Anonymous wrote:As long as we are posting about Mary Oliver, there is this: Poem For My Fathers Ghost.

Now is my father
A traveler, like all the bold men
He talked of, endlessly
And with boundless admiration,
Over the supper table,
Or gazing up from his white pillow –
Book on his lap, always, until
Even that grew too heavy to hold.
Now is my father free of all binding fevers
Now is my father
Traveling where there is no road
Finally, he could not lift a hand
To cover his eyes.
Now he climbs to the eye of the river,
He strides through the Dakotas,
He disappears into the mountains.
And though he looks
Cold and hungry as any man
At the end of a questing season,
He is one of them now:
He cannot be stopped.
Now is my father
Walking the wind,
Sniffing the deep Pacific
That begins at the end of the world.
Vanished from us utterly,
Now is my father circling the deepest forest –
Then turning in to the last red campfire burning
In the final hills,
Where chieftains, warriors and heroes
Rise and make him welcome,
Recognizing, under the shambles of his body,
A brother who has walked his thousand miles.

"Written after his death, this poem, an elegy to Oliver’s father is, in the words of Matthew Gindin, a poem whose shattering generosity – given that Oliver’s father sexually abused her when she was a child – can produce nothing but a kind of stunned reverence. Perhaps this could serve as a reminder to us that love can and does conquer all..."

Most people who post on DCUM wailing about their parents aren't talking about parents who sexually abused them so this is not appropriate -- it just justified going to the extreme when it's not necessary.. OP didn't mention sexual abuse. Yes posters always encourage people to cut off their parents, as if they had done the worst imaginable things to their children. It's wrong and frankly mentally ill.

OP, my neighbor was an alcoholic. Her very young adult AC moved away and stopped talking to her. She was in so much pain over them, constantly saying how much she missed them. We all felt so sorry for her. Yes, for HER, even though we all knew she was an alcoholic and that must have been very difficult for her children to deal with. They did a horrible thing by cutting her off. They did that on purpose. After about a year she killed herself. We watched the police go in and get her body. Now her children have THAT to deal with for the rest of their lives, instead of their alcoholic mom. That's a scar that will never heal.

To the posters who advocate this lunacy -- for every person you convince to cut off their own parent, who is not actively abusing them, you are creating another link in your own chain.

Anonymous wrote:I went through this with my dad and eventually I just stopped calling him. The guilt of not calling is more bearable than the dread of making the call, the abuse during, and the regret afterwards.

This. I moved to only email, text and seeing in person. Anytime I got a nastygram I took a long break and put it in my nastygram file.

It never fails the posters who warn about estrangement and permanent damage to your life. Yet, I never met someone who went in that direction without years of therapy and trying every technique to have a tolerable relationship. Basically you keep stepping back until you find the sweet spot where you can stand to interact without having an emotional hangover every time. I found once I went very low contact, after probably 7 years of pulling back and crying in therapy over abusive behavior, I finally found some sense of sanity and didn't need therapy. The nutties here will tell you all therapists tell you to cut off. Quite the contrary actually. They try everything known to research to help you have a tolerable relationship. Cut off is bad for business, because it's often a huge relief. I haven't needed therapy since going low contact. perhaps she has, but she has needed therapy her whole life and avoided it so if this finally made her confront her abusive ways that drove so many people away, it is good for her health.

Anonymous wrote:^ Suggest OP reads this and perhaps reconsiders her "agony" over phone calls from her mother.

Hey, lady, have you thought about the fact that your poem is about seeing the man, not interacting with him?
About thinking about him charitably, not about trying to please him?

It is "shattering generosity" to see him as he is, carefully, and without just despair. Just SEEING him and relating to it.

^ Suggest PP reads this and perhaps reconsiders her "advice" to OP.

Yes, one woman can contain both of those perspectives.

Can you see how this illustrates that drawing boundaries does not make OP a bad daughter who doesn't see or care about her mother?

Thank you.

^ Suggest OP reads this and perhaps reconsiders her "agony" over phone calls from her mother.

As long as we are posting about Mary Oliver, there is this: Poem For My Fathers Ghost.

Now is my father
A traveler, like all the bold men
He talked of, endlessly
And with boundless admiration,
Over the supper table,
Or gazing up from his white pillow –
Book on his lap, always, until
Even that grew too heavy to hold.
Now is my father free of all binding fevers
Now is my father
Traveling where there is no road
Finally, he could not lift a hand
To cover his eyes.
Now he climbs to the eye of the river,
He strides through the Dakotas,
He disappears into the mountains.
And though he looks
Cold and hungry as any man
At the end of a questing season,
He is one of them now:
He cannot be stopped.
Now is my father
Walking the wind,
Sniffing the deep Pacific
That begins at the end of the world.
Vanished from us utterly,
Now is my father circling the deepest forest –
Then turning in to the last red campfire burning
In the final hills,
Where chieftains, warriors and heroes
Rise and make him welcome,
Recognizing, under the shambles of his body,
A brother who has walked his thousand miles.

