Anonymous
12/13/2022 11:56
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I thought that, at least at need-blind/meet-full-need schools, you can turn down ED only if the school doesn’t meet your demonstrated need. So, the onus is on the student/family to do the research to understand what they are likely to get based on demonstrated need.
Obviously it’s all honor system, but in terms of the agreement students, parents, and counselors are signing, isn’t the “out” for ED based on demonstrated need?
The definition of "demonstrated need" is what FAFSA says you need. That number is often very different than what a family can actually afford---especially UMC families. So it is more challenging for a UMC family to apply ED. You cannot simply back out because you say "I can't afford it" if FAFSA says you are full pay
This is not true.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 11:55
Subject: Re:“ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The thing you cannot do is compare FA offers.
But yes, you are right that it is not true the ED does not allow you to apply for FA and that admission should come with a guarantee of coverage for need.
This, and for kids who in particular want to compare merit offers, it is a non starter.
And kids who need merit aid and receive none with an ED acceptance are locked into a school they can't pay for, for which reason they cannot apply ED.
So you know that going in and if you fall into that category, do NOT apply ED. If FAFSA says you can pay $75K/year and you can't, then you should not ED as they have no reason to give any merit (and quite frankly most T50 schools do not give much merit--there are a few that do, but not many)
Anonymous
12/13/2022 11:53
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:I thought that, at least at need-blind/meet-full-need schools, you can turn down ED only if the school doesn’t meet your demonstrated need. So, the onus is on the student/family to do the research to understand what they are likely to get based on demonstrated need.
Obviously it’s all honor system, but in terms of the agreement students, parents, and counselors are signing, isn’t the “out” for ED based on demonstrated need?
The definition of "demonstrated need" is what FAFSA says you need. That number is often very different than what a family can actually afford---especially UMC families. So it is more challenging for a UMC family to apply ED. You cannot simply back out because you say "I can't afford it" if FAFSA says you are full pay
Anonymous
12/13/2022 11:50
Subject: Re:“ED is to locked down full payers”
Lots of people need merit aid.
Not of schools aren’t giving need-based aid that fills the hole — and not just relevant for those who didn’t save enough. There is a thing as the missing middle that is a big issue in college apps.
These kids are disadvantaged enough in the process. And often skipping ED is just another disadvantage. We should make it easier for these kids -not harder.
Not of schools aren’t giving need-based aid that fills the hole — and not just relevant for those who didn’t save enough. There is a thing as the missing middle that is a big issue in college apps.
These kids are disadvantaged enough in the process. And often skipping ED is just another disadvantage. We should make it easier for these kids -not harder.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 11:27
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Why do so many posters think this? In my kid’s friends group, everyone doing ED at a selective school is looking for financial aid. The thought process is that (1) ED typically has higher admit rates and (2) you can withdraw if you don’t like the package.
Are people implying need blind schools reject FA kids at higher rates during ED? Or do they not realize ED agreements allowing you to back out of the school can met a family’s need?
Because merit scholarships to those that don't qualify for need-based aid are a thing - and useful for comparing schools. Thus a student may have no "demonstrated need" according to FAFSA but would prefer not to spend $80K a year or whatever list price is for a school.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 11:22
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The only reason there is a higher admit rate is because the school is taking the kids they absolutely want - the athletes, the desired URM, the key legacy/donors.
The average middle class/upper middle class white applicant does not actually stand a better chance in ED.
This is not true at most ED schools. In the book The Early Admissions Game it was found to give a an average boost of 150 SAT points to unhooked students - and yes they had the data.
https://books.google.com.gi/books?id=XTfSQ-DOaDcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
I don't understand this thread at all. Why not:
- Run the NPC
- If you can afford and it is your first choice, apply ED
- If the offer does not match the NPC. you have an easy exit from YOUR COMITTMENT.
Why is it not that simple?
All this talk of legal tests and being able to break your word without legal penalty to you (but certainly other penalty to your school and future graduates of it) is baffling, unnecessary, and quite frankly, immoral.
