit.

Yes, of course it would go on a timesheet! I'm a patent litigator and I know enough employment law to know that you have to pay an hourly employee for that work.

I definitely don't know more than the partners about the clients BUT I definitely know more than the partners about the associates, and this is exactly why they cannot retain anyone. I will tell the firm thay I will stay through the summer if they want because my boss has a two-month vacation planned to the Amazon and won't have any cell phone service and I don't want to leave the clients stranded. But after my boss returns, I will need to move on and will start looking for a new job today.

I honestly do not see why anyone would think an experienced BigLaw attorney with options would work in that environment of not getting paid (the risk) while not getting any of the benefits of the profit. It is a terrible business model and associates will continue to leave. Maybe you can recruit then for one month but once they see the structure, they are gone.

I wouldn't stay through the summer, especially if you had other leads from your recent job search, unless they let you handle the bills during that time. If boss wants to vacation he needs to retain people.

This. He sounds like an a-hole with the unclear explanations and bait-and-switch. Let him figure it out, don’t do him any favors unless you need a reference.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bonuses are always based on hours the firm can bill, not on what an attorney puts on a timesheet. And sometimes bonuses are based on the hours a firm is paid. If a client disputes your hours and the firm agrees to cut them, that can reduce your bonus as well.

This really is the norm. I have never heard of anything different with firms that pay based on billable hours. The name says it all - billable, not hours worked or recorded on the timesheet.

Of course we're not talking about a timesheet. I got paid $0 for training, hiring paperwork, etc. I am only getting paid for actually billable hours.

E.g., my "timesheet" (if I used one) may say 8 AM-8 PM (12 hours) but my billable hours that day may only be 7 for whatever reasons.

You still don’t get it. Training and sign on paperwork wouldn’t go on a time sheet. Billable means only what can be billed to a client that the client will pay for. Your dispute is that you think your hours can be billed and your firm does not. You’re probably right that you need to leave. You aren’t going to last in an environment where you believe you, the attorney who is new to the business, knows more than the partners who have built the business and know the clients. It’s a bad fit.

Yes, of course it would go on a timesheet! I'm a patent litigator and I know enough employment law to know that you have to pay an hourly employee for that work.

I definitely don't know more than the partners about the clients BUT I definitely know more than the partners about the associates, and this is exactly why they cannot retain anyone. I will tell the firm thay I will stay through the summer if they want because my boss has a two-month vacation planned to the Amazon and won't have any cell phone service and I don't want to leave the clients stranded. But after my boss returns, I will need to move on and will start looking for a new job today.

I honestly do not see why anyone would think an experienced BigLaw attorney with options would work in that environment of not getting paid (the risk) while not getting any of the benefits of the profit. It is a terrible business model and associates will continue to leave. Maybe you can recruit then for one month but once they see the structure, they are gone.

I wouldn't stay through the summer, especially if you had other leads from your recent job search, unless they let you handle the bills during that time. If boss wants to vacation he needs to retain people.

The relationship partner shouldn't be handing off responsibility for managing a client's bills. That's a very weird demand.

Meh, I handled the bills as an associate, its not uncommon. But I guess since the clients may be used to huge write downs, it could be untenable here. My point was that it's the only circumstance under which OP should stay the summer to help them out. Otherwise, get out ASAP.

OP is an experienced patent litigator whose employer wants them to either work big law hours for 240k (it seems like getting deep into the 300/hr tier isn't happening) or 120k with a more reasonable schedule. OP needs to bail asap

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bonuses are always based on hours the firm can bill, not on what an attorney puts on a timesheet. And sometimes bonuses are based on the hours a firm is paid. If a client disputes your hours and the firm agrees to cut them, that can reduce your bonus as well.

This really is the norm. I have never heard of anything different with firms that pay based on billable hours. The name says it all - billable, not hours worked or recorded on the timesheet.

Of course we're not talking about a timesheet. I got paid $0 for training, hiring paperwork, etc. I am only getting paid for actually billable hours.

E.g., my "timesheet" (if I used one) may say 8 AM-8 PM (12 hours) but my billable hours that day may only be 7 for whatever reasons.

You still don’t get it. Training and sign on paperwork wouldn’t go on a time sheet. Billable means only what can be billed to a client that the client will pay for. Your dispute is that you think your hours can be billed and your firm does not. You’re probably right that you need to leave. You aren’t going to last in an environment where you believe you, the attorney who is new to the business, knows more than the partners who have built the business and know the clients. It’s a bad fit.

Yes, of course it would go on a timesheet! I'm a patent litigator and I know enough employment law to know that you have to pay an hourly employee for that work.

I definitely don't know more than the partners about the clients BUT I definitely know more than the partners about the associates, and this is exactly why they cannot retain anyone. I will tell the firm thay I will stay through the summer if they want because my boss has a two-month vacation planned to the Amazon and won't have any cell phone service and I don't want to leave the clients stranded. But after my boss returns, I will need to move on and will start looking for a new job today.

I honestly do not see why anyone would think an experienced BigLaw attorney with options would work in that environment of not getting paid (the risk) while not getting any of the benefits of the profit. It is a terrible business model and associates will continue to leave. Maybe you can recruit then for one month but once they see the structure, they are gone.

I wouldn't stay through the summer, especially if you had other leads from your recent job search, unless they let you handle the bills during that time. If boss wants to vacation he needs to retain people.

The relationship partner shouldn't be handing off responsibility for managing a client's bills. That's a very weird demand.

Meh, I handled the bills as an associate, its not uncommon. But I guess since the clients may be used to huge write downs, it could be untenable here. My point was that it's the only circumstance under which OP should stay the summer to help them out. Otherwise, get out ASAP.

