Anonymous wrote:I don't why anyone would want to take Precalculus as a terminal math class for a college degree. The name itself tells you why it's a bad idea! *Pre*calculus without calculus is useless trivia for the non-STEM major.

A better math class would be a non-calculus Statistics class, or computer programming or economics if that counts, or a Math for Liberal Arts class.

For some kids, Precalculus is their terminal class in high school but they may go on (or at least have the option to go on) to some type of calculus in college. In addition, some community and state college systems used to have math proficiency tests that incoming freshmen would have to pass to enroll. For these kids, high school Precalculus could help them pass the proficiency test so it had some use even if they did not take further math afterwards. Now, however, community and state colleges are watering down or dropping math proficiency tests altogether because so many kids were failing the tests and they didn't want to disenroll huge numbers of kids. As incoming proficiency tests are watered down, the incentive to take high school Precalculus will go down as well for some kids. Some colleges are now shifting to quantitative reasoning proficiency tests which kids have an easier time passing even if their traditional math skills are poor.

I don't why anyone would want to take Precalculus as a terminal math class for a college degree. The name itself tells you why it's a bad idea! *Pre*calculus without calculus is useless trivia for the non-STEM major.

A better math class would be a non-calculus Statistics class, or computer programming or economics if that counts, or a Math for Liberal Arts class.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP Precalculus is unique from all other APs because Precalculus is not a college-level class. Michele Breen, Math Department Head, says, “Typically, AP classes are for college credit. Precalculus is a senior-level course so it is a new thing for the College Board to offer a non college-level class as an AP”.

The College Board says the goal of the new AP Precalculus course is to prepare a much broader group of students to thrive in college math courses by giving them an opportunity to take a class at the college-level intensity in high school, regardless of where they start in high school math.

What a bunch of BS. Are they going to start offering AP English 9 & 10. Sick of the money grab!

I would welcome AP English 9 and 10--the "honors" English classes are so diluted. It would be nice to have a challenge.

These already exist as "Pre-AP" courses. The curriculum is purchased by the district, so no year end test to pay for by the kids.

Algebra 1
Algebra 2
Geometry with Statistics
Biology
Chemistry
English 1
English 2
World History and Geography
Visual and Performing Arts

https://pre-ap.collegeboard.org/courses/descriptions

Thanks, good to know. However, wouldn't the lack of an exam undercut the effectiveness? Without an exam, there would be less urgency to cover everything if the class gets bogged down somewhere. Also, how do you know how well material was covered without an externally scored, standardized exam? The latter is a big reason why APs are attractive.

No, the kids still take standard assessments, but they don't pay for them... (and they aren't for college credit.) This program was meant to diversify the kids who are prepared to take actual AP courses and provide curricular support for schools who might need it.

Good resources to have. Do the standard assessments get scored by their teacher or by an external grader like the actual APs?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP Precalculus is unique from all other APs because Precalculus is not a college-level class. Michele Breen, Math Department Head, says, “Typically, AP classes are for college credit. Precalculus is a senior-level course so it is a new thing for the College Board to offer a non college-level class as an AP”.

The College Board says the goal of the new AP Precalculus course is to prepare a much broader group of students to thrive in college math courses by giving them an opportunity to take a class at the college-level intensity in high school, regardless of where they start in high school math.

What a bunch of BS. Are they going to start offering AP English 9 & 10. Sick of the money grab!

I would welcome AP English 9 and 10--the "honors" English classes are so diluted. It would be nice to have a challenge.

These already exist as "Pre-AP" courses. The curriculum is purchased by the district, so no year end test to pay for by the kids.

Algebra 1
Algebra 2
Geometry with Statistics
Biology
Chemistry
English 1
English 2
World History and Geography
Visual and Performing Arts

https://pre-ap.collegeboard.org/courses/descriptions

Thanks, good to know. However, wouldn't the lack of an exam undercut the effectiveness? Without an exam, there would be less urgency to cover everything if the class gets bogged down somewhere. Also, how do you know how well material was covered without an externally scored, standardized exam? The latter is a big reason why APs are attractive.

