Anonymous wrote:What's with this "help brain development" BS? And OP, are you really serious with this question?

You all might want to take a look at the minimum pay charts for directors, writers, producers, etc.. on the websites of their unions. And then look at the chart of residual payments. Then ask yourself if you ever will make that kind of money doing what you are doing.

Then take a look at the list of credits on a movie, or the masthead of a magazine.

THEN, I invite you to take a look at LinkedIn and search "Head of Content" or Chief Content Officer and see what pops up. What do you think those people studied? Accounting?
Who do you think is writing, designing and creating all these ads you see on social media and TV? Do you even know that the average person on TIKTOK doing stupid dance videos is making 10K a month on sponsorships?

What century are people living in?

If you can get into one of the Hollywood unions, you can really do well (most of those people in the credits)!

Are any of you interested in transitioning into a career in influencing? I don't really know where to start but I have exquisite taste and feel like I should share more of my opinions with the world. Do Georgetown or Hopkins have a program I could do?

Anonymous wrote:When the world was shut down during a pandemic, we needed the scientists and doctors to help cure us. But we also needed the artists and writers. How much Netflix did you stream? How many books did you read? How did you find and share joy and meaning in your life?

It's not enough to simply be alive and earn money. You need purpose, connections, community. These come from the the study and expression of language and art.

+1

It's not all about earning money or learning to earn money. It's about learning to enjoy the world.

Anonymous wrote:Consider their involvement in sports/dance/orchestra a different social group than their freshman dorm. Being with like minded people is always a plus.

+1 My DD was choosing between similar tier LACs with strong environmental science programs, her top priority. But when it came down to the final choice, the band program and particularly the ability to participate in a pep band, was the tie breaker. She's loved band in HS and participating in an arts group is a great way to quickly establish a social group (choir was that for me in college). She's already received a welcome note from the band program signed by a bunch of kids in the symphony, reflecting the typical band kid sense of humor. That made her really happy.

Band would not have been a reason to choose a school with a weaker program in her major but it did screen out some schools that might otherwise have been on the list. I don't have an issue with that

The best colleges often have the best arts and theater programs, so for the most part kids will be fine!

What's with this "help brain development" BS? And OP, are you really serious with this question?

You all might want to take a look at the minimum pay charts for directors, writers, producers, etc.. on the websites of their unions. And then look at the chart of residual payments. Then ask yourself if you ever will make that kind of money doing what you are doing.

Then take a look at the list of credits on a movie, or the masthead of a magazine.

THEN, I invite you to take a look at LinkedIn and search "Head of Content" or Chief Content Officer and see what pops up. What do you think those people studied? Accounting?
Who do you think is writing, designing and creating all these ads you see on social media and TV? Do you even know that the average person on TIKTOK doing stupid dance videos is making 10K a month on sponsorships?

What century are people living in?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP: it’s not that I’m advocating vocational training. I get the value of learning how to read, write, think critically, problem solve. And I see the fringe benefit of art stuff as a fun and healthy activity. But where the arts oriented people lose me is when they choose one school over another based on the arts programming as opposed to variables that may have a more significant long term impact. Like choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes. It just seems that these things are nice to have but for $320k maybe they don’t matter that much and you should be focused on other factors?

You know, I wanted to believe that you asked the original question out of real curiosity and desire to learn about other people. People replied and explained, and your response is to double down and explain why you’re right and they’re wrong.

Seriously, no one is trying to convince you to value the arts as part of a college experience. No one cares whether you value it. Why do you care that others value it? Are you just desperate for something to judge other people about? Good lord.

The tell is the idea that people are "choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes."

OP: I’m obviously demonstrating a bit of proletarian disdain for the arts here, but I guess from a practical point of view, when I read things like my DS really wants a strong theatre program or something like that, I’m just thinking to myself - come on- high school is over, a man has to focus on making a living now. I totally appreciate that people have hobbies and interests but, I don’t know, you gotta focus on getting from A to B. That’s just my mindset. Thinking about the quality of art offerings feels frivolous but look, it’s not my wheelhouse. And btw I collect art and appreciate art. I guess I am just focused more on my kids being well positioned to get ultimately good jobs out of this whole college thing and be on a strong career trajectory. I’ve seen people get distracted by their passions and then have nothing to show for it [b]

I've seen a lot more people feeling empty in "good jobs" but with no outside passions. Or retirees who don't know what to do with themselves because they only work and have no passion or even mild interests. Developing meaningful hobbies and communities around those hobbies are important to life and college is a key place to do it because life gets busier and more fragmented afterwards. I don't think you do it at the expense of building a career (in arts or otherwise), but if you have something that gives you joy that's really one of life's most precious gifts and it deserves cultivating and investing in. A meaningful interest does get sustained unless you invest in it. If there isn't a community for your interest at your school it will be hard to sustain. I have a kid who did his art form intensively in high school, but went to a top academic school in a marketable area and he's not had a chance to make art in college at all---the art classes are reserved for majors and there are no open studios. On vacations he feels rusty at it and lacking inspiration and it's sort of withering. He seems less happy and less creative without it--I hope he finds a way to bring it back in his life. In retrospect, I wish we looked into the opportunities for artistic practice for non-majors when looking at schools.

