Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 20:43     Subject: Re:The golden handcuffs of biglaw
One thing I'm always surprised about in these golden handcuff discussions is what the lawyers plan to do in the far more likely scenario of getting pushed out of big law?

I mean, if you look at the summer associate class you started with, probably half of them are out of biglaw within 5 years. Fifteen years later, maybe 20% are still in biglaw? And then the jump to equity partner you lose probably half of those people. Some people leave voluntarily, but a lot of the times people are pushed out or it's "mutual" (as in, writing on the wall that there aren't promotion opportunities, or you don't have a supporting partner, or whatever).

So when people say that in year 6 or 8 or 12 that their spending habits are such that they don't know how they can leave biglaw, I always think: why would you have done that?? Ignore the fact that you're statistically likely to hate it. Just moreso, you're statistically unlikely to be able to stay in biglaw for 25 years. So buying the $4m house and beach house, what's your plan when you're told you're not making equity partner? This isn't some long shot odds; it's really reasonable or even likely to assume you're going to lose your job.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 20:30     Subject: The golden handcuffs of biglaw
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My spouse is a big law partner. We send our kids to public school and have a house that is in the cheaper area of bethesda (oxymoron) and mostly live like UMC people — nothing designer, our house is super outdated, our cars are heaters, kids don’t go to those expensive sleepaway camps, etc. we do splurge on vacations because he is so overworked that he wants vacations just to be as easy as possible. I think you need to make decisions about where to spend your money to keep your sanity.

We have a ton saved up because he has always wanted to quit but for him the golden handcuffs has really been finding something that is equally prestigious and would not require moving cross country. At a certain point it becomes hard to off ramp because you are so senior no one wants to hire you for a regular old job. He now has sort of a plan of trying to retire at 55 and get a job with a non-profit. We’ll see if that happens.


In this scenario do you have a job?



SAHWs are a big part of the golden handcuff problem. Them not working, and having lots of expensive nice stuff, beach houses on the coast, etc. are a reason the men often have to keep working.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 19:16     Subject: The golden handcuffs of biglaw
Anonymous wrote:Early retired Biglaw partner here. It’s difficult to avoid the golden handcuffs but it absolutely can be done. Don’t buy a expensive house. Send your kids to public schools and good state colleges. Avoid extravagant vacations and luxury automobiles. In short, just live reasonably.

I distinctly recall the reaction of one of my partners when I told him I was checking out: “I’m so jealous. I could never afford that.” The guy was probably making double what I was at the time - if I had to guess, I’d say between $1.5 and $2 million - and after taxes, mandatory retirement and capital contributions, health insurance, etc. he probably took home half of that. He had a $4 million house, a beach house, three and kids enrolled in top DC privates since kindergarten. My understanding from social media is that the kids ended up in colleges of the Tulane/NYU/Emory variety. If that’s the life you’re going to choose, it’s going to cost you. It’s that simple.


Curious how old you were when you retired and what your finances looked like when you made the decision? I am in BL and am looking for an early retirement (still have a ways to go as 39), but interested in hearing stories!
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 14:16     Subject: Re:The golden handcuffs of biglaw
This is a financial planning issue. Where do you want to be financially next year, in 5 years, at retirement? Project your likely annual expenses at those points in time, and you'll know what level of income you need to meet those expenses. In short, you need target numbers for income and investments before you can determine if you need to continue in your current job and, if you do, for how long.

Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 13:35     Subject: The golden handcuffs of biglaw
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:You have to realize that your life does not actually require that income. If you don't believe it, create an artificial experiment and live on your alternative salary for a year while socking away the rest in investments. You may be surprised.

Also, when you look at salaries for in house positions, what you don't see are the bonuses and value of stock options and that you aren't paying self-employment and benefits. In house, we have a base salary in the 300 range, but pay taxes on over 800. That may sound like 'not enough' to you, but we have kids full pay in private schools and colleges too. We have more than anyone needs. If you cannot accept that as truth, then the problem is your relationship with money, not your golden handcuffs. You hold the key to those cuffs.


Not according to most salary surveys (maybe in tech on the West Coast or in NYC - but not DC). Base and bonus in the 300s is more likely reality for mid-level in-house counsel in the DC area. GCs do have base salaries in the mid-to-high-300s, but they also get $100k+ bonuses and multiple 6-figure stock grants that vest every year. Your average BIGLAW refugee will not be able to just waltz into a comparable-paying role in house (they're going to take a haircut of some size)


We live in DC. You don't start there, but you get there. None of that was the point of my post, however. When we both left Big law partnerships, our base HHI was cut in half, but we had savings and it was still more than enough to live on and now it is multiples of that. We never bought into the Golden Handcuffs. You just have to decide what is most important to the life you want to live.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 13:30     Subject: Re:The golden handcuffs of biglaw
Anonymous wrote:I started in biglaw when DH was making pretty lousy money after his grad degree (2001 grad - they all got thrashed in the hiring market; a lot never made it up).

