Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IB is on par with AP for college admissions. IB isn’t a good match for students who accelerate math though.

why is it not a good fit for students who accelerate in math? I would think the 2 different tracks with standard and higher levels for both would give a wide variety of options for different math skill and interest levels.

Because IB programs have their own math programs, so if you have a kid who accelerated math IB math could be a step back.

Not necessarily. Advanced IB math students are encouraged to do independent advanced math research for their IB EE (Extended Essay, thesis). They can also intern in a math setting to meet their CAS (Community, Action Service requirement). I have a nephew who volunteered at the National Academy of Sciences on a math-oriented astronomy project to meet his CAS requirement from Marshall HS in Fairfax (most Marshall students take at least some IB classes). It's far from easy to score a 6 or 7 on IB HL math. My nephew reports that some IB students who double up on a few AP exams score 5s on BC calc fail yet fail to score high on IB HL Math.

Kids with a 5 in Calc BC who attend American colleges have no reason to care about their IB math score. Calc BC is equivalent to Calc 2, and most universities don’t give more than Calc 1 credit for IB HL math. Basically your nephew’s friends have figured out that IB math is useless for American math students and are rationally choosing to neglect the more arcane portions of the IB curriculum to self-study for the much more useful AP exam.

Again, more people who don’t know what they’re talking about.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IB is on par with AP for college admissions. IB isn’t a good match for students who accelerate math though.

why is it not a good fit for students who accelerate in math? I would think the 2 different tracks with standard and higher levels for both would give a wide variety of options for different math skill and interest levels.

Because IB programs have their own math programs, so if you have a kid who accelerated math IB math could be a step back.

Not necessarily. Advanced IB math students are encouraged to do independent advanced math research for their IB EE (Extended Essay, thesis). They can also intern in a math setting to meet their CAS (Community, Action Service requirement). I have a nephew who volunteered at the National Academy of Sciences on a math-oriented astronomy project to meet his CAS requirement from Marshall HS in Fairfax (most Marshall students take at least some IB classes). It's far from easy to score a 6 or 7 on IB HL math. My nephew reports that some IB students who double up on a few AP exams score 5s on BC calc fail yet fail to score high on IB HL Math.

Can confirm AP is much easier. Went to IB high school- kids who got 5 on AP and admitted to Stanford, mit, Michigan, etc barely cracked 5/6 on IB exam.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IB is on par with AP for college admissions. IB isn’t a good match for students who accelerate math though.

why is it not a good fit for students who accelerate in math? I would think the 2 different tracks with standard and higher levels for both would give a wide variety of options for different math skill and interest levels.

Because IB programs have their own math programs, so if you have a kid who accelerated math IB math could be a step back.

This person doesn’t know what they’re talking about.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree with PP - kids who are strong in math/science do better with AP than IB. You can always mix and match so you take some IB and some AP, but I would not encourage a kid who was strong in math/science to get the IB diploma. AP science classes tend to go into more depth in particular than IB science classes. However, for a kid who is into the humanities and loves writing, IB is great.

I’m in a science field and disagree. You don’t need to focus so much on math and science in high school. Plenty of time in college and beyond.

It’s more important to develop strong writing, which is lacking in public schools. The people who rise up in the ranks in the STEM fields are not the ones strongest in the sciences. It’s the ones who are strong on the soft skills and humanities side with writing, communicating, etc…

The science and math AP courses are very strong.
They do a great job of challenging students and pushing them to develop critical thinking and abstract reasoning skills.
And it is not like you cannot learn how to write through AP courses.
Some of the science APs like AP physics 1 are less about solving calculations and more about giving clear descriptive paragraph length answers. You learn how to express your thoughts in a logical sequence that is concise and has the appropriate flow of ideas. All the AP History courses do a great job of teaching students how to write. Same with AP English Language and Literature. Of course, this is all assuming you have reasonable teachers who know the subject.

Not necessarily. When you have AP courses with 30-35 students there is not a lot of writing involved or any feedback on what little writing there is. It’s also very teacher dependent. Also with AP, kids can choose what courses they want and they might not take any AP English courses, etc..

Even if you have to write a paragraph answer on a test for one AP course, the writing just is not adequate when you compare it to IB. There are no multiple choice tests at all. All the tests, in every subject, involves writing and analysis even in science and math. It’s alot of writing and critical thinking and much less emphasis on memorization. In addition, it’s graded by a 3rd party so there is no easy pass or grade inflation possible.

Multiple choice can be very difficult. It may sound easy to you but try some of the MCQ exams and they are very difficult.
Especially with the time crunch. It sounds like you don’t know much about AP courses.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree with PP - kids who are strong in math/science do better with AP than IB. You can always mix and match so you take some IB and some AP, but I would not encourage a kid who was strong in math/science to get the IB diploma. AP science classes tend to go into more depth in particular than IB science classes. However, for a kid who is into the humanities and loves writing, IB is great.

