Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:26
Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I quit my job in basically that situation. It came down to one or the other and he was never going to make the professional changes. We were both in biglaw.
I don't get this Biglaw starts at 215k these days. So both of you were making atleast 500k, no.
With 100k in house help, you can pretty much outsource 75% of stuff. Why quit?
Typical DCUM.
Some people would like to see their children for more than 15 minutes a day. Imagine that. Do you think it's a good idea for children to be raised by 2 parents who both work 12 hour days?
Then say that. Don't blame dishes, laundry, sheduling, cooking etc. Those can and should be outsourced. I agree with you that time spent with kids cannot be outsourced. But that's about it.
My DH loves reading to his kids every single night, and he won't give thst up for a million bucks.
Outsourcing is also something to maintain and manage. It's not like a house fairy shows up and just magically does it all when you think about it. How do people not understand this?
Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:25
Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I quit my job in basically that situation. It came down to one or the other and he was never going to make the professional changes. We were both in biglaw.
I don't get this Biglaw starts at 215k these days. So both of you were making atleast 500k, no.
With 100k in house help, you can pretty much outsource 75% of stuff. Why quit?
Things you can not outsource:
Mental accounting of you children. So, who reads the school emails and puts the necessary dates in the calendar? Who lines up day camps for the days they are off school? Who notices it's book fair week and puts money in the backpack? Who remembers the 5 year old needs a snack packed EVERY day? Who keeps track of what size clothing each of the kids wears? Who cleans out the drawers? Who buys the new clothes? Who makes sure they fit? Who figures out what to do with outgrown clothing? Who pays attention to summer camp registration? When it that? What weeks are we going on vacation? What week is their favorite camp held that they don't want to miss? When is the sign up for basketball? Do they need a well visit scheduled? Dentist? When was the last time we had a date night, I should book a sitter. Christmas is looming, time to start tracking what things the kids like and would enjoy. Time to book the special events and start planning visits and doing the gift buying.
AND ON AND ON.
You can outsource laundry and cleaning, sure. Food shopping, sort of. Cooking, maybe if you are very rich. But their is day to day minutia of running a house and having children that is NOT outsourceable, that often falls to moms. We are not better at this, but culturally we have been conditioned to do it. I just had a dad this morning, who is a lawyer, tell me he can't keep up with the school emails. It is not that hard to read the school emails! Do you ignore emails from co-workers? No, you read them, pull out what you need and delete. These are the same skills.
If you could outsource all of this, you are acknowledging that doing these things is A JOB, correct? A job that should pay money, right? So why is it only the mom's job? Men are capable, they just opt out. Women are screaming at the top of their lungs that they can't do it all and are desperate for help. And many men (not all!) will go rake the yard and then ask for a pat on the back. Do you see how that didn't address a single piece of the daily minutia?
I agree that this stuff should be split if both parents are working full time, but none of these things is particularly time consuming. Camp registration is basically one day per year. Sign ups for sports is a few different days per year, takes maybe 30 minutes tops each time. Remembering the snack every day? Uh, just pack a snack, or forget occasionally and life goes on. You even say that it doesn't take long to read and react to the emails. So, yes, your husband should do some of this, but your post is a lot exaggeration, and some of it truly is make-work.
It's EXAMPLES here my friend. There are about one thousand other things I did not list, because I figured most people would get the point. Yes, camp registration is one day. If it's so easy, DH's should be able to just swoop in and do it and everyone's needs will be accounted for and they will be happy at the end, correct? Including DW's? Right?
Also, outsourcing does not solve all problems. Let's say you hire a House Manager employee because you have $60k to burn. You still have to FIND that person, hire them, train them, get them into the routine. you have to then manage an employee in your household! And then, when the employee leave or is out for a spell, someone else has to be able to seamlessly move into that role to keep things running.
The issue with these jobs is that they all take attention away from other things. Do you get 2 solid hours to dedicate to work, while the school nurse is calling your wife in the middle of HER meeting to come pick up your kids because someone is sick? Think about how that impacts her ability to do things at your level in the work place?
Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:24
Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I quit my job in basically that situation. It came down to one or the other and he was never going to make the professional changes. We were both in biglaw.
I don't get this Biglaw starts at 215k these days. So both of you were making atleast 500k, no.
With 100k in house help, you can pretty much outsource 75% of stuff. Why quit?
Typical DCUM.
Some people would like to see their children for more than 15 minutes a day. Imagine that. Do you think it's a good idea for children to be raised by 2 parents who both work 12 hour days?