We stayed in our shitty student apartment for a couple years, which we could afford on his $60k salary. I started at $125k - paid off all our debt within a year (I come from a country where student debt doesn't exist, so I just couldn't deal with it psychologically).

Bought a house below our means. Have traded up a couple times but currently in a house we paid $1m for, and our combined income is $1.5m (DH ended up doing very well). Kid in public school. We did upgrade our cars recently to pretty nice Audis, but we keep our cars for 10+ years, so not a huge difference on our income to get $30k cars vs $60k cars, when amortized over that period.

Because DH and I both earn good money, like another poster said, it's a huge pressure valve and both of us feel like we could tell our employers to f*** off whenever we wanted. Strangely, we both love our jobs. Both work full time from home, so have a lot of time with kid. Decided to only have one kid, to make the dual working thing more manageable (which it is).

Could quit any day - already have enough savings in mid 40s to retire.

I mean, this is a pretty easy thing to figure out. DOn't adjust your expenses like your fanciest colleagues. Lots of law firm partners live pretty reasonable lives in DC. Yes, some blow the bank of material stuff. But lots don't. Until 2005, DC law firm patterns weren't exactly killing it - they were living in pretty standard houses in Bethesda with kids in public - much like govt workers of days yore. It's only been the last 15 years that partners in DC are making bank. You got caught up in that, and if you want to walk, you need to dial it back. Spouse goes back to work, kids in public. Easy as that.

(but with all that said, like another PP, I actually think most in-house jobs have the same if not longer hours than big law these days - and most of our clients are not working from home anymore).


What does your DH do? Maybe Op spouse could follow that career path (or me!)
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 13:26     Subject: The golden handcuffs of biglaw
Anonymous wrote:Just think that you could be diagnosed with cancer or have a heart attack tomorrow. Because you could. Then make decisions based on that.


Oddly, that makes me want to earn big money longer to help setup my family.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 13:20     Subject: The golden handcuffs of biglaw
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My spouse is a big law partner. We send our kids to public school and have a house that is in the cheaper area of bethesda (oxymoron) and mostly live like UMC people — nothing designer, our house is super outdated, our cars are heaters, kids don’t go to those expensive sleepaway camps, etc. we do splurge on vacations because he is so overworked that he wants vacations just to be as easy as possible. I think you need to make decisions about where to spend your money to keep your sanity.

We have a ton saved up because he has always wanted to quit but for him the golden handcuffs has really been finding something that is equally prestigious and would not require moving cross country. At a certain point it becomes hard to off ramp because you are so senior no one wants to hire you for a regular old job. He now has sort of a plan of trying to retire at 55 and get a job with a non-profit. We’ll see if that happens.


Please ask him to consider joining DOJ. It's challenging, fun, an important work IME, and there are also many prestigious offices too.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 13:18     Subject: The golden handcuffs of biglaw
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Figure out how to reduce your fixed expenses. DH and I both started biglaw at the same time but we bought an inexpensive house, boring cars, just did our best to keep our expenses in a range that let either of us quit or get fired. And ironically I think that kept our mental health in check sufficiently to actually stick it out until promotion.


Yeah, I mean you are an idiot if you went into BigLaw without recognizing that you were likely to hate it. Most do. So you don't spend BigLaw money. You tough it out for a few years so you can pay off law school debt, save for a house down payment, etc. Then you leave and you can do that because you spent like a normal person but for things like paying down loans. If you went into it thinking you'd stay your whole career, well, you are not very smart.


Well in our case it did work out that we both got “whole career” promotions. Anyway. Obviously OP isn’t expecting that.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 13:18     Subject: The golden handcuffs of biglaw
Anonymous wrote:My spouse is a big law partner. We send our kids to public school and have a house that is in the cheaper area of bethesda (oxymoron) and mostly live like UMC people — nothing designer, our house is super outdated, our cars are heaters, kids don’t go to those expensive sleepaway camps, etc. we do splurge on vacations because he is so overworked that he wants vacations just to be as easy as possible. I think you need to make decisions about where to spend your money to keep your sanity.

