1 Harvard
2 Stanford
3 MIT
4 Princeton
5 Yale
6 Penn
7 Duke
8 Northwestern
9 Columbia
10 Chicago/Hopkins/Caltech

There are 12 schools people consider T10. No one considers Vanderbilt or Rice or WashU T10. The 12 arguable “T10” schools, plus the other three ivies (Brown, Dartmouth, Cornell) make up the Ivy Plus. It’s a pretty objective list of the 15 schools people would consider “top” colleges and there’s a gap after that.

Case in point, with the exception of UChicago, who famously games the rankings, I don’t think any of those schools need to offer an ED2. The Vanderbilt Emory WashU tier schools all need ED2 for yield rates and to keep acceptance rates lower.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Top 10" National Universities:

1) Princeton
2) Stanford
3) Harvard
4) MIT
5) Yale

6) U Penn
7) Northwestern
8) Duke
9) Chicago
10) Columbia

Top 10 LACs

USNA-Annapolis
USMA--West Point
USAFA--Colorado Springs

1) Williams College
2) Amherst College
3) Swarthmore College
4) Pomona College
5) Claremont McKenna College

6) Bowdoin College
7) Carleton Colege
8) Wellesley College
9) Middlebury College
10) Davidson College

I agree with your national universities list, but no one considers SLACs to be part of the conversation when discussing T10 schools...

Do NOT agree with your list. You just made it up.

Anonymous wrote:"Top 10" National Universities:

1) Princeton
2) Stanford
3) Harvard
4) MIT
5) Yale

6) U Penn
7) Northwestern
8) Duke
9) Chicago
10) Columbia

Top 10 LACs

USNA-Annapolis
USMA--West Point
USAFA--Colorado Springs

1) Williams College
2) Amherst College
3) Swarthmore College
4) Pomona College
5) Claremont McKenna College

6) Bowdoin College
7) Carleton Colege
8) Wellesley College
9) Middlebury College
10) Davidson College

I agree with your national universities list, but no one considers SLACs to be part of the conversation when discussing T10 schools...

"Top 10" National Universities:

1) Princeton
2) Stanford
3) Harvard
4) MIT
5) Yale

6) U Penn
7) Northwestern
8) Duke
9) Chicago
10) Columbia

Top 10 LACs

USNA-Annapolis
USMA--West Point
USAFA--Colorado Springs

1) Williams College
2) Amherst College
3) Swarthmore College
4) Pomona College
5) Claremont McKenna College

6) Bowdoin College
7) Carleton Colege
8) Wellesley College
9) Middlebury College
10) Davidson College

This debate is so utterly pointless akin to which supermodel should I date. All schools in the T20, T30 and T50 are fantastic and will present great opportunities to any student fortunate enough to get accepted and then actually take advantage of all the university has to offer. I worry that the Jared Kushner’s of the world squander these opportunities and “waste” the spot. The vast majority of applicants do not get into these schools, especially the so called T15. This debate is totally pointless in that regard. Given the enormous change in the admissions landscape, the superstars and change makers of the future will come from a much wider array of schools. There will be more duds from the so called T10. Second generation legacy from Princeton will fall flat, for example. Goldman, McKinsey, etc., already know this.

I also don't think Yale deserves to be in the HYP, however their endowment is enormous so they will probably get their act together.

I still don’t get all the love for Duke. What is it exactly stellar in that makes it a top ten school?

Anonymous wrote:Guys, it's very simple. No point debating about endless lists. There are just two categories: Ivies and everybody else.

Someone can't handle the existence of Stnaford Duke and mit

Anonymous wrote:Guys, it's very simple. No point debating about endless lists. There are just two categories: Ivies and everybody else.

Very true if you are a borderline D1 athlete not looking to go to a Patriot League school to play

Anonymous wrote:Harvard
Yale
Stanford
MIT
Princeton
Columbia
Chicago
Northwestern
Duke
Johns Hopkins

I don’t add Caltech due to its extremely niche offerings and the fact that it’s so small.

How do you not have Penn? Definitely need to remove one of Chicago/Northwestern/Hopkins to make space for Penn

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:HYPSM, Columbia, Penn, Chicago, Northwestern, Duke, Caltech, Hopkins, in some combination.

Why do so many people group HYPSM? Private counselors really push it and push things like "top 10" when any ranking has a school in the top 10. At this point it really is HS and then a gap.
Top 10 is a completely arbitrary cutoff and there is no solid list. Several lists have Chicago and Hopkins outside the top 10 for example.

HYPSM = Elite of the Elite

Not Y anymore, too weak for STEM.

I don't think you understand what STEM is. Maybe Yale isn't quite as strong in CS and closely related eng fields (which it is investing heavily in now) but it is plenty strong in other science and math areas.
STEM misunderstanding is out of control in DC, which is funny because it is not viewed so narrowly in Silicon Valley where we moved from.

No I understand completely what STEM is. Yale is not tops at a single STEM subject, whereas HPSM are tops in at least 1 STEM subject each. Harvard is tops for physics, math, biology, chemistry. Princeton is tops for physics, math, chemistry, cs, and engineering. Stanford and MIT are pre-eminent for all STEM. Yale is not tops at any of those subjects, I would be more impressed by a Penn or Duke grad in many STEM disciplines.

What are you using as your guide for what is "top" in a subject?

No worse than top 5 in the US for a subject

I think PP was asking for the source used to determine top 5 in a subject.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:HYPSM, Columbia, Penn, Chicago, Northwestern, Duke, Caltech, Hopkins, in some combination.

Why do so many people group HYPSM? Private counselors really push it and push things like "top 10" when any ranking has a school in the top 10. At this point it really is HS and then a gap.
Top 10 is a completely arbitrary cutoff and there is no solid list. Several lists have Chicago and Hopkins outside the top 10 for example.

HYPSM = Elite of the Elite

Not Y anymore, too weak for STEM.

I don't think you understand what STEM is. Maybe Yale isn't quite as strong in CS and closely related eng fields (which it is investing heavily in now) but it is plenty strong in other science and math areas.
STEM misunderstanding is out of control in DC, which is funny because it is not viewed so narrowly in Silicon Valley where we moved from.

No I understand completely what STEM is. Yale is not tops at a single STEM subject, whereas HPSM are tops in at least 1 STEM subject each. Harvard is tops for physics, math, biology, chemistry. Princeton is tops for physics, math, chemistry, cs, and engineering. Stanford and MIT are pre-eminent for all STEM. Yale is not tops at any of those subjects, I would be more impressed by a Penn or Duke grad in many STEM disciplines.

Those pool Yale STEM grads (who are currently benefitting from big STEM investment and tons of research opportunity) will get over you not being impressed by them...someday

Anonymous wrote:Harvard
Yale
Stanford
MIT
Princeton
Columbia
Chicago
Northwestern
Duke
Johns Hopkins

I don’t add Caltech due to its extremely niche offerings and the fact that it’s so small.

Take out Hopkins, add Penn

Harvard
Yale
Stanford
MIT
Princeton
Columbia
Chicago
Northwestern
Duke
Johns Hopkins

I don’t add Caltech due to its extremely niche offerings and the fact that it’s so small.

Anonymous wrote:Also, for the SLACs can we please make AWS happen? It is already an established name and has a nice ring to it! People just get confused by things that can mean multiple things like the little 3

No. No one cares about that dumb acronym, and people don’t consider LACs when talking about the top 10.