Then say that. Don't blame dishes, laundry, sheduling, cooking etc. Those can and should be outsourced. I agree with you that time spent with kids cannot be outsourced. But that's about it.
My DH loves reading to his kids every single night, and he won't give thst up for a million bucks.
Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:21
Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I quit my job in basically that situation. It came down to one or the other and he was never going to make the professional changes. We were both in biglaw.
I don't get this Biglaw starts at 215k these days. So both of you were making atleast 500k, no.
With 100k in house help, you can pretty much outsource 75% of stuff. Why quit?
Typical DCUM.
Some people would like to see their children for more than 15 minutes a day. Imagine that. Do you think it's a good idea for children to be raised by 2 parents who both work 12 hour days?
The answer to this is that, yes, DCUM does think that's a good idea, but you are right that it is crazy and not at all healthy for anyone.
Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:20
Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I quit my job in basically that situation. It came down to one or the other and he was never going to make the professional changes. We were both in biglaw.
I don't get this Biglaw starts at 215k these days. So both of you were making atleast 500k, no.
With 100k in house help, you can pretty much outsource 75% of stuff. Why quit?
Things you can not outsource:
Mental accounting of you children. So, who reads the school emails and puts the necessary dates in the calendar? Who lines up day camps for the days they are off school? Who notices it's book fair week and puts money in the backpack? Who remembers the 5 year old needs a snack packed EVERY day? Who keeps track of what size clothing each of the kids wears? Who cleans out the drawers? Who buys the new clothes? Who makes sure they fit? Who figures out what to do with outgrown clothing? Who pays attention to summer camp registration? When it that? What weeks are we going on vacation? What week is their favorite camp held that they don't want to miss? When is the sign up for basketball? Do they need a well visit scheduled? Dentist? When was the last time we had a date night, I should book a sitter. Christmas is looming, time to start tracking what things the kids like and would enjoy. Time to book the special events and start planning visits and doing the gift buying.
AND ON AND ON.
You can outsource laundry and cleaning, sure. Food shopping, sort of. Cooking, maybe if you are very rich. But their is day to day minutia of running a house and having children that is NOT outsourceable, that often falls to moms. We are not better at this, but culturally we have been conditioned to do it. I just had a dad this morning, who is a lawyer, tell me he can't keep up with the school emails. It is not that hard to read the school emails! Do you ignore emails from co-workers? No, you read them, pull out what you need and delete. These are the same skills.
If you could outsource all of this, you are acknowledging that doing these things is A JOB, correct? A job that should pay money, right? So why is it only the mom's job? Men are capable, they just opt out. Women are screaming at the top of their lungs that they can't do it all and are desperate for help. And many men (not all!) will go rake the yard and then ask for a pat on the back. Do you see how that didn't address a single piece of the daily minutia?
I agree that this stuff should be split if both parents are working full time, but none of these things is particularly time consuming. Camp registration is basically one day per year. Sign ups for sports is a few different days per year, takes maybe 30 minutes tops each time. Remembering the snack every day? Uh, just pack a snack, or forget occasionally and life goes on. You even say that it doesn't take long to read and react to the emails. So, yes, your husband should do some of this, but your post is a lot exaggeration, and some of it truly is make-work.
Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:20
Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I quit my job in basically that situation. It came down to one or the other and he was never going to make the professional changes. We were both in biglaw.
I don't get this Biglaw starts at 215k these days. So both of you were making atleast 500k, no.
With 100k in house help, you can pretty much outsource 75% of stuff. Why quit?
Typical DCUM.
Some people would like to see their children for more than 15 minutes a day. Imagine that. Do you think it's a good idea for children to be raised by 2 parents who both work 12 hour days?
Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:12
Subject: Re:How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
I don't know anyone but live around a lot of stay-at-home moms who have tons of money to hire out for stuff. The families don't even mow the yard, dad dries a Tesla etc. I'm sure it's the hardest on families who don't make a lot living in an expensive area. I also know families with eight children living cheaply somewhere looking to have their 9th child and the dad or mom or both have some smallish job working as an assistant to someone and they have low standards for their kids. I divorced because of the 3 A's personally but it all is a lot of work so I understand the frustration. I care about my kids too much to give them half the time to someone who is a deadbeat so without abuse I probably wouldn't leave.
Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:10
Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I’m about to. We had a talk about it last night and H threw a fit saying I don’t appreciate the one time he cleaned up the yard.
