Anonymous
Post 09/05/2022 17:03     Subject: Re:“Due dates” and “deadlines”
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We are talking about adults who will be out in the work world very soon. I'd give one day's grace period but after that, you get nada. As far as what the student learned, they learned a very valuable lesson. Turn is stuff on time.


12 yo middle schoolers are not adults about to be out in the work force.



We were discussing college students above. I think 11th and 12th graders should also be held to higher standards to prepare them for college.


This MCPS policy applies to MS and HS students. This thread isn’t about college students.
Anonymous
Post 09/05/2022 17:01     Subject: Re:“Due dates” and “deadlines”
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:We are talking about adults who will be out in the work world very soon. I'd give one day's grace period but after that, you get nada. As far as what the student learned, they learned a very valuable lesson. Turn is stuff on time.


12 yo middle