Anonymous
12/02/2022 21:30
Subject: What are the best law schools that give merit aid?
Can you not google? It isn’t hard to find. Here is the page for my alma mater: https://law.vanderbilt.edu/prospective-students/costs-financial-aid/scholarship-programs/index.php
Anonymous
12/02/2022 21:20
Subject: What are the best law schools that give merit aid?
Anonymous wrote:I take issue with posters claiming a cause and effect relationship between less demand for law students in the early 2000s and the rise in merit aid. I think, and apparently the law schools dropping out of US news agree, that it’s the pressure to enroll students with sky high LSAT scores to maintain and bring up their ranking that’s led to the bidding war.
The worst example is Wash U. It buys law students more than just about any other top 25 school, and year after year it climbs the rankings. Schools like it are gonna take a hit if the rankings become less important. There’s no way Wash U is as good of a law school as its current ranking would suggest. It’s not Vanderbilt, Texas or UCLA for Pete’s sake. Cut me a break.
I posted this above and I was told this directly by the Dean of a t-14 law school. You should embrace the power of “and.” It is true that the rankings are everything, and it is also true that the lower number of students applying meant there were fewer applicants with high stats and that led to bidding wars. In fact, for example, the first year this happened, Georgetown took the same number of students as before and dropped out of the top 14 because they had to lower their standards to do so. That year, Texas cut the size of their entering class and moved up. After that, all schools started competing for the top students. Last year was a record year for applicants to law schools, so it remains to be seen whether this will still be true, or at least to same degree.
I doubt the rankings will become less important. USNWR has other sources for data and as long as the numbers still matter, I think the t-3 through t-20 schools will continue to see the top three refusing to join the race as an opportunity.
Anonymous
12/02/2022 20:57
Subject: What are the best law schools that give merit aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Interesting that they got into a bidding war. Yet Imsaw on r/lawschooladmissions that a candidate had her offer rescinded when she tried to negotiate with UCLA for better merit aid.Anonymous wrote:
A top law school will provide merit for a kid with top LSAT scores. I've helped my law school recruit top students and have seen law schools basically get into a bidding war over the amount of aid available.
The T14 don’t do this. Less elite schools will pay for a high GPA or LSAT but the top don’t because they don’t have to.
Maybe 20 years ago, but they do now. Maybe not Harvard and Yale, but Harvard cited the practice as a reason it was pulling out of the USNWR rankings (meaning its competitors are doing it and they were feeling the pressure to do it, too).
https://hls.harvard.edu/today/decision-to-withdraw-from-the-u-s-news-world-report-process/
Second, by heavily weighting students’ test scores and college grades, the U.S. News rankings have over the years created incentives for law schools to direct more financial aid toward applicants based on their LSAT scores and college GPAs without regard to their financial need. Though HLS and YLS have each resisted the pull toward so-called merit aid, it has become increasingly prevalent, absorbing scarce resources that could be allocated more directly on the basis of need.
That’s not what Dean Manning is saying at all (your claim that he addressed merit aid). Merit aid is given at the beginning of the law school career (and hopefully continued for the next two years to offset tuition. . What Dean Manning and the Yale Dean are referring to is their objections as to how USNWR calculated Harvard’s own financing of student careers in low-income public service careers -after they graduate. Harvard Law does not give merit aid.
As to the second point, yes, some of the lower ranked schools have given merit aid in exchange for high lsat and GPAs. But Harvard does not
Nope. Harvard doesn't give merit aid. You could google:
HLS does not award “merit” or “full-ride” scholarships (which typically are not need-based) because doing so would decrease the resources available for need-based aid, and significantly increase the debt burden of every financially needy student.
The Need-Based Aid Philosophy - Harvard Law School
I hope you didn’t go to law school, because your reading comprehension is lousy. No one said Harvard gives merit aid.
I did go to law school snd my reading comprehension is fine. Dean Manning (and the Yale Dean) is referring to merit aid given by OTHER law schools like Scalia/GMU in order to lure top stats kids so that GMU can report those stats to USNWR. The lower ranked schools are buying high GPAs and test scores. Manning is saying that is a wrong result and one if the reasons that Harvard, Yale and the others are pulling out of data supply to USNWR.
Anonymous
12/02/2022 13:30
Subject: Re:What are the best law schools that give merit aid?
Anonymous wrote:Whatever he does, don’t take out large loans for a third tier law school. If he can go to a tip law school, he should be able to pay off his loans easily.
This isn't necessarily true. If he works for a law firm after going to a top tier school, sure, but a lot of public interest jobs that are very competitive do not pay enough to pay down the full cost of law school in loans. PSLF is an option but that is a long ten years and for many people, esp folks who work before going to law school, encompasses their prime years for starting a family, buying a house, etc... all things that giant six figure debt can make harder/more anxiety provoking. I would advise people to think about what they want to do after law school and be realistic about the starting salaries and what loan payments look like.
Anonymous
12/02/2022 13:25
Subject: What are the best law schools that give merit aid?
I take issue with posters claiming a cause and effect relationship between less demand for law students in the early 2000s and the rise in merit aid. I think, and apparently the law schools dropping out of US news agree, that it’s the pressure to enroll students with sky high LSAT scores to maintain and bring up their ranking that’s led to the bidding war.
The worst example is Wash U. It buys law students more than just about any other top 25 school, and year after year it climbs the rankings. Schools like it are gonna take a hit if the rankings become less important. There’s no way Wash U is as good of a law school as its current ranking would suggest. It’s not Vanderbilt, Texas or UCLA for Pete’s sake. Cut me a break.