Then I went to empty the dishwasher and he goes “why are you doing that??” Uh, because the dishes need to be unloaded and no one else will do it? Which p!ssed him off, he told me to get out of the kitchen, and made a huge deal by spending two hours cleaning the kitchen down to every last detail to prove I’m not the martyr I think I am.
UGH.
PP who quit. My DH used to do things exactly like this. He also would accuse me of doing make-work that even he acknowledges today were necessary kid tasks.
In my case I can say now he really *couldn’t* do more at home given the weight of his professional load. I grew up middle class and was really resistant to hiring out the level of stuff we needed to. He grew up UMC and didn’t understand why I was reacting like that. But even for things that just could not be outsourced, I think he got very defensive about it and refused to open his eyes to the reality of 1) how much life stuff just cannot be outsourced 2) how much I was doing. Because if he really saw it, he’d have to admit it was deeply unfair and accept that he was the bad guy in the dynamic, which is a big blow to anyone’s ego. If that’s what you have to convince your spouse of, that they are treating you very unfairly (and in my case that was also hobbling my career which I was just as ambitious about as him) well, that’s just a big pill to swallow.
So he was very professionally busy and offered up the solution of hiring stuff out and you resisted? And still complained about the workload?
…yes? I’m admitting we were both wrong. That’s how we are still married my friend.
You’re still married because you caved and gave up your financial independence.
You sound mad. Why are you mad?
NP here.
I mean, isn't it a legitimately angering phenomenon that women often give up financial independence because their husbands won't step up?
Yeah. It's actually these people who shouldn't be depending on these men. Someone has shown that they don't have enough empathy for you, and you think it's a good idea to make your life even more dependent on them. How does that make sense?
Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:07
Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I quit my job in basically that situation. It came down to one or the other and he was never going to make the professional changes. We were both in biglaw.
I don't get this Biglaw starts at 215k these days. So both of you were making atleast 500k, no.
With 100k in house help, you can pretty much outsource 75% of stuff. Why quit?
Things you can not outsource:
Mental accounting of you children. So, who reads the school emails and puts the necessary dates in the calendar? Who lines up day camps for the days they are off school? Who notices it's book fair week and puts money in the backpack? Who remembers the 5 year old needs a snack packed EVERY day? Who keeps track of what size clothing each of the kids wears? Who cleans out the drawers? Who buys the new clothes? Who makes sure they fit? Who figures out what to do with outgrown clothing? Who pays attention to summer camp registration? When it that? What weeks are we going on vacation? What week is their favorite camp held that they don't want to miss? When is the sign up for basketball? Do they need a well visit scheduled? Dentist? When was the last time we had a date night, I should book a sitter. Christmas is looming, time to start tracking what things the kids like and would enjoy. Time to book the special events and start planning visits and doing the gift buying.
AND ON AND ON.
You can outsource laundry and cleaning, sure. Food shopping, sort of. Cooking, maybe if you are very rich. But their is day to day minutia of running a house and having children that is NOT outsourceable, that often falls to moms. We are not better at this, but culturally we have been conditioned to do it. I just had a dad this morning, who is a lawyer, tell me he can't keep up with the school emails. It is not that hard to read the school emails! Do you ignore emails from co-workers? No, you read them, pull out what you need and delete. These are the same skills.
If you could outsource all of this, you are acknowledging that doing these things is A JOB, correct? A job that should pay money, right? So why is it only the mom's job? Men are capable, they just opt out. Women are screaming at the top of their lungs that they can't do it all and are desperate for help. And many men (not all!) will go rake the yard and then ask for a pat on the back. Do you see how that didn't address a single piece of the daily minutia?
It shouldn't be only moms who do it. My DH does, but he is maxed out salary wise at 200k, and I am just starting out after taking a mommy break.
You can bet that when we make a combined 500k and more, we are hiring a household manager to schedule camps, vacations, doctors' visits, pack snacks etc. We already talk about it. Lol.
I know female law firm partners who have household managers. It's actually crazy in your case to give up your career for a man who I'd that self centered. Well, unless you are independently wealthy.
10 years in biglaw later and I don’t know anyone who has actually realized your outsourcing fantasy. Maybe you know someone who found that kind of proactive help, but I don’t.
I honestly do know 2 big law female partners who have very effective household managers. I am surprised it's not more common.
Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:07
Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Because divorce suddenly relieves that workload?
Often, yes.
