Anon156 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Your daughter needs an psychological evaluation, OP, to assess whether she has ADHD, or anxiety, or something else that is predisposing her to such behaviors. You would be a neglectful parent to ignore this and chalk it up to her friends' bad influences, because if she has untreated issues, she will continue to suffer and reduce her chances of creating healthy friendships and academic success.

Walt Whitman is an academic pressure cooker (read The Overachievers, by a Whitman alum, about the school), and most kids stay out of trouble because they're too busy working to get into selective universities.

MCPS and other public school systems are known for their failed restorative justice policies and lack of discipline when it comes to real crime and assault. MCPS has a rulebook, but I've got to say, it's rarely followed, particularly for classroom behavior issues and dress code issues. Children with behavior disorders (ex: who scream at teachers and throw chairs, we've know a few over the course of 12 years of MCPS) and who should really be in a contained classroom under special guidance, do not face much discipline because teachers and administrators' hands are tied, due to deliberate prioritization of graduation rates. Every student is pushed to graduate in the hopes they will be financially independent as adults, even if they haven't actually fulfilled academic requirements. So families flock to wealthy neighborhoods that place heavy importance on academics, in an attempt to get their kids in with a crowd of hard-working students. It usually works, which is why they keep doing it.

This is the reality of public school, where they can't select on entry, OP. So it behooves your child to exercise self-control and develop her own work ethic. Help her with that.

Thanks for this - I just wanted to reassure that DD is already under psychological support - I am just weighing in my mind whether she would thrive or she would struggle at WW. I am sure she has the brains to go through it academically - it is just a matter of whether she wants to put the hard work and deal with the pressure or become disruptive, that is what I am trying to work our in my mind which way will it go ... I already ordered the book, thanks.

I am confused as from one side I see all these posts about WW being pretty hard and academically rigorous (which I love it personally!) but on the other side I come across about the drug misuse, the terrible sexual allegations (including the coach and the annual ball, now cancelled), the revolting racists incidents and the incidents with the three kids from the youth shelter. The neighborhood seems amazingly safe - never had any concern walking around although admittingly I did not walk at night in the residential area, only in the Apple store area. t

I am mentally struggling to reconcile the diverging pictures (violence, allegations, racism on one side and academic excellence and well-behaved children on the other) which I get from the same school! Any help for me to go through this process would be great

It sounds like you have the right picture of WW's situation. On the academic rigor, I would say that all MCPS schools are what you make them. At the top schools in the county, kids sign up for tons of AP courses (too many, imho, because there is a sort of arms race of keeping up with peers). Lots of kids over-achieving to build a good profile for college admissions. But MCPS, itself, is very lenient academically. Late work is tolerated (in my school, it is not quite encouraged but my kid has the impression that it is normal and no big deal because of the leniency of policies). There are also tons of makeup quizzes offered and that kind of thing. So yes, kids work very hard and push themselves for top grades. But the school itself gives them a lot of slack.

Socially, there are definitely all of the incidents that you describe. The number of racial incidents is heartbreaking. My own experience with them is that they come from rich, entitled kids and are done anonymously. As an AA family, I can say that all AA kids we know (probably all minority kids) have some experience with issues, but they are mostly microaggressions and things like anonymous graffiti rather than direct racial confrontations. Drugs are also a problem, as they seem to be everywhere. (I have a kid at a top private university and she says that the worst drug use there is among the rich kids from elite private high schools).

Anon156 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP what kinds of behaviors did your DD have in her current school?

Replying back to teachers, general rudeness, being overexcited in corridors (being loud or running around), and some physical incidents too but nothing particularly malicious or bullying. She is good academically and really smart but negative about the way she is perceived by others and tends to hang around with troubling children. Maybe the high academic standards of WW will force her to get back on track or maybe she will feel rejected (as children are too focused on studying) and in that case, I wonder if her behavior might become an issue. Not really sure about how easy it is to get excluded from WW or in fact any other MoCO school...

OP, honest truth here. I think your daughter, regardless of what MCPS High School, will have trouble if these behaviors continue. Every school (yes, even W schools) has kids that act this way, and most of the time, they all cling and hang out together because the "good" kids won't want to be associated with them. You need to figure out a way to help your daughter reverse her behaviors so that she can find a good group of friends who will accept her. Otherwise, she'll just end up being part of the wrong crowd.

From the perspective of parents of a child who is sometimes perceived as being inattentive and not 100% perfectly behaved they would say the teachers and admin are over the top too strict and punitive.

From the perspective of parents with children they perceive to be highly intelligent and successful they would say the teachers are not strict enough. These are the same parents who want kids with behaviors expelled and those with special needs to be sent away to institutions.

Having come from a different school that is more diverse and has more of a mix in parent incomes, I would say the first view is much closer to reality.

Anon156 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How old is your DD? You sound a bit in denial about your child's issues. Please take her to someone to be evaluated.