I’m in a science field and disagree. You don’t need to focus so much on math and science in high school. Plenty of time in college and beyond.

It’s more important to develop strong writing, which is lacking in public schools. The people who rise up in the ranks in the STEM fields are not the ones strongest in the sciences. It’s the ones who are strong on the soft skills and humanities side with writing, communicating, etc…

The science and math AP courses are very strong.
They do a great job of challenging students and pushing them to develop critical thinking and abstract reasoning skills.
And it is not like you cannot learn how to write through AP courses.
Some of the science APs like AP physics 1 are less about solving calculations and more about giving clear descriptive paragraph length answers. You learn how to express your thoughts in a logical sequence that is concise and has the appropriate flow of ideas. All the AP History courses do a great job of teaching students how to write. Same with AP English Language and Literature. Of course, this is all assuming you have reasonable teachers who know the subject.

Not necessarily. When you have AP courses with 30-35 students there is not a lot of writing involved or any feedback on what little writing there is. It’s also very teacher dependent. Also with AP, kids can choose what courses they want and they might not take any AP English courses, etc..

Even if you have to write a paragraph answer on a test for one AP course, the writing just is not adequate when you compare it to IB. There are no multiple choice tests at all. All the tests, in every subject, involves writing and analysis even in science and math. It’s alot of writing and critical thinking and much less emphasis on memorization. In addition, it’s graded by a 3rd party so there is no easy pass or grade inflation possible.

Anonymous wrote:What you get with a strong public school IBD program in this Metro area (none in the District itself) is the closest experience your family can get to a fine private school without paying the tuition. Most of top IBDs in this Metro area run as school-within-a-school programs in big public high schools. Kids attend IBD classes with a fairly set peer group of strong students over a 4-year period. For example, at Washington-Liberty, only about 100 students earn the IBD annually out of a graduating class of more than 700. With AP, your kid doesn't accrue the benefit of the same esprit de corps.

The most enriching components of IBD for many kids are the 2-year Theory of Knowledge class and the Extended Essay research and writing element, which AP doesn't offer. Also, IBD language learning emphasizes speaking and listening to a far greater extent than AP, which is great. Kids who excel at speaking languages can take much tougher IBD Higher Level language exams than those offered by the College Board.

With more than 80% of AP Chinese takers scoring 5s, it doesn't hurt if a kid can score 6-7 (out of 7) on IBD HL Chinese to stand out on college applications.

Another difference is that the IB diploma is a curriculum of required courses not just a hodge podge of AP courses that kids feel like taking. The writing is much more intensive in the IB program than any AP course, even in the sciences.

I agree that the Extended essay really pushes kids in writing and analysis. It’s basically a mini-thesis. The language in IB is much more demanding with higher expectations and really sets kids apart who do well, unlike the AP test which is far easier.

What you get with a strong public school IBD program in this Metro area (none in the District itself) is the closest experience your family can get to a fine private school without paying the tuition. Most of top IBDs in this Metro area run as school-within-a-school programs in big public high schools. Kids attend IBD classes with a fairly set peer group of strong students over a 4-year period. For example, at Washington-Liberty, only about 100 students earn the IBD annually out of a graduating class of more than 700. With AP, your kid doesn't accrue the benefit of the same esprit de corps.

The most enriching components of IBD for many kids are the 2-year Theory of Knowledge class and the Extended Essay research and writing element, which AP doesn't offer. Also, IBD language learning emphasizes speaking and listening to a far greater extent than AP, which is great. Kids who excel at speaking languages can take much tougher IBD Higher Level language exams than those offered by the College Board.

With more than 80% of AP Chinese takers scoring 5s, it doesn't hurt if a kid can score 6-7 (out of 7) on IBD HL Chinese to stand out on college applications.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Agree with PP - kids who are strong in math/science do better with AP than IB. You can always mix and match so you take some IB and some AP, but I would not encourage a kid who was strong in math/science to get the IB diploma. AP science classes tend to go into more depth in particular than IB science classes. However, for a kid who is into the humanities and loves writing, IB is great.

I’m in a science field and disagree. You don’t need to focus so much on math and science in high school. Plenty of time in college and beyond.

