Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:etc are worthless. I think we should teach kids to aspire to get as much formal education as possible.

I dislike the fact that pursuing as much formal education as possible saddles kids with tens - if not hundreds - of thousands of dollars worth of debt.

The fact that universities and lenders have conspired to mortgage the futures of others has no bearing on the inestimable value of education, even for people who make their living in skilled trades or other pursuits not typically thought of as “requiring” a degree. The problem isn’t pursuing education, it’s the anticompetitive and exploitative policies of the “education” establishment, including the government. Prior to the advent of the student loan industry (which initially opened doors to enormous social and economic advancement for students) it was possible for a self-supporting student to work their way at least in large part at least through a state university without loans. There is no reason that should not still be the case. One place to start a reform would be with truth in pricing, instead of the present “black box” where the list prices typically have nothing to do with actual cost of attendance and “aid” in many cases is nothing but a discount from a deceptively quoted number.

Hopefully then you like fixing your own plumbing, hvac, and building and repairing your own house. We all depend on different specialties op. They have some different learning paths.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:etc are worthless. I think we should teach kids to aspire to get as much formal education as possible.

It is not “worthless” but it may not be worth the cost of tuition. Parents should help their children do the math. Your child wants to be an elementary school teacher with a starting salary of [$60k]. Probably shouldn’t take on more debt than one times annual salary, so no more than about [$60k]. That eliminates a lot of high priced schools.

This is an interesting post. I do think for undergrad education the student cannot really take much in loans. That may limit where they can go but there is no real alternative.

I agree with that PPs have been saying that kids should not be forced to college. But in the same way -- not all kids are ready for non-college. Not all kids are going to make it at all with a vocational education. While you should not force anyone to do anything -- the default should probably be college as a smart buyer (low loans) unless the kid can articulate and demonstrate what they intend to to. Tough when the kid is 14 but that is where it is.

Whether financed by loans or parent(s) (who may be financing with loans), the point still holds. Don’t pay $300k for a job that pays $50k, unless you think the salary will increase exponentially, rather than by cost-of-living. The whole family needs to allocate resources wisely and parents need to guide and teach their children.

If you pay for grad school, you doing it wrong other than the MD/JD.

Employer or grant should fund grad degree.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there does need to be a reinvestment in manual jobs, but we have to make it so that these jobs compensate enough to build a life and support a family. There need to be multiple viable paths to success in this country if we hope to be successful as a society.

I don't think pay is the issue - electricians and plumbers rake in the $.

Until the pricey injuries start adding up in their 30s and 40s.

I dislike that the American system doesn’t work great for so many people who are hands on learners. I would love to see something like the German apprenticeship system that combines theoretical learning with work. There isn’t much in the US between a college degree and on the job training.

I have PhD (which was paid for by working as a TA). I make 90k/ year mid-career. Many people with less education are making far more money. I think my education is valuable but it doesn’t pay in monetary value, so I can see why people are skeptical of college.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am a fan of Mike Rowe and come from a blue collar/farm background, but am also a professor. I don't understand the zero sum game this becomes. We should push a bunch of kids with aptitudes to pursue college/grad school and we should also push a bunch of kids (and celebrate them doing so) into skilled trades.

Mike Rowe is a phony exploitative scammer. He's a weapon for billionaires to exploit the working class.

Can you explain this a bit more? I have always found something “off” about his schtick but have been unable to articulate why.

Anonymous wrote:I think there does need to be a reinvestment in manual jobs, but we have to make it so that these jobs compensate enough to build a life and support a family. There need to be multiple viable paths to success in this country if we hope to be successful as a society.

I don't think pay is the issue - electricians and plumbers rake in the $.

Anonymous wrote:I don't know one person who is anti education.

Then you’re living in a bubble.

They’re not worthless. They are extremely valuable. But what I think people might be pushing back is the cost of college and grad school.

Anonymous wrote:etc are worthless. I think we should teach kids to aspire to get as much formal education as possible.

You gotta let crazies be crazies. Just focusing on educating your own kids.

Anonymous wrote:I am a fan of Mike Rowe and come from a blue collar/farm background, but am also a professor. I don't understand the zero sum game this becomes. We should push a bunch of kids with aptitudes to pursue college/grad school and we should also push a bunch of kids (and celebrate them doing so) into skilled trades.

Mike Rowe is a phony exploitative scammer. He's a weapon for billionaires to exploit the working class.

Anonymous wrote:etc are worthless. I think we should teach kids to aspire to get as much formal education as possible.

Then pay taxes to give people as much formal education as possible.

These are two incorrect extremes.

Of course college and grad school are not "worthless." But they might not be worth much to a specific individual, depending on their goals, interest, resources, etc. If someone actually wants to be a physician, well there's no more valuable investment in that then med school. But for someone who has zero interest in that but whose parents really want to be able to say "my kid is a doctor," then med school is a colossal waste of time and money.

Instead of encouraging people to get as much formal education as possible, we should encourage people to get as much formal education as they want and as makes sense for their particular goals. I am a super academic person who loved college and grad school and would happily go get a PhD tomorrow, on top of my professional degree, simply because it would afford me the opportunity to think and study deeply about an area of interest. My DH, an engineer, has zero interest in going back to school and loves his work and likely learns far more about what he needs to advance his career and skill levels while working than he would in a graduate program. Both are perfectly good approaches for two very different people with different goals and interests.