She is being supported - she is 15. Perhaps I sound on denial - helpful to hear that so I can reflect on it - but I am not 100% sure I am as I am actually genuinely concerned! I am not trying to be confrontative but i wonder why you came to the conclusion that I am on denial. It would helpful to know - sometime things are obviously in front out eyes and we don't see them until people draw our attention to them

??
I think you mean either "combative" or "confrontational" though I do like this new compound word you've made up.

I think cheating and anxiety are probably a bigger problem than misbehavior at Whitman. It’s an achievement culture, so it has all the issues that come with that. The school gives less homework these days and brings in therapy dogs etc, so they’re trying. I think a lot of the teachers turn a blind eye to cheating, which worsens the problem. The students feel like they have to cheat to level the field. The school is actively dealing with the racism and antisemitism with the help of students, and I think students are intolerant of classmates who are racist or antisemitic. It’s kind of a cancel culture at Whitman, for better or worse. It’s hard for kids to recover from hate talk. No one wants to be associated with them, and I know that’s not the prevailing ideology. It’s a liberal-leaning place with educated parents. No place is perfect and you have to steer your kids to the best friend groups for them anywhere.

Anonymous wrote:

You have to be a troll. The school is the top academic school in the county other than the magnet programs but under the surface it has a lot of issues including race issues, and a community that covered up or was in denial about a sexually abusive coach because the parents want everything to appear like Pleasantville. This is why the disruptive or underachieving children we have known there find it extremely stressful and hate it. Heck even the ones that are high achieving sometimes hate it because of all the stress to be perfect.

Not a troll, honestly. what I am expressing here is out of genuine concern for my daughter - I am reaching out for insights to help me think things through. Not out of boredom and to have fun reading your responses, as a troll would do! the fact that it is the top academic school in the county is what drew me to it + Bethesda is lovely... I know my daughter could handle the academic side if she put her minds to it and if I am able to support her adequately

Wealthy schools have wealthy school problems. It's a thing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't recognize any of these awful behaviors, and I have two kids currently at Whitman (one girl, one boy, different grades.) All of my kids' friends are well rounded, mature, respectful, care about their studies and about the world. Maybe friends in their outer circles smoke weed or vape, but that's not the dominant trait. Their cohort is probably what I love best about Whitman.

Teachers seem to be more lenient than not in the classroom, I wish they required more respect, though I get the sense that the school deals with serious issues very professionally.

I'm sure there are also bad kids or trouble makers or whatever other type of humans there are out there. But my impression overall of this school is not one of badly behaved kids.

Same. Two kids, have never seen this. If anything the teachers way over react to small things. We moved from another district and in the schools there the teacher were very busy dealing with really big infractions like kids skipping school and could care less if kids pulled out cell phones in class.

Sorry for the blunt question but do the teachers overreact or are they lenient? It should be one of the two, hopefully leniency, having to choose between the two!

You have to be a troll. The school is the top academic school in the county other than the magnet programs but under the surface it has a lot of issues including race issues, and a community that covered up or was in denial about a sexually abusive coach because the parents want everything to appear like Pleasantville. This is why the disruptive or underachieving children we have known there find it extremely stressful and hate it. Heck even the ones that are high achieving sometimes hate it because of all the stress to be perfect.

Anonymous wrote:I don't recognize any of these awful behaviors, and I have two kids currently at Whitman (one girl, one boy, different grades.) All of my kids' friends are well rounded, mature, respectful, care about their studies and about the world. Maybe friends in their outer circles smoke weed or vape, but that's not the dominant trait. Their cohort is probably what I love best about Whitman.

Teachers seem to be more lenient than not in the classroom, I wish they required more respect, though I get the sense that the school deals with serious issues very professionally.

I'm sure there are also bad kids or trouble makers or whatever other type of humans there are out there. But my impression overall of this school is not one of badly behaved kids.

Same. Two kids, have never seen this. If anything the teachers way over react to small things. We moved from another district and in the schools there the teacher were very busy dealing with really big infractions like kids skipping school and could care less if kids pulled out cell phones in class.

Anonymous wrote:How old is your DD? You sound a bit in denial about your child's issues. Please take her to someone to be evaluated.

She is being supported - she is 15. Perhaps I sound on denial - helpful to hear that so I can reflect on it - but I am not 100% sure I am as I am actually genuinely concerned! I am not trying to be confrontative but i wonder why you came to the conclusion that I am on denial. It would helpful to know - sometime things are obviously in front out eyes and we don't see them until people draw our attention to them

Anonymous wrote:Your daughter needs an psychological evaluation, OP, to assess whether she has ADHD, or anxiety, or something else that is predisposing her to such behaviors. You would be a neglectful parent to ignore this and chalk it up to her friends' bad influences, because if she has untreated issues, she will continue to suffer and reduce her chances of creating healthy friendships and academic success.

Walt Whitman is an academic pressure cooker (read The Overachievers, by a Whitman alum, about the school), and most kids stay out of trouble because they're too busy working to get into selective universities.