I am not a poster you mention but I think where this post derailed is the OP's original suggestion that "you can withdraw if you don’t like the package." Maybe that is saying the same thing you did but it seemed to me to imply a lot more wiggle room but that could simply be my bad take and not what the poster is implying. Bottom line, if the school hits the NPC, aren't you on the hook?
It's like any other contract, you're on the hook to the extent that the school is willing to enforce the contract. No school has ever risked it because it's bad business to trying an enforce and unenforceable contract.
Yes and a lot of stores don’t prosecute small time shoplifters either, so why should you pay for that lipstick?
Anonymous
12/13/2022 10:46
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The only reason there is a higher admit rate is because the school is taking the kids they absolutely want - the athletes, the desired URM, the key legacy/donors.
The average middle class/upper middle class white applicant does not actually stand a better chance in ED.
This is not true at most ED schools. In the book The Early Admissions Game it was found to give a an average boost of 150 SAT points to unhooked students - and yes they had the data.
https://books.google.com.gi/books?id=XTfSQ-DOaDcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
I don't understand this thread at all. Why not:
- Run the NPC
- If you can afford and it is your first choice, apply ED
- If the offer does not match the NPC. you have an easy exit from YOUR COMITTMENT.
Why is it not that simple?
All this talk of legal tests and being able to break your word without legal penalty to you (but certainly other penalty to your school and future graduates of it) is baffling, unnecessary, and quite frankly, immoral.
I am not a poster you mention but I think where this post derailed is the OP's original suggestion that "you can withdraw if you don’t like the package." Maybe that is saying the same thing you did but it seemed to me to imply a lot more wiggle room but that could simply be my bad take and not what the poster is implying. Bottom line, if the school hits the NPC, aren't you on the hook?
The answer, according to at least some FA offices, is no. I think a lot of that may come down to the fact that people can and do make mistakes while using the NPC.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 10:31
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Very few schools are completely need blind.
+1
Also, ED is not an option for those who need merit aid to attend, i.e. those who neither qualify for need-based aid nor can pay full freight.
Not true. Many schools will give you a merit pre-read prior to applying for early decision. You just have to provide unofficial transcripts and ECs. We did this a couple months ago at a T50 school.
Some schools (e.g. Oberlin) will do this, most will not. WashU and URochester for example tell people in their admissions info sessions that if they need merit money to attend, they should not apply ED.
This is not discriminatory ... why?
Anonymous
12/13/2022 10:30
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:The only reason there is a higher admit rate is because the school is taking the kids they absolutely want - the athletes, the desired URM, the key legacy/donors.
The average middle class/upper middle class white applicant does not actually stand a better chance in ED.
This is not true at most ED schools. In the book The Early Admissions Game it was found to give a an average boost of 150 SAT points to unhooked students - and yes they had the data.
https://books.google.com.gi/books?id=XTfSQ-DOaDcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
I don't understand this thread at all. Why not:
- Run the NPC
- If you can afford and it is your first choice, apply ED
- If the offer does not match the NPC. you have an easy exit from YOUR COMITTMENT.
Why is it not that simple?
All this talk of legal tests and being able to break your word without legal penalty to you (but certainly other penalty to your school and future graduates of it) is baffling, unnecessary, and quite frankly, immoral.
I am not a poster you mention but I think where this post derailed is the OP's original suggestion that "you can withdraw if you don’t like the package." Maybe that is saying the same thing you did but it seemed to me to imply a lot more wiggle room but that could simply be my bad take and not what the poster is implying. Bottom line, if the school hits the NPC, aren't you on the hook?
It's like any other contract, you're on the hook to the extent that the school is willing to enforce the contract. No school has ever risked it because it's bad business to trying an enforce and unenforceable contract.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 10:30
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Very few schools are completely need blind.
+1
Also, ED is not an option for those who need merit aid to attend, i.e. those who neither qualify for need-based aid nor can pay full freight.