So the money you would have spent outsourcing is spent running two households. Except with 2 households your children are moving back and forth. Hmmmm
A good friend is going through this right now. Biglaw (partner) spouse. Friend had a big career too and then downgraded to consulting to be able to keep up with the home workload and BS still refused to do literally anything. They have childcare 7 days a week, local grandparents and a weekly housekeeper and landscapers. But BS insists on a beautiful, expensive, maintenance-heavy lifestyle. Tesla, mansion, antique furnishings, dry clean only clothes, etc. All of which Friend is left to maintain.
Friend moved to a new-build close-in town-home with a lot less to clean and no yard. In addition to all the messes BS used to create and the stress of never being able to plan anything because a work call or email could derail everything from a playdate with a friend to an international vacation, Friend now has 100% control over the level of complexity of their life, home and schedule and can make choices without factoring in BS’s class anxiety.
Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:04
Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Because divorce suddenly relieves that workload?
Often, yes.
So the money you would have spent outsourcing is spent running two households. Except with 2 households your children are moving back and forth. Hmmmm
In the case of the divorce you eliminate one of the biggest mess makers in the house.
Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:04
Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:It's definitely tough...I work from home while DH goes in to the office so a lot of stuff falls to me, especially on days when the kids are home.
I miss those early pandemic days when I worked from home and he was out of work and took care of everything around the house.
I have WFH full time for a long time so I've always done the bulk of stuff at home, even before we had kids, because it's just really easy to build stuff like laundry, food prep, and cleaning into your day when you have no commute and you are home all day.
However, during Covid he started WFH, first full time and now just a couple days a week. And I resent how little he does around the house when he is WFH. I don't expect him to do as much as I do when it's just me, but he does NOTHING. He doesn't even rinse his dishes and put them in the dishwasher, which I know is something he does in the office. And during the time that our then-toddler was also home with us all day, he did significantly less childcare and when he did do any, he was constantly asking me if I could take over so he could get back to work. Again, I work full time, but he's myopic about this and seems to think his job is more important even though we make similar salaries.
I have come to resent his WFH days because he feels like dead weight. He works in the dining room (we don't have a home office), he is on calls all day, he doesn't clean up after himself. I know he likes not commuting and I like that for him but I used to love WFH because the house was so quiet and clean and I feel like it ran really efficiently. Now it's like I'll go to do some meal prep during my lunch hour but I have to stop and clean up his breakfast and lunch messes first so that I have counter space to work in. I can't run the vacuum during a break because he's on the phone, etc.
If he lost his job I feel pretty confident I'd still be doing the bulk of the housework and childcare somehow.
Yup. This is such a huge contrast in approaches. Frustrates me too. Dh works from home for a couple months now. Am dishes not cleaned, lunch stuff piled up etc. As soon as i get home with the kids he starts doing laundry. So then I have to do childcare and make dinner while he folds things. Yay he does laundry but he could do it after the kids go to bed or any other time than the 3 hrs he gets to see them each evening. The occasional day I WFH, i used to clean the kitchen in the am (takes 10 min) and pick up the house quickly while walking around on calls. Im just not going to bother now. I feel like WFH for women is a bait and switch and they just do more at home during their would be commutes and working hours. while many men still dont bother with the household stuff even as it freed up some commuting time.
Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:03
Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I’m about to. We had a talk about it last night and H threw a fit saying I don’t appreciate the one time he cleaned up the yard.
Then I went to empty the dishwasher and he goes “why are you doing that??” Uh, because the dishes need to be unloaded and no one else will do it? Which p!ssed him off, he told me to get out of the kitchen, and made a huge deal by spending two hours cleaning the kitchen down to every last detail to prove I’m not the martyr I think I am.
UGH.
PP who quit. My DH used to do things exactly like this. He also would accuse me of doing make-work that even he acknowledges today were necessary kid tasks.
In my case I can say now he really *couldn’t* do more at home given the weight of his professional load. I grew up middle class and was really resistant to hiring out the level of stuff we needed to. He grew up UMC and didn’t understand why I was reacting like that. But even for things that just could not be outsourced, I think he got very defensive about it and refused to open his eyes to the reality of 1) how much life stuff just cannot be outsourced 2) how much I was doing. Because if he really saw it, he’d have to admit it was deeply unfair and accept that he was the bad guy in the dynamic, which is a big blow to anyone’s ego. If that’s what you have to convince your spouse of, that they are treating you very unfairly (and in my case that was also hobbling my career which I was just as ambitious about as him) well, that’s just a big pill to swallow.
So he was very professionally busy and offered up the solution of hiring stuff out and you resisted? And still complained about the workload?