It’s more important to develop strong writing, which is lacking in public schools. The people who rise up in the ranks in the STEM fields are not the ones strongest in the sciences. It’s the ones who are strong on the soft skills and humanities side with writing, communicating, etc…

The science and math AP courses are very strong.
They do a great job of challenging students and pushing them to develop critical thinking and abstract reasoning skills.
And it is not like you cannot learn how to write through AP courses.
Some of the science APs like AP physics 1 are less about solving calculations and more about giving clear descriptive paragraph length answers. You learn how to express your thoughts in a logical sequence that is concise and has the appropriate flow of ideas. All the AP History courses do a great job of teaching students how to write. Same with AP English Language and Literature. Of course, this is all assuming you have reasonable teachers who know the subject.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IB is on par with AP for college admissions. IB isn’t a good match for students who accelerate math though.

why is it not a good fit for students who accelerate in math? I would think the 2 different tracks with standard and higher levels for both would give a wide variety of options for different math skill and interest levels.

Because IB programs have their own math programs, so if you have a kid who accelerated math IB math could be a step back.

Not necessarily. Advanced IB math students are encouraged to do independent advanced math research for their IB EE (Extended Essay, thesis). They can also intern in a math setting to meet their CAS (Community, Action Service requirement). I have a nephew who volunteered at the National Academy of Sciences on a math-oriented astronomy project to meet his CAS requirement from Marshall HS in Fairfax (most Marshall students take at least some IB classes). It's far from easy to score a 6 or 7 on IB HL math. My nephew reports that some IB students who double up on a few AP exams score 5s on BC calc fail yet fail to score high on IB HL Math.

Independent math research is hard to do even for advanced math students at college.
I am skeptical of what type of math research a high school student would be doing especially without the guidance of a very involved math college professor

Did we know that Eastern is adding an application IB Honors cohort for grades 9-11? This seems like a step in the right direction.

Washington-Liberty in Arlington, where I used to teach, has had a strong IBD program since the 90s. In Arlington, in order to qualify to take 9th and 10th grade Pre-IB courses, students need high MS grades and must have taken algebra no later than 8th grade and done well in the class.

One thing that I don't like about IBD is that students can only take IBD courses and exams offered at their schools, the way AP worked 30 years ago. Some small IBD programs will only offer a menu of a dozen IBD courses while other schools will offer two or three times as many.

Some of my IBD students would sign up for AP exams in subjects where they'd mastered content but couldn't take the corresponding exams for IBD, e.g. Art-Drawing, Latin (IBD teaches only modern languages), or US History and US Govt and Politics (IBD doesn't teach US-centric classes).

IBD just started permitting students enrolled in IB World Schools to take courses not offered at their schools on-line (only a few options for right now, e.g. environmental studies).

A few of my "full" IB Diploma students were looking ahead to bargain BAs at top universities in Canada or the UK, where universities normally set specific IB points total cut-offs to review applications, e.g. 36 points or more for a prospective poli science major.

Anonymous wrote:Many roads to Mecca.

An IBD program is obviously only as good as the resources and students it has to work with. DC doesn't put in the resources or build the students like MoCo and NOVA do. Until that changes, IBD will not work as a magic bullet for high achievement in DC.

True. I've taught in several IB high schools, both in the US and in another country. IB program quality varies widely. Some schools send their teachers for IB training and others don't. Some schools are all IB (meaning all students are in the diploma program - like WIS) and some track and allow students to just take a few IB classes. I think universities value the full IB Diploma and students can get a bump in admissions with the full diploma, rather than just random classes. In schools where I taught, strong math students often took the AP Calc exams and scored well on them. I taught at one IB school where the only AP class offered was AP Calc, so the strong math students could take it if they wanted.

In the DMV, WIS is for sure one of the best (my DCs all graduated from WIS), and I hear great things about the programs at RM and BCC in Moco, and George Mason in Falls Church. I'm not familiar with any of the other schools so if I'm leaving any other great programs out, it's for that reason.

Back to OP's question, I wouldn't care about IBD in DC, unless you're coming out of a DCI feeder and DCI is the best public middle school you have access to.

Many roads to Mecca.

An IBD program is obviously only as good as the resources and students it has to work with. DC doesn't put in the resources or build the students like MoCo and NOVA do. Until that changes, IBD will not work as a magic bullet for high achievement in DC.

Anonymous wrote:Good point, I’ve done STEM oriented legal work for a federal agency since 9/11 and agree with PP above. Although I trained as an engineer, my career has been built on the writing and research skills I gained in law school. We’re planning to move to the burbs for a strong IBD program for our two children. We’re not satisfied with DCI. There isn’t nearly enough ability grouping/academic tracking in the DCI middle school, portending fairly mediocre academics at the HS level.

Ha, I’m kind of the reverse. All of my education was focused on humanities, but as a federal lawyer I found late in the game that I actually have quantitative/analytical skills that allow me to do regulatory legal work where that is an asset. I didn’t realize that most lawyers are functionally innumerate! I struggled in my STEM AP classs (calc and physics) and avoided STEM thereafter. I wonder if an IB program would have been more encouraging for me.