No, the kids still take standard assessments, but they don't pay for them... (and they aren't for college credit.) This program was meant to diversify the kids who are prepared to take actual AP courses and provide curricular support for schools who might need it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP Precalculus would not get credit for any math/science major in a 4-year college.
Precalculus is high school level, a remedial math in college.
It might be useful for an associates degree or to fulfill a gen ed math requirement for a community college or a low or mid tier college's non-science major.

It might be useful if you believe that your dream college doesn't trust MCPS to give an honest grade in the high school class.

AP Physics I (non-calculus version) is similar.

I'd look for what colleges say about it before dumping more. $$ into College Board.

AP Precalculus would be a great class for students who do not intend to major in a STEM field or a major that would require calculus. College algebra is offered at the vast majority of 4-year colleges and is generally the highest math class that humanities/social science/etc. would need to take (except maybe stats). Giving those kids a chance to get their math requirements finished in high school seems awesome to me.

It is a great option for non-STEM, non-calculus kids. The concern is that districts may be recommending AP Precalculus for STEM & calculus kids. While AP Precalculus would be a good swap for regular Precalculus, it's not a good swap for Honors Calculus which presently prepares kids for AP Calculus BC.

Anonymous wrote:AP Precalculus would not get credit for any math/science major in a 4-year college.
Precalculus is high school level, a remedial math in college.
It might be useful for an associates degree or to fulfill a gen ed math requirement for a community college or a low or mid tier college's non-science major.

It might be useful if you believe that your dream college doesn't trust MCPS to give an honest grade in the high school class.

AP Physics I (non-calculus version) is similar.

I'd look for what colleges say about it before dumping more. $$ into College Board.

AP Precalculus would be a great class for students who do not intend to major in a STEM field or a major that would require calculus. College algebra is offered at the vast majority of 4-year colleges and is generally the highest math class that humanities/social science/etc. would need to take (except maybe stats). Giving those kids a chance to get their math requirements finished in high school seems awesome to me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The College Board says the goal of the new AP Precalculus course is to prepare a much broader group of students to thrive in college math courses by giving them an opportunity to take a class at the college-level intensity in high school, regardless of where they start in high school math.

But there won't be college level intensity given 50% minimums, the expectation of ongoing retesting, skewed semester grade calculations favoring higher grades, restrictions on the number of assignments and their point values, no consequences for missing many classes...

LOL! Exactly!

We are at Churchill and I don't see AP Precalculus as even an option. We have regular and Hon levels only. Maybe this is offered at only specific high schools?

Anonymous wrote:AP Precalculus would not get credit for any math/science major in a 4-year college.
Precalculus is high school level, a remedial math in college.
It might be useful for an associates degree or to fulfill a gen ed math requirement for a community college or a low or mid tier college's non-science major.

It might be useful if you believe that your dream college doesn't trust MCPS to give an honest grade in the high school class.

AP Physics I (non-calculus version) is similar.

I'd look for what colleges say about it before dumping more. $$ into College Board.

Yes. AP Precalculus does not make much sense for kids who will take calculus in high school. Their colleges may not give credit for non-college level courses and in any case, they have the chance to get real college credit the next year after they take AP Calculus. In contrast, AP Precalculus does make sense for kids taking 9th grade Algebra 1. They may receive college credit for Precalculus depending on what college they attend which could fulfill their distributional requirements if they don't intend to major in STEM. That was the whole point of why AP Precalculus was created - to give kids who don't take high school calculus some way to demonstrate their math proficiency. Those are the kids that districts should be putting into AP Precalculus, not kids who need rigorous preparation for calculus.

Anonymous wrote:Which schools are offering it? It doesn't show up in the MCPS course listings for 2023-24. https://coursebulletin.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/CourseLists/Index/234/#Mathematics_Courses

I'd like to know the answer to this too. A new course being offered for the first time in MCPS is typically piloted by a small number of schools before being added to the general course bulletin. Also, the course description is submitted to the BOE for approval.