"Written after his death, this poem, an elegy to Oliver’s father is, in the words of Matthew Gindin, a poem whose shattering generosity – given that Oliver’s father sexually abused her when she was a child – can produce nothing but a kind of stunned reverence. Perhaps this could serve as a reminder to us that love can and does conquer all..."

OP, there is something freeing in realizing that your mother will be miserable and angry no matter what you do. Even when you try your hardest, she is the same carping, hypercritical, unhappy person. You can't make it better. Read that and think about it -- you can't make it better for her, and she is unwilling to change, so this is what it is.

That means that this is a painful, unhappy relationship. it also means that it doesn't matter what you do, so you might as well make one person happier. She is going to be what she is, and you can protect yourself from that as best as possible.

It sounds like this has been a rough go from childhood. I'm sorry for that. I'm glad you are recognizing it as unhealthy, and I hope you find a way to live with that and keep yourself safe.

You know that person (or persons) in the thread above trying to guilt you over this? They are really going to steam over this part. I'm going to give you a gift as an internet stranger, because I think these may connect with you.

1. Walking away doesn't always mean leaving forever. It can be just setting a boundary for now. That being said,



2. And then this -- Mary Oliver. I think you would like her poetry. Also check out "Wild Geese," if you like.

The Journey

One day you finally knew
what you had to do, and began,
though the voices around you
kept shouting
their bad advice–
though the whole house
began to tremble
and you felt the old tug
at your ankles.
‘Mend my life!’
each voice cried.
But you didn’t stop.
You knew what you had to do,
though the wind pried
with its stiff fingers
at the very foundations,
though their melancholy
was terrible.
It was already late
enough, and a wild night,
and the road full of fallen
branches and stones.
But little by little,
as you left their voices behind,
the stars began to burn
through the sheets of clouds,
and there was a new voice
which you slowly
recognised as your own,
that kept you company
as you strode deeper and deeper
into the world,
determined to do
the only thing you could do–
determined to save
the only life you could save.

-Mary Oliver

I found it helpful to think of my mother as an emotional black hole. I had been trained that it was my job to try to fill the emptiness in her life from all the people who failed her—her parents, my father, the many friends who dared to question her and were thereafter deemed betrayers. But no amount od my love or obedience would ever fill the empty space inside her because she is not a regular hole. She is a black hole. She will suck me dry and be just and empty and angry as she was at the start.

So instead I had to decide what I wanted to do for her, to make ME feel okay. But the goal cannot be to make her feel okay, because she never ever will.

I went through this with my dad and eventually I just stopped calling him. The guilt of not calling is more bearable than the dread of making the call, the abuse during, and the regret afterwards.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do so many people post these threads on DCUM? You know damn well all the maladjusted broken people will come out of the woodwork pressuring you be the worst possible version of a DD you can be, instead of helping you deal with your mother the way she is without suffering yourself. Telling you to cut her off instead of helping you have compassion. To only focus on your own feelings and needs instead of the feelings and needs of an elderly person WHO GAVE BIRTH TO YOU AND RAISED YOU. As if you're somehow not capable of being a normal, decent person. As if in your moment of weakness they're urging you "Do it!! Just do it!! Be your worst self! Follow your basest instincts!!!" instead of telling you that you feel bad now but it will get better, that you can handle it, etc.

It's so predictable and disgusting. The people who were raised in a normal way and are healthy get drowned out or don't bother with these threads. You're just getting the worst possible advice, OP. But I'm sure you expected that when you posted.

Op here. You made me feel like absolute sh-t with what you wrote so I hope you’re happy and got what you needed out of doing this.

If I had your number I’d give it to my mom and I’m sure you would enjoy each other’s company and talk for hours together like the generous, better person you are.

I think this responder actually has some valid points. The responses to cut off the mom only serves to put Op on a therapist's couch for decades. She already feels tremendous guilt.
There are ways to deal with people like this but the basics is that things won't change and that mom is deeply flawed. Mom herself needs to accept things won't change. Managing expectations is missing here.

Agree. OP's vitriolic response to a differing perspective and legitimate criticism is a red flag.

I also find it unusual that just about every poster complaining about a parent prefaces it by saying they were physically, mentally or emotionally abused in some way. The intent of which is to immediately place the burden of blame on the parent.

I'm not doubting that some have been abused but I do wonder about this. Is it physical abuse to make a small child hold your hand when crossing the street? Is it emotional abuse to tell a child they won't always be the first/best/winner and to learn to lose graciously? Is it mental abuse to withhold games before homework is completed?

I disagree that op's response is a "red flag"--it's a reaction to yet again being blamed for her feelings. Her mother is a controlling, manipulating, abusive person. I am lucky that my mother is kind and generous, so I'm not a np who is blaming mom for all my woes. OP's mom is mentally ill and hell bent on making her daughter as miserable as possible. She's reaching out for support, so be supportive, please don't victim blame--she gets plenty of that from mom.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do so many people post these threads on DCUM? You know damn well all the maladjusted broken people will come out of the woodwork pressuring you be the worst possible version of a DD you can be, instead of helping you deal with your mother the way she is without suffering yourself. Telling you to cut her off instead of helping you have compassion. To only focus on your own feelings and needs instead of the feelings and needs of an elderly person WHO GAVE BIRTH TO YOU AND RAISED YOU. As if you're somehow not capable of being a normal, decent person. As if in your moment of weakness they're urging you "Do it!! Just do it!! Be your worst self! Follow your basest instincts!!!" instead of telling you that you feel bad now but it will get better, that you can handle it, etc.