Merit aid families often have the money to pay, at least for a state school but the parents choose to spend their money in other ways expecting help for college. It's pretty shocking ot see families making $250+ having such high expectations for aid. Schools should base it on need.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 10:26
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Very few schools are completely need blind.
+1
Also, ED is not an option for those who need merit aid to attend, i.e. those who neither qualify for need-based aid nor can pay full freight.
Not true. Many schools will give you a merit pre-read prior to applying for early decision. You just have to provide unofficial transcripts and ECs. We did this a couple months ago at a T50 school.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 10:22
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:The only reason there is a higher admit rate is because the school is taking the kids they absolutely want - the athletes, the desired URM, the key legacy/donors.
The average middle class/upper middle class white applicant does not actually stand a better chance in ED.
This is not true at most ED schools. In the book The Early Admissions Game it was found to give a an average boost of 150 SAT points to unhooked students - and yes they had the data.
https://books.google.com.gi/books?id=XTfSQ-DOaDcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
I don't understand this thread at all. Why not:
- Run the NPC
- If you can afford and it is your first choice, apply ED
- If the offer does not match the NPC. you have an easy exit from YOUR COMITTMENT.
Why is it not that simple?
All this talk of legal tests and being able to break your word without legal penalty to you (but certainly other penalty to your school and future graduates of it) is baffling, unnecessary, and quite frankly, immoral.
I am not a poster you mention but I think where this post derailed is the OP's original suggestion that "you can withdraw if you don’t like the package." Maybe that is saying the same thing you did but it seemed to me to imply a lot more wiggle room but that could simply be my bad take and not what the poster is implying. Bottom line, if the school hits the NPC, aren't you on the hook?
Anonymous
12/13/2022 10:18
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:The only reason there is a higher admit rate is because the school is taking the kids they absolutely want - the athletes, the desired URM, the key legacy/donors.
The average middle class/upper middle class white applicant does not actually stand a better chance in ED.
This is not true at most ED schools. In the book The Early Admissions Game it was found to give a an average boost of 150 SAT points to unhooked students - and yes they had the data.
https://books.google.com.gi/books?id=XTfSQ-DOaDcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
I don't understand this thread at all. Why not:
- Run the NPC
- If you can afford and it is your first choice, apply ED
- If the offer does not match the NPC. you have an easy exit from YOUR COMITTMENT.
Why is it not that simple?
All this talk of legal tests and being able to break your word without legal penalty to you (but certainly other penalty to your school and future graduates of it) is baffling, unnecessary, and quite frankly, immoral.
I am the OP and that was my understanding as well. But I wanted to better understand the repeated statement that ED is for full pay only.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 10:09
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
The only reason there is a higher admit rate is because the school is taking the kids they absolutely want - the athletes, the desired URM, the key legacy/donors.
The average middle class/upper middle class white applicant does not actually stand a better chance in ED.
This is not true at most ED schools. In the book The Early Admissions Game it was found to give a an average boost of 150 SAT points to unhooked students - and yes they had the data.
https://books.google.com.gi/books?id=XTfSQ-DOaDcC&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false
I don't understand this thread at all. Why not:
- Run the NPC
- If you can afford and it is your first choice, apply ED
- If the offer does not match the NPC. you have an easy exit from YOUR COMITTMENT.
Why is it not that simple?
All this talk of legal tests and being able to break your word without legal penalty to you (but certainly other penalty to your school and future graduates of it) is baffling, unnecessary, and quite frankly, immoral.
Anonymous
12/13/2022 09:59
Subject: “ED is to locked down full payers”
Anonymous wrote:Why do so many posters think this? In my kid’s friends group, everyone doing ED at a selective school is looking for financial aid. The thought process is that (1) ED typically has higher admit rates and (2) you can withdraw if you don’t like the package.
Are people implying need blind schools reject FA kids at higher rates during ED? Or do they not realize ED agreements allowing you to back out of the school can met a family’s need?
The only reason there is a higher admit rate is because the school is taking the kids they absolutely want - the athletes, the desired URM, the key legacy/donors.
The average middle class/upper middle class white applicant does not actually stand a better chance in ED.