Congrats to your daughter, but she is one person. Unfortunately, for every student like her, there are 10 or 20 who are not.

Anonymous wrote:OP here. I understand that college is expensive and that everyone wants to make a lot of money. And, I’m not suggesting that everyone should major in anthropology or philosophy. Instead, I am suggesting that students could double major or minor in such a subject or at least take classes in them. To the contrary, what I’m seeing is a kid with an elective opting for yoga, nutrition, etc. based on the perception that it’s easy (which it is) and it fits their schedule (nothing in the morning or on Friday), when they could have chosen a serious class in the humanities or liberal arts. I’d like to see a pre-med, business, or computer science major talk to me about how their Buddhism class influenced their thinking about life or their future profession. Or, how different philosophical viewpoints on love impacted their thinking about relationships.

I don't know what kids you're talking to but I'm the PP who posted her DD is majoring in anthropology and a minor in philosophy. She is at UVA where they are required to take gen eds, and that's how she found herself in an anthropology class, which she was absolutely inspired by. This semester she is taking two religion classes, one anthropology and one philosophy. She loves all these classes, especially the discussion classes that she has for each class. She has many friends in her classes, none of whom are anthropology, religion or philosophy majors. Her business major roommate is finishing up a Buddism class right now.

You are correct that the engineering school kids are not taking these classes, but those in the college of arts and sciences at UVA at least are required to take classes across a broad range of topics, as well as a language (unless they test out) and two intensive writing focused classes. I'm sure you'll all say but what is your DD going to do for work when she graduates, and yeah that is less clear than if she were a CS major or in the comm school but I believe that college is a time to find yourself and find what you love and then figure out where to go from there. She has an internship in the corporate world so at the same time she's getting real world experience and exposure to career options that way.

Conversely, my nephew who was an econ major at a top 20 school (graduated this past spring) absolutely hates his high paying finance job. He went into the field because he knew he'd make alot of money, not because he had a passion for it. He sits in front of a computer screen all day and says its soul sucking. I can't personally imagine spending my life in a job like that no matter what the money is that I bring in.

OP here. I understand that college is expensive and that everyone wants to make a lot of money. And, I’m not suggesting that everyone should major in anthropology or philosophy. Instead, I am suggesting that students could double major or minor in such a subject or at least take classes in them. To the contrary, what I’m seeing is a kid with an elective opting for yoga, nutrition, etc. based on the perception that it’s easy (which it is) and it fits their schedule (nothing in the morning or on Friday), when they could have chosen a serious class in the humanities or liberal arts. I’d like to see a pre-med, business, or computer science major talk to me about how their Buddhism class influenced their thinking about life or their future profession. Or, how different philosophical viewpoints on love impacted their thinking about relationships.

Anonymous wrote:A truly educated citizenry threatens people in power, so we are fed lines about job training and told to measure outcomes by salary instead of by ability to reason and being a good human.

And the people in power in the US have defunded public colleges and somehow convinced constituents that it’s the colleges’ fault. It’s mind blowing.

A truly educated citizenry threatens people in power, so we are fed lines about job training and told to measure outcomes by salary instead of by ability to reason and being a good human.

Life has become very expensive. It is very difficult to afford to have a house and kids etc if you don’t have $$.
Universities are run like mini corporations. They don’t seem like the intellectual bastions they used to at least pretend to be.
University presidents make a huge salary.
And the US looks down on k-12 education and the k-12 teaching profession. Teachers are denigrated as a common sport. I suppose some of that scorn trickles up to the post secondary education sphere

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think at 80K a year for a private school, it’s changed what people expect.

OP here. I figured this would be the first response. But, for $80k, don’t you want your kid to be more interesting than just technically capable?

For $80k a year I want them to be interesting AND technically capable.

OP here. Me too, but that wasn't the poster's comment. Everyone wants kids to have technical/career-relevant skills, but kids now seem to pursue them almost exclusively.

You remember how the song “Common People” starts?
“She came from Greece she had a thirst for knowledge
She studied art at St Martin’s College…”
Did it not occur to your parents have to be loaded for you to be able to study art? Or anything that doesn’t land you a decent paying job? I mean, if you are going to have 40k in loans and your parents are also taking out loans for your college, you need to be able to make enough money to pay off your debt. A lot more kids woukd study philosophy or anthropology if school cost less. But being in debt with no way to pay it back is not what most parents want for their kids. So yes, ROI matters. Unless of course you are the subject in Commin Peopke” who’s “dad is loaded.”

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it just me or is college now more transactional than it was 20-30 years ago? It seems like students and parents are overwhelmingly focused on ROI, career earnings, next-step professional schools, etc. Extracurriculars and internships are all about landing a great job. Classes outside of one’s career path are a “waste of time,” and kids seek classes that are “easy” and “fit their lifestyle schedule.” I don’t hear kids talk with any excitement about a philosophy, religion, anthropology, fine arts, or history class. I don’t hear about kids working on research papers. I don’t hear kids grappling with social and political issues. Is it just me or has college become just another hurdle to adulthood that many feel they must jump, but really have no genuine interest in?