MCPS and other public school systems are known for their failed restorative justice policies and lack of discipline when it comes to real crime and assault. MCPS has a rulebook, but I've got to say, it's rarely followed, particularly for classroom behavior issues and dress code issues. Children with behavior disorders (ex: who scream at teachers and throw chairs, we've know a few over the course of 12 years of MCPS) and who should really be in a contained classroom under special guidance, do not face much discipline because teachers and administrators' hands are tied, due to deliberate prioritization of graduation rates. Every student is pushed to graduate in the hopes they will be financially independent as adults, even if they haven't actually fulfilled academic requirements. So families flock to wealthy neighborhoods that place heavy importance on academics, in an attempt to get their kids in with a crowd of hard-working students. It usually works, which is why they keep doing it.

This is the reality of public school, where they can't select on entry, OP. So it behooves your child to exercise self-control and develop her own work ethic. Help her with that.

Thanks for this - I just wanted to reassure that DD is already under psychological support - I am just weighing in my mind whether she would thrive or she would struggle at WW. I am sure she has the brains to go through it academically - it is just a matter of whether she wants to put the hard work and deal with the pressure or become disruptive, that is what I am trying to work our in my mind which way will it go ... I already ordered the book, thanks.

I am confused as from one side I see all these posts about WW being pretty hard and academically rigorous (which I love it personally!) but on the other side I come across about the drug misuse, the terrible sexual allegations (including the coach and the annual ball, now cancelled), the revolting racists incidents and the incidents with the three kids from the youth shelter. The neighborhood seems amazingly safe - never had any concern walking around although admittingly I did not walk at night in the residential area, only in the Apple store area. t

I am mentally struggling to reconcile the diverging pictures (violence, allegations, racism on one side and academic excellence and well-behaved children on the other) which I get from the same school! Any help for me to go through this process would be great

Anonymous wrote:

Physical incidents are a form of bullying.

That is true, good point

Anon156 wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP what kinds of behaviors did your DD have in her current school?

Replying back to teachers, general rudeness, being overexcited in corridors (being loud or running around), and some physical incidents too but nothing particularly malicious or bullying. She is good academically and really smart but negative about the way she is perceived by others and tends to hang around with troubling children. Maybe the high academic standards of WW will force her to get back on track or maybe she will feel rejected (as children are too focused on studying) and in that case, I wonder if her behavior might become an issue. Not really sure about how easy it is to get excluded from WW or in fact any other MoCO school...

This is a NP with two children at Whitman. First, let me say that I find your honesty refreshing. You describe your daughter without making it seem like you blame yourself, which is hard to do. A few factors that are important to predicting whether your concerns are valid or not are:

What age would your DD be joining Whitman? Will she be new, or joining along with all of the other 9th graders?
How far are you moving? Will she be essentially starting over, or still connected with old friends?
Is she motivated to do well in school? (I know these behaviors are often seen as indicators kids are not, but that's not always the case)

My DD started there in 9th, coming from the feeder middle school. The start did not go well, with some of the behaviors you describe, but I expect milder. No physical incidents, but skipping classes, rudeness to teachers, etc. Totally inexcusable but rooted in anxiety and depression, big time. We knew that. A year and a half later we are in a much better place, and the grades show it. Some of it is greater maturity, but some of it is me stepping in at the first sign of a problem. The admin needs to know you care and are keeping an eye - then they will too. Otherwise, unless there are major problems, she will fly below the radar and can continue down a negative path for too long before someone notices. While I hate to be that sort of intervening parent, it was critical to getting my DD back on track when she was slightly derailed.

I will say this - it is hard for merely "smart" students at Whitman, because everyone is above grade level. This is something my DD is still dealing with. But I don't know if it's much better at other nearby schools. It's also a farce because there are SO many kids with crazy GPAs achieved via the semester system. So if she's very insecure this could be an issue, but she may also find herself with fantastic grades, which can help boost her confidence and perhaps deter some of the other attention-seeking behaviors.

It's a big school. I've talked to my DD about the fact that there are many paths through it - most of which are good choices. Your DD will probably find one, but you need to keep an eye on things from the start. There are negative paths too, and you have to act quickly if she takes a few steps down one. I do think the majority of the teachers are good (but certainly not all). Good luck!

Anonymous wrote:I don't recognize any of these awful behaviors, and I have two kids currently at Whitman (one girl, one boy, different grades.) All of my kids' friends are well rounded, mature, respectful, care about their studies and about the world. Maybe friends in their outer circles smoke weed or vape, but that's not the dominant trait. Their cohort is probably what I love best about Whitman.

Teachers seem to be more lenient than not in the classroom, I wish they required more respect, though I get the sense that the school deals with serious issues very professionally.

I'm sure there are also bad kids or trouble makers or whatever other type of humans there are out there. But my impression overall of this school is not one of badly behaved kids.

Former Whitman parent here and I agree. However there is a difference between kids in the AP/honors track and "on-track". DC tutored in an on-track class and there were behavior problems there that DC didn't see in AP classes. So there are definitely different cohorts, as there are in any public school. Whitman and its peers just have a larger group of academically motivated students.

OP, your DC is going to have trouble in any public school if she has physical control issues. That just won't fly and she may get bounced from school to school. You may need to consider a specialized private school that has the capacity to deal with behavioral issues.