It's so predictable and disgusting. The people who were raised in a normal way and are healthy get drowned out or don't bother with these threads. You're just getting the worst possible advice, OP. But I'm sure you expected that when you posted.

Op here. You made me feel like absolute sh-t with what you wrote so I hope you’re happy and got what you needed out of doing this.

If I had your number I’d give it to my mom and I’m sure you would enjoy each other’s company and talk for hours together like the generous, better person you are.

I think this responder actually has some valid points. The responses to cut off the mom only serves to put Op on a therapist's couch for decades. She already feels tremendous guilt.
There are ways to deal with people like this but the basics is that things won't change and that mom is deeply flawed. Mom herself needs to accept things won't change. Managing expectations is missing here.

Agree. OP's vitriolic response to a differing perspective and legitimate criticism is a red flag.

I also find it unusual that just about every poster complaining about a parent prefaces it by saying they were physically, mentally or emotionally abused in some way. The intent of which is to immediately place the burden of blame on the parent.

I'm not doubting that some have been abused but I do wonder about this. Is it physical abuse to make a small child hold your hand when crossing the street? Is it emotional abuse to tell a child they won't always be the first/best/winner and to learn to lose graciously? Is it mental abuse to withhold games before homework is completed?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Why do so many people post these threads on DCUM? You know damn well all the maladjusted broken people will come out of the woodwork pressuring you be the worst possible version of a DD you can be, instead of helping you deal with your mother the way she is without suffering yourself. Telling you to cut her off instead of helping you have compassion. To only focus on your own feelings and needs instead of the feelings and needs of an elderly person WHO GAVE BIRTH TO YOU AND RAISED YOU. As if you're somehow not capable of being a normal, decent person. As if in your moment of weakness they're urging you "Do it!! Just do it!! Be your worst self! Follow your basest instincts!!!" instead of telling you that you feel bad now but it will get better, that you can handle it, etc.

It's so predictable and disgusting. The people who were raised in a normal way and are healthy get drowned out or don't bother with these threads. You're just getting the worst possible advice, OP. But I'm sure you expected that when you posted.

Op here. You made me feel like absolute sh-t with what you wrote so I hope you’re happy and got what you needed out of doing this.

If I had your number I’d give it to my mom and I’m sure you would enjoy each other’s company and talk for hours together like the generous, better person you are.

I think this responder actually has some valid points. The responses to cut off the mom only serves to put Op on a therapist's couch for decades. She already feels tremendous guilt.
There are ways to deal with people like this but the basics is that things won't change and that mom is deeply flawed. Mom herself needs to accept things won't change. Managing expectations is missing here.

Anonymous wrote:Why do so many people post these threads on DCUM? You know damn well all the maladjusted broken people will come out of the woodwork pressuring you be the worst possible version of a DD you can be, instead of helping you deal with your mother the way she is without suffering yourself. Telling you to cut her off instead of helping you have compassion. To only focus on your own feelings and needs instead of the feelings and needs of an elderly person WHO GAVE BIRTH TO YOU AND RAISED YOU. As if you're somehow not capable of being a normal, decent person. As if in your moment of weakness they're urging you "Do it!! Just do it!! Be your worst self! Follow your basest instincts!!!" instead of telling you that you feel bad now but it will get better, that you can handle it, etc.

It's so predictable and disgusting. The people who were raised in a normal way and are healthy get drowned out or don't bother with these threads. You're just getting the worst possible advice, OP. But I'm sure you expected that when you posted.

Op here. You made me feel like absolute sh-t with what you wrote so I hope you’re happy and got what you needed out of doing this.

If I had your number I’d give it to my mom and I’m sure you would enjoy each other’s company and talk for hours together like the generous, better person you are.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Op here, just wanted to let you all know that I’m in tears. I posted this at the true end of my rope expecting not to receive a single reply or maybe to get chastised. It’s hard to believe that there are people out there on a Friday night after bedtime taking the time to care, and I want you to know that I feel wrapped in kindness and support.

We do support you, OP! And just ignore the loonies. The people who criticize you are scared by the idea of the people in their life setting healthy boundaries. When you treat others well, this idea does not frighten or upset you.

You have no idea how normal people live.

Anonymous wrote:Op here, just wanted to let you all know that I’m in tears. I posted this at the true end of my rope expecting not to receive a single reply or maybe to get chastised. It’s hard to believe that there are people out there on a Friday night after bedtime taking the time to care, and I want you to know that I feel wrapped in kindness and support.

We do support you, OP! And just ignore the loonies. The people who criticize you are scared by the idea of the people in their life setting healthy boundaries. When you treat others well, this idea does not frighten or upset you.