Anonymous wrote:I think if the firm is billing that time but not giving you credit for it, then you have a point. If it's not being billed (or a client is not refusing to pay for it) then you have less to gripe about.

Ask for a "budget" for how much time you can bill on a project and stick to it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bonuses are always based on hours the firm can bill, not on what an attorney puts on a timesheet. And sometimes bonuses are based on the hours a firm is paid. If a client disputes your hours and the firm agrees to cut them, that can reduce your bonus as well.

This really is the norm. I have never heard of anything different with firms that pay based on billable hours. The name says it all - billable, not hours worked or recorded on the timesheet.

Of course we're not talking about a timesheet. I got paid $0 for training, hiring paperwork, etc. I am only getting paid for actually billable hours.

E.g., my "timesheet" (if I used one) may say 8 AM-8 PM (12 hours) but my billable hours that day may only be 7 for whatever reasons.

You still don’t get it. Training and sign on paperwork wouldn’t go on a time sheet. Billable means only what can be billed to a client that the client will pay for. Your dispute is that you think your hours can be billed and your firm does not. You’re probably right that you need to leave. You aren’t going to last in an environment where you believe you, the attorney who is new to the business, knows more than the partners who have built the business and know the clients. It’s a bad fit.

Yes, of course it would go on a timesheet! I'm a patent litigator and I know enough employment law to know that you have to pay an hourly employee for that work.

I definitely don't know more than the partners about the clients BUT I definitely know more than the partners about the associates, and this is exactly why they cannot retain anyone. I will tell the firm thay I will stay through the summer if they want because my boss has a two-month vacation planned to the Amazon and won't have any cell phone service and I don't want to leave the clients stranded. But after my boss returns, I will need to move on and will start looking for a new job today.

I honestly do not see why anyone would think an experienced BigLaw attorney with options would work in that environment of not getting paid (the risk) while not getting any of the benefits of the profit. It is a terrible business model and associates will continue to leave. Maybe you can recruit then for one month but once they see the structure, they are gone.

I wouldn't stay through the summer, especially if you had other leads from your recent job search, unless they let you handle the bills during that time. If boss wants to vacation he needs to retain people.

The relationship partner shouldn't be handing off responsibility for managing a client's bills. That's a very weird demand.

Anonymous wrote:I started working for a new firm.

They have an unusual pay structure.

The pay is $10k per month. Then an additional $10k if you make your 150 hours in the month. Then an additional $300/hour for every hour above 150 hours.

The hours are "billable hours" which the firm defines as hours that can be billed.

After my first month, my boss cut 20 hours and told me that they "can't" be billed. I'm a very senior level attorney and only went to this firm for the salary.

As a result, I lost $6000.

If I hadn't worked so many hours overtime, I would have lost my $10k "bonus".

My boss says that it's a "bonus," not salary, and cannot be expected so it's not illegal not to pay it.

I am a patent litigator so I'm not an employment law expert but I consulted with an employment law expert and they agreed with my boss. They said that it's under "contract law" and since the definition of "billable hours" is disputed, my boss could be right and a lawsuit could just be a waste of time and money.

Obviously I'm now looking for a new job *****after only a month and please don't tell me how bad this looks****** but I don't even know my rights.

Meanwhile can someone just tell me how common this is??? I've never heard of "billable hours" being hours the FIRM bills.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Bonuses are always based on hours the firm can bill, not on what an attorney puts on a timesheet. And sometimes bonuses are based on the hours a firm is paid. If a client disputes your hours and the firm agrees to cut them, that can reduce your bonus as well.

This really is the norm. I have never heard of anything different with firms that pay based on billable hours. The name says it all - billable, not hours worked or recorded on the timesheet.

Of course we're not talking about a timesheet. I got paid $0 for training, hiring paperwork, etc. I am only getting paid for actually billable hours.

E.g., my "timesheet" (if I used one) may say 8 AM-8 PM (12 hours) but my billable hours that day may only be 7 for whatever reasons.

You still don’t get it. Training and sign on paperwork wouldn’t go on a time sheet. Billable means only what can be billed to a client that the client will pay for. Your dispute is that you think your hours can be billed and your firm does not. You’re probably right that you need to leave. You aren’t going to last in an environment where you believe you, the attorney who is new to the business, knows more than the partners who have built the business and know the clients. It’s a bad fit.

Yes, of course it would go on a timesheet! I'm a patent litigator and I know enough employment law to know that you have to pay an hourly employee for that work.

I definitely don't know more than the partners about the clients BUT I definitely know more than the partners about the associates, and this is exactly why they cannot retain anyone. I will tell the firm thay I will stay through the summer if they want because my boss has a two-month vacation planned to the Amazon and won't have any cell phone service and I don't want to leave the clients stranded. But after my boss returns, I will need to move on and will start looking for a new job today.

I honestly do not see why anyone would think an experienced BigLaw attorney with options would work in that environment of not getting paid (the risk) while not getting any of the benefits of the profit. It is a terrible business model and associates will continue to leave. Maybe you can recruit then for one month but once they see the structure, they are gone.

I wouldn't stay through the summer, especially if you had other leads from your recent job search, unless they let you handle the bills during that time. If boss wants to vacation he needs to retain people.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:People who come from biglaw have this issue a lot. Your definition of “billable” is different than theirs.

Really? I've worked for two biglaw firms and never heard of an issue like OP's. Our hours-based bonuses were always based on the amount the associate billed (excluding firm hours and with special rules for pro bono (one firm capped the number that counted)), not the amount that actually ended up on the invoice.