We have a ton saved up because he has always wanted to quit but for him the golden handcuffs has really been finding something that is equally prestigious and would not require moving cross country. At a certain point it becomes hard to off ramp because you are so senior no one wants to hire you for a regular old job. He now has sort of a plan of trying to retire at 55 and get a job with a non-profit. We’ll see if that happens.


In this scenario do you have a job?

Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 13:14     Subject: The golden handcuffs of biglaw
Anonymous wrote:Figure out how to reduce your fixed expenses. DH and I both started biglaw at the same time but we bought an inexpensive house, boring cars, just did our best to keep our expenses in a range that let either of us quit or get fired. And ironically I think that kept our mental health in check sufficiently to actually stick it out until promotion.


Yeah, I mean you are an idiot if you went into BigLaw without recognizing that you were likely to hate it. Most do. So you don't spend BigLaw money. You tough it out for a few years so you can pay off law school debt, save for a house down payment, etc. Then you leave and you can do that because you spent like a normal person but for things like paying down loans. If you went into it thinking you'd stay your whole career, well, you are not very smart.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 13:13     Subject: The golden handcuffs of biglaw
Anonymous wrote:My spouse is a big law partner. We send our kids to public school and have a house that is in the cheaper area of bethesda (oxymoron) and mostly live like UMC people — nothing designer, our house is super outdated, our cars are heaters, kids don’t go to those expensive sleepaway camps, etc. we do splurge on vacations because he is so overworked that he wants vacations just to be as easy as possible. I think you need to make decisions about where to spend your money to keep your sanity.

We have a ton saved up because he has always wanted to quit but for him the golden handcuffs has really been finding something that is equally prestigious and would not require moving cross country. At a certain point it becomes hard to off ramp because you are so senior no one wants to hire you for a regular old job. He now has sort of a plan of trying to retire at 55 and get a job with a non-profit. We’ll see if that happens.

Why does your spouse feel that he needs an “equally prestigious” job in order to leave Biglaw? Who does he feel he needs to impress?
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 13:12     Subject: The golden handcuffs of biglaw
Anonymous wrote:I hear you, PP, and what you’re saying mostly sounds good. But only have one kid so you can both work is pretty sad.


I'm the PP you're responding to, I was home for 2 years with DS and I didn't enjoy that time. I would have been a very very unhappy sahm - 2 kids or otherwise. I really like my job. So I actually think "having one kid so I can work" is wonderful for me because I literally have it all. Not sad at all.
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 13:07     Subject: The golden handcuffs of biglaw
Anonymous wrote:You have to realize that your life does not actually require that income. If you don't believe it, create an artificial experiment and live on your alternative salary for a year while socking away the rest in investments. You may be surprised.

Also, when you look at salaries for in house positions, what you don't see are the bonuses and value of stock options and that you aren't paying self-employment and benefits. In house, we have a base salary in the 300 range, but pay taxes on over 800. That may sound like 'not enough' to you, but we have kids full pay in private schools and colleges too. We have more than anyone needs. If you cannot accept that as truth, then the problem is your relationship with money, not your golden handcuffs. You hold the key to those cuffs.


Not according to most salary surveys (maybe in tech on the West Coast or in NYC - but not DC). Base and bonus in the 300s is more likely reality for mid-level in-house counsel in the DC area. GCs do have base salaries in the mid-to-high-300s, but they also get $100k+ bonuses and multiple 6-figure stock grants that vest every year. Your average BIGLAW refugee will not be able to just waltz into a comparable-paying role in house (they're going to take a haircut of some size)
Anonymous
Post 02/05/2023 13:00     Subject: The golden handcuffs of biglaw
I uncuffed. It took a year. When I left big law I had two car loans, two expensive preschool tuitions, a big mortgage, a dog walker, a cleaner, and was used to ordering or buying whatever I wanted whenever I wanted. You need to retrain yourself because if you can’t live comfortably on $300-350 (two gov or in house jobs) it’s a you problem. So over a year I paid off the cars, transferred youngest to an in home daycare (oldest started public), refinanced mortgage, stopped buying stuff I didn’t need, did without the service people (eventually added back monthly cleaning), started grocery shopping at Aldi, was just more careful and thoughtful about money. My husband and I even had a $20 Christmas gift rule for each other but you know what it forced us to be really thoughtful and I still use that gift all the time and love it. Do I miss the money? Of course. We want to redo our kitchen and it will take another 3 years of saving. But I’m happy. I look better. I feel better. I’m a better mom and wife and person. Good luck.