Anonymous wrote:AP Precalculus would not get credit for any math/science major in a 4-year college.
Precalculus is high school level, a remedial math in college.
It might be useful for an associates degree or to fulfill a gen ed math requirement for a community college or a low or mid tier college's non-science major.

It might be useful if you believe that your dream college doesn't trust MCPS to give an honest grade in the high school class.

AP Physics I (non-calculus version) is similar.

I'd look for what colleges say about it before dumping more. $$ into College Board.

Agreed but students may not have a choice depending on what districts do. Say a district currently offers regular and honors Precalculus. AP Precalculus comes along. Do districts now offer three categories of Precalculus courses? Maybe not, given teacher shortages. Instead, districts might consider replacing either regular or honors Precalculus with AP Precalculus. While it would make more sense to swap regular Precalculus and AP Precalculus from a content standpoint, districts may choose to swap honors Precalculus with AP Precalculus instead as a way of moving (inconspicuously) toward more heterogenous math classes. The latter outcome would leave students who want to take high school calculus in a bind -- they would only have the choice of regular or AP Precalculus, neither of which provides great preparation for BC calculus. Districts might try to pack in additional coverage at the end of the AP course to make up the difference, but hard to know if that would work, particularly if non-calculus bound students (the cohort for whom AP Precalculus was originally created) are in the AP class.

A prior PP said their school is advising strong students to take AP Precalculus. That suggests that their school may ultimately gravitate toward the latter outcome.

AP Precalculus would not get credit for any math/science major in a 4-year college.
Precalculus is high school level, a remedial math in college.
It might be useful for an associates degree or to fulfill a gen ed math requirement for a community college or a low or mid tier college's non-science major.

It might be useful if you believe that your dream college doesn't trust MCPS to give an honest grade in the high school class.

AP Physics I (non-calculus version) is similar.

I'd look for what colleges say about it before dumping more. $$ into College Board.

Anonymous wrote:DD is in Honors Algebra II, and her teacher told all of the A students that they should register for this new AP PreCalc. FWIW

But it also wasn’t listed as an option yet when she picked classes before the break, so the kids have to go see the counselor once it’s added.

Districts may well want to replace honors Precalculus with AP Precalculus. However, is that because they think students benefit from having an additional AP score on their record or is it a way of making upper level math classes more heterogenous by lowering the rigor of honors courses? It would be hard to see how the AP Precalculus curriculum would prepare kids well for BC Calculus.

DD is in Honors Algebra II, and her teacher told all of the A students that they should register for this new AP PreCalc. FWIW

But it also wasn’t listed as an option yet when she picked classes before the break, so the kids have to go see the counselor once it’s added.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:AP Precalculus is unique from all other APs because Precalculus is not a college-level class. Michele Breen, Math Department Head, says, “Typically, AP classes are for college credit. Precalculus is a senior-level course so it is a new thing for the College Board to offer a non college-level class as an AP”.

The College Board says the goal of the new AP Precalculus course is to prepare a much broader group of students to thrive in college math courses by giving them an opportunity to take a class at the college-level intensity in high school, regardless of where they start in high school math.

What a bunch of BS. Are they going to start offering AP English 9 & 10. Sick of the money grab!

I would welcome AP English 9 and 10--the "honors" English classes are so diluted. It would be nice to have a challenge.

These already exist as "Pre-AP" courses. The curriculum is purchased by the district, so no year end test to pay for by the kids.

Algebra 1
Algebra 2
Geometry with Statistics
Biology
Chemistry
English 1
English 2
World History and Geography
Visual and Performing Arts

https://pre-ap.collegeboard.org/courses/descriptions

Thanks, good to know. However, wouldn't the lack of an exam undercut the effectiveness? Without an exam, there would be less urgency to cover everything if the class gets bogged down somewhere. Also, how do you know how well material was covered without an externally scored, standardized exam? The latter is a big reason why APs are attractive.

PP again. I understand they provide districts with an exam but it is optional and appears to be scored locally. Is that right? Having a test be sent off for centralized, external grading is an important element.