I don't know how many students are really choosing a university for their arts program, if they're not planning on studying an art form. I don't know of any and I'm of the age where all of my DCs, nieces, and nephews and lots of my friends' kids are all currently in college or recent grads. I think it's an "icing on the cake" type of thing that allows students to continue their art while they're studying something else.

For example, my two nieces danced on the dance team at their respective colleges. One was an applied math major and works at a tech company, and the other one was a business major and now works at one of the big consulting firms. My newphew went to Penn for pre-med and participated in Penn Masala - which is an Acapella group of Indian and Indian-American men that is really really good (perofrm at White House and other cool places). He said it was the highlight of his college years, very stress-relieving, and he made life-long friends. He's now in his residency at a top hospital.

Because it gets really boring when you don't pursue a hobby or something you love in addition to what you may major.

I was a little like OP in my younger years and my father was a lot like OP. Now I've got a son who wants to pursue a career in music and a daughter who wants to pursue a career in art. And I half jokingly, half seriously tell them, "you're killing me! You do know you're going to have to eat."

But, the thing is, they're really good. They put serious time into their music and art. And they love these things.

So, our compromise is that they're going to big schools where they have good art & music programs but also have a lot more on offer. My son is pursuing a dual degree in computer science on top of his music degree. My daughter will major in graphic design even though her natural inclination would be toward a strict fine art degree.

Ultimately, they're smart, diligent kids. One way or another, they'll be fine.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP: it’s not that I’m advocating vocational training. I get the value of learning how to read, write, think critically, problem solve. And I see the fringe benefit of art stuff as a fun and healthy activity. But where the arts oriented people lose me is when they choose one school over another based on the arts programming as opposed to variables that may have a more significant long term impact. Like choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes. It just seems that these things are nice to have but for $320k maybe they don’t matter that much and you should be focused on other factors?

You know, I wanted to believe that you asked the original question out of real curiosity and desire to learn about other people. People replied and explained, and your response is to double down and explain why you’re right and they’re wrong.

Seriously, no one is trying to convince you to value the arts as part of a college experience. No one cares whether you value it. Why do you care that others value it? Are you just desperate for something to judge other people about? Good lord.

The tell is the idea that people are "choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes."

OP: I’m obviously demonstrating a bit of proletarian disdain for the arts here, but I guess from a practical point of view, when I read things like my DS really wants a strong theatre program or something like that, I’m just thinking to myself - come on- high school is over, a man has to focus on making a living now. I totally appreciate that people have hobbies and interests but, I don’t know, you gotta focus on getting from A to B. That’s just my mindset. Thinking about the quality of art offerings feels frivolous but look, it’s not my wheelhouse. And btw I collect art and appreciate art. I guess I am just focused more on my kids being well positioned to get ultimately good jobs out of this whole college thing and be on a strong career trajectory. I’ve seen people get distracted by their passions and then have nothing to show for it

If you want vo-tech, go to vo-tech. Theater, music, and other performing arts are completely compatible with a productive college experience. They help brain development, they help create community and connections, they support mental and emotional health, and they teach skills that translate to other areas. Just off the top of my head, I know a lot of lawyers with theater backgrounds. I also know a lot of adults who enjoy performing music even as they earn a living some other way, and it's something you can enjoy for a lifetime. An overly narrow view of what it means to prepare to make a living ignores all that. Plus, it's a quality of life issue, which is a perfectly reasonable way to distinguish among colleges (and rankings aren't as meaningful as you seem to imply -- the #10 isn't really that different from the #20, which isn't all that different from the #30. Students can have great experiences that prepare them to be self-sufficient adults at lots of places -- why not pick the one that fits best?).

Consider their involvement in sports/dance/orchestra a different social group than their freshman dorm. Being with like minded people is always a plus.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP: it’s not that I’m advocating vocational training. I get the value of learning how to read, write, think critically, problem solve. And I see the fringe benefit of art stuff as a fun and healthy activity. But where the arts oriented people lose me is when they choose one school over another based on the arts programming as opposed to variables that may have a more significant long term impact. Like choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes. It just seems that these things are nice to have but for $320k maybe they don’t matter that much and you should be focused on other factors?

You know, I wanted to believe that you asked the original question out of real curiosity and desire to learn about other people. People replied and explained, and your response is to double down and explain why you’re right and they’re wrong.