…yes? I’m admitting we were both wrong. That’s how we are still married my friend.
You’re still married because you caved and gave up your financial independence.
You sound mad. Why are you mad?
NP here.
I mean, isn't it a legitimately angering phenomenon that women often give up financial independence because their husbands won't step up?
Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:02
Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I quit my job in basically that situation. It came down to one or the other and he was never going to make the professional changes. We were both in biglaw.
I don't get this Biglaw starts at 215k these days. So both of you were making atleast 500k, no.
With 100k in house help, you can pretty much outsource 75% of stuff. Why quit?
Things you can not outsource:
Mental accounting of you children. So, who reads the school emails and puts the necessary dates in the calendar? Who lines up day camps for the days they are off school? Who notices it's book fair week and puts money in the backpack? Who remembers the 5 year old needs a snack packed EVERY day? Who keeps track of what size clothing each of the kids wears? Who cleans out the drawers? Who buys the new clothes? Who makes sure they fit? Who figures out what to do with outgrown clothing? Who pays attention to summer camp registration? When it that? What weeks are we going on vacation? What week is their favorite camp held that they don't want to miss? When is the sign up for basketball? Do they need a well visit scheduled? Dentist? When was the last time we had a date night, I should book a sitter. Christmas is looming, time to start tracking what things the kids like and would enjoy. Time to book the special events and start planning visits and doing the gift buying.
AND ON AND ON.
You can outsource laundry and cleaning, sure. Food shopping, sort of. Cooking, maybe if you are very rich. But their is day to day minutia of running a house and having children that is NOT outsourceable, that often falls to moms. We are not better at this, but culturally we have been conditioned to do it. I just had a dad this morning, who is a lawyer, tell me he can't keep up with the school emails. It is not that hard to read the school emails! Do you ignore emails from co-workers? No, you read them, pull out what you need and delete. These are the same skills.
If you could outsource all of this, you are acknowledging that doing these things is A JOB, correct? A job that should pay money, right? So why is it only the mom's job? Men are capable, they just opt out. Women are screaming at the top of their lungs that they can't do it all and are desperate for help. And many men (not all!) will go rake the yard and then ask for a pat on the back. Do you see how that didn't address a single piece of the daily minutia?
It shouldn't be only moms who do it. My DH does, but he is maxed out salary wise at 200k, and I am just starting out after taking a mommy break.
You can bet that when we make a combined 500k and more, we are hiring a household manager to schedule camps, vacations, doctors' visits, pack snacks etc. We already talk about it. Lol.
I know female law firm partners who have household managers. It's actually crazy in your case to give up your career for a man who I'd that self centered. Well, unless you are independently wealthy.
10 years in biglaw later and I don’t know anyone who has actually realized your outsourcing fantasy. Maybe you know someone who found that kind of proactive help, but I don’t.
Anonymous
11/03/2022 11:00
Subject: How many women here divorced primarily due to imbalanced, unsustainable home workload?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:I’m about to. We had a talk about it last night and H threw a fit saying I don’t appreciate the one time he cleaned up the yard.
Then I went to empty the dishwasher and he goes “why are you doing that??” Uh, because the dishes need to be unloaded and no one else will do it? Which p!ssed him off, he told me to get out of the kitchen, and made a huge deal by spending two hours cleaning the kitchen down to every last detail to prove I’m not the martyr I think I am.
UGH.
PP who quit. My DH used to do things exactly like this. He also would accuse me of doing make-work that even he acknowledges today were necessary kid tasks.
In my case I can say now he really *couldn’t* do more at home given the weight of his professional load. I grew up middle class and was really resistant to hiring out the level of stuff we needed to. He grew up UMC and didn’t understand why I was reacting like that. But even for things that just could not be outsourced, I think he got very defensive about it and refused to open his eyes to the reality of 1) how much life stuff just cannot be outsourced 2) how much I was doing. Because if he really saw it, he’d have to admit it was deeply unfair and accept that he was the bad guy in the dynamic, which is a big blow to anyone’s ego. If that’s what you have to convince your spouse of, that they are treating you very unfairly (and in my case that was also hobbling my career which I was just as ambitious about as him) well, that’s just a big pill to swallow.
So he was very professionally busy and offered up the solution of hiring stuff out and you resisted? And still complained about the workload?
…yes? I’m admitting we were both wrong. That’s how we are still married my friend.
You’re still married because you caved and gave up your financial independence.
You sound mad. Why are you mad?