I was a STEM major and you seem to be describing my experience, but over 30 years ago. I didn’t talk with any excitement about philosophy or religion classes and took the bare minimum of those type required. Yes, we found out which were the easy ones.

Sounds like you had a good head on your shoulders.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think at 80K a year for a private school, it’s changed what people expect.

This.

What percentage actually pays full price? Less than 10%. Its just general attitude to weigh education as $per pound, both for administration and for parents.

Is this true? Literally everyone I know with kids at a T50 pays full price.

I hate to say it, so I won't, but most of these blue color jobs are filled by people outside this country. Years ago, one could get a decent manufacturing job and live decently (with health benefits) without having to work 70 hours a week to make ends meet. It's a college degree at a decent price or bust.

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that we have spent the last 40+ years telling kids that all you need is a college degree to get an above average life style. So, many, many kids who might have gone a different route (vocational school, apprenticeships, technical schools) are now going to college. Most degrees that students graduate with are oversubscribed. Many of the fields that are soft fields (fields that do not lead to an actual job outside of academia) have more students graduating with those degrees than there are positions to fill. So then they are forced to go into post-graduate training, whether law school, medical school, graduate school, business school, etc. And they rack up huge amounts of debt that they'll have to pay back, so they need to go into more lucrative fields to be able to afford their student loan payments.

Meanwhile, we have a dearth of auto mechanics, chefs, medical technicians, plumbers, electricians, HVAC technicians, and many other fields where you don't go to college. The students that used to go and take these careers and make decent wages, are no longer going into those fields because they pursued college and are looking for white collar jobs with their non-career oriented bachelor degrees.

So, yes, we have created a more transactional environment. Kids who go to college need to go into fields where they can earn their UMC lifestyle, especially if they have to pay student loans.

+100

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think at 80K a year for a private school, it’s changed what people expect.

OP here. I figured this would be the first response. But, for $80k, don’t you want your kid to be more interesting than just technically capable?

NP here. But even the people I know sending their kids to state schools and/or having their kid go to college somewhere with a significant amount of merit aid are very transactional.

OP here. Right! Right! But, I would have expected it more from those worried about finances. However, even those paying full freight to more expensive schools seem a bit the same. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that college costs and career readiness are not important. What I'm saying is that there seems a greatly diminished interest in anything but these issues. That is, no one seems to care anything about a liberal education - even at many selective schools.

OP, you sound insufferable. And out of touch.

Those going to cheaper schools (whether they are in-state schools or schools with merit aid) are most likely not from wealthy families, so they must especially focus on ROI. Full pay parents must also focus on ROI since throwing $300k down the drain for an English degree is the equivalent to lighting their bank account on fire.

Everyone focuses on ROI.

Anonymous wrote:Is it just me or is college now more transactional than it was 20-30 years ago? It seems like students and parents are overwhelmingly focused on ROI, career earnings, next-step professional schools, etc. Extracurriculars and internships are all about landing a great job. Classes outside of one’s career path are a “waste of time,” and kids seek classes that are “easy” and “fit their lifestyle schedule.” I don’t hear kids talk with any excitement about a philosophy, religion, anthropology, fine arts, or history class. I don’t hear about kids working on research papers. I don’t hear kids grappling with social and political issues. Is it just me or has college become just another hurdle to adulthood that many feel they must jump, but really have no genuine interest in?

This board's obsession with roi and limited idea of "success" makes me sad. I hope this is not true overall. Sure, it's good for students to ask themselves how they plan to move forward after college, but this can take many forms. And "return" on investment isn't always purely monetary. Sometimes, people seem to forget about higher education when considering institutions of higher education.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it just me or is college now more transactional than it was 20-30 years ago? It seems like students and parents are overwhelmingly focused on ROI, career earnings, next-step professional schools, etc. Extracurriculars and internships are all about landing a great job. Classes outside of one’s career path are a “waste of time,” and kids seek classes that are “easy” and “fit their lifestyle schedule.” I don’t hear kids talk with any excitement about a philosophy, religion, anthropology, fine arts, or history class. I don’t hear about kids working on research papers. I don’t hear kids grappling with social and political issues. Is it just me or has college become just another hurdle to adulthood that many feel they must jump, but really have no genuine interest in?

Nope, it was the same for us way back when. I don't encourage my kids to do fluffy majors. I will not pay for a fun major. I will pay for one that leads to a career, as my parents said.

+100

College is for the sole purpose of getting a high-paying job or getting into a lucrative grad school. Full stop.

Anonymous wrote:I think it’s partly that academia no longer seems like a viable path. It used to be that if you majored in anthropology or comparative lit or philosophy you could get a PhD and teach (or it seemed like you could). But now almost everyone knows those jobs don’t exist.

But also—I was a humanities major and believe the humanities are dying in part because of the orientation of the disciplines themselves. Where is the study of English going? Literary theory is not a productive direction, imo. What exciting new developments are on the horizon?

Why not? Care to explain, PP?