Seriously, no one is trying to convince you to value the arts as part of a college experience. No one cares whether you value it. Why do you care that others value it? Are you just desperate for something to judge other people about? Good lord.

The tell is the idea that people are "choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes."

OP: I’m obviously demonstrating a bit of proletarian disdain for the arts here, but I guess from a practical point of view, when I read things like my DS really wants a strong theatre program or something like that, I’m just thinking to myself - come on- high school is over, a man has to focus on making a living now. I totally appreciate that people have hobbies and interests but, I don’t know, you gotta focus on getting from A to B. That’s just my mindset. Thinking about the quality of art offerings feels frivolous but look, it’s not my wheelhouse. And btw I collect art and appreciate art. I guess I am just focused more on my kids being well positioned to get ultimately good jobs out of this whole college thing and be on a strong career trajectory. I’ve seen people get distracted by their passions and then have nothing to show for it

Ok - so I'll judge - you seem like a mansplaining 50+ UMC white guy, probably in the C-suite of some mid-level company, who doesn't give a shit about his kid's happiness as long as they can make money and he can tout where they went to school to his buddies on the golf course.

Work to live, don't live to work.

I kind of get it - I saw the world like I think OP is describing it back when I was in my teens and twenties. The arts were nice extras but they weren't "real." But I've come to believe that people can't do the "real" things as well unless they have at least some of the broader understanding that you pick up through things like art, music, the humanities, sports, and non-vocational pursuits. So, I think OP is undervaluing these peripheral undertakings.

Second, I think a lot of us value schools based on criteria that aren't directly relevant to what our kids will personally experience. When we pick a school based on ranking, a non-trivial chunk of that ranking is based on resources that our kid will never use. The main benefit is that the kid will bask in the university's reflected glory.

Finally, the difference between a #30 and a #90 university isn't all that predictable on an individual level. Statistically, the #30 university probably produces better outcomes and higher salaries more often than the #90 does - but for any given student, results can vary wildly. My guess is that the kid who is studying chemistry at the #90 while he is enjoying the hell out of the kick ass music program is going to ultimately fare better than the kid studying chemistry at the #30 but who is grinding it out without much joy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not some kind of uncultured Neanderthal, I’m really not, but I find it a bit strange when I see parents focusing on the strength of this or that school’s art/theatre/music/dance programs. I get it, your kid is good at art, wants to stay with it, but come on. Unless you are loaded and the kid will never have to worry about supporting himself or herself, who cares about the quality of the art programming? It’s a nice hobby and a nice side benefit of going to college, but to prioritize it seems impractical to me. It’s hard for me to relate to. It’s like choosing a college based on how good the sports team is. Who cares? The point of college athletics is to use it to get into college, not to be a member of a team that had a 10-4 record rather than 8-6.

What am I missing?

The years of 18-21 are important in terms of developing as a full person--it's nearly the last window of brain development, it's the first period of somewhat independent adult life, and it's the time when you have the luxury to engage with broad aspects of life. If a kid is into the arts, staying with that alongside of whatever else they are studying will be interesting and good for their mental health now but also lay the groundwork for a cultural and creative life. Likewise for sports--you're laying more groundwork for healthy activity. Also, both help build a sense of belonging to the school which is one of the strongest predictors for academic success.

This. Obviously.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP: it’s not that I’m advocating vocational training. I get the value of learning how to read, write, think critically, problem solve. And I see the fringe benefit of art stuff as a fun and healthy activity. But where the arts oriented people lose me is when they choose one school over another based on the arts programming as opposed to variables that may have a more significant long term impact. Like choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes. It just seems that these things are nice to have but for $320k maybe they don’t matter that much and you should be focused on other factors?

You know, I wanted to believe that you asked the original question out of real curiosity and desire to learn about other people. People replied and explained, and your response is to double down and explain why you’re right and they’re wrong.

Seriously, no one is trying to convince you to value the arts as part of a college experience. No one cares whether you value it. Why do you care that others value it? Are you just desperate for something to judge other people about? Good lord.

The tell is the idea that people are "choosing a less reputable school because there are good pottery classes."

OP: I’m obviously demonstrating a bit of proletarian disdain for the arts here, but I guess from a practical point of view, when I read things like my DS really wants a strong theatre program or something like that, I’m just thinking to myself - come on- high school is over, a man has to focus on making a living now. I totally appreciate that people have hobbies and interests but, I don’t know, you gotta focus on getting from A to B. That’s just my mindset. Thinking about the quality of art offerings feels frivolous but look, it’s not my wheelhouse. And btw I collect art and appreciate art. I guess I am just focused more on my kids being well positioned to get ultimately good jobs out of this whole college thing and be on a strong career trajectory. I’ve seen people get distracted by their passions and then have nothing to show for it