The worst example is Wash U. It buys law students more than just about any other top 25 school, and year after year it climbs the rankings. Schools like it are gonna take a hit if the rankings become less important. There’s no way Wash U is as good of a law school as its current ranking would suggest. It’s not Vanderbilt, Texas or UCLA for Pete’s sake. Cut me a break.
Anonymous
12/02/2022 13:14
Subject: What are the best law schools that give merit aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's unclear what effect the recent actions of Yale & others re: not cooperating with USNWR will have on this, but, in the past, law schools have been very sensitive to rankings & compete for the highest GPAs & LSAT scores. It's not like undergraduate where you only get merit for schools that are lower ranked than the schools you're qualified for.
A top law school will provide merit for a kid with top LSAT scores. I've helped my law school recruit top students and have seen law schools basically get into a bidding war over the amount of aid available.
FWIW, I think the rankings will continue to matter because USNWR can get the data they need from other sources, and no matter what Yale et al say, they don't want to drop in the rankings.
Interesting. In the early 90s, I had 99th percentile LSAT score and spouse had a perfect Lsat score, we both had graduated undergrad from ivies, and neither of us were offerred merit aid from any law school. We both attended GW, fwiw.
Wow. You both underachieved on the law school front big time. Just sayin’
Anonymous
12/02/2022 13:12
Subject: What are the best law schools that give merit aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Interesting that they got into a bidding war. Yet Imsaw on r/lawschooladmissions that a candidate had her offer rescinded when she tried to negotiate with UCLA for better merit aid.Anonymous wrote:
A top law school will provide merit for a kid with top LSAT scores. I've helped my law school recruit top students and have seen law schools basically get into a bidding war over the amount of aid available.
The T14 don’t do this. Less elite schools will pay for a high GPA or LSAT but the top don’t because they don’t have to.
Maybe 20 years ago, but they do now. Maybe not Harvard and Yale, but Harvard cited the practice as a reason it was pulling out of the USNWR rankings (meaning its competitors are doing it and they were feeling the pressure to do it, too).
https://hls.harvard.edu/today/decision-to-withdraw-from-the-u-s-news-world-report-process/
Second, by heavily weighting students’ test scores and college grades, the U.S. News rankings have over the years created incentives for law schools to direct more financial aid toward applicants based on their LSAT scores and college GPAs without regard to their financial need. Though HLS and YLS have each resisted the pull toward so-called merit aid, it has become increasingly prevalent, absorbing scarce resources that could be allocated more directly on the basis of need.
That’s not what Dean Manning is saying at all (your claim that he addressed merit aid). Merit aid is given at the beginning of the law school career (and hopefully continued for the next two years to offset tuition. . What Dean Manning and the Yale Dean are referring to is their objections as to how USNWR calculated Harvard’s own financing of student careers in low-income public service careers -after they graduate. Harvard Law does not give merit aid.
As to the second point, yes, some of the lower ranked schools have given merit aid in exchange for high lsat and GPAs. But Harvard does not
Nope. Harvard doesn't give merit aid. You could google:
HLS does not award “merit” or “full-ride” scholarships (which typically are not need-based) because doing so would decrease the resources available for need-based aid, and significantly increase the debt burden of every financially needy student.
The Need-Based Aid Philosophy - Harvard Law School
I hope you didn’t go to law school, because your reading comprehension is lousy. No one said Harvard gives merit aid.
Anonymous
12/02/2022 13:09
Subject: What are the best law schools that give merit aid?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Interesting that they got into a bidding war. Yet Imsaw on r/lawschooladmissions that a candidate had her offer rescinded when she tried to negotiate with UCLA for better merit aid.Anonymous wrote:
A top law school will provide merit for a kid with top LSAT scores. I've helped my law school recruit top students and have seen law schools basically get into a bidding war over the amount of aid available.
The T14 don’t do this. Less elite schools will pay for a high GPA or LSAT but the top don’t because they don’t have to.
Maybe 20 years ago, but they do now. Maybe not Harvard and Yale, but Harvard cited the practice as a reason it was pulling out of the USNWR rankings (meaning its competitors are doing it and they were feeling the pressure to do it, too).
https://hls.harvard.edu/today/decision-to-withdraw-from-the-u-s-news-world-report-process/
Second, by heavily weighting students’ test scores and college grades, the U.S. News rankings have over the years created incentives for law schools to direct more financial aid toward applicants based on their LSAT scores and college GPAs without regard to their financial need. Though HLS and YLS have each resisted the pull toward so-called merit aid, it has become increasingly prevalent, absorbing scarce resources that could be allocated more directly on the basis of need.
That’s not what Dean Manning is saying at all (your claim that he addressed merit aid). Merit aid is given at the beginning of the law school career (and hopefully continued for the next two years to offset tuition. . What Dean Manning and the Yale Dean are referring to is their objections as to how USNWR calculated Harvard’s own financing of student careers in low-income public service careers -after they graduate. Harvard Law does not give merit aid.
As to the second point, yes, some of the lower ranked schools have given merit aid in exchange for high lsat and GPAs. But Harvard does not
There’s more than one poster here — I haven’t mentioned Harvard or Manning before. That’s a direct quote from Harvard’s letter, and it specifically says “merit aid.” The argument about after graduation employment is a separate issue. The “second point” (that you agree with) is my entire point — contrary to pp’s flat statement, many (most?) T14 schools give merit aid, and Harvard cited pressure to do so as one reason they’re pulling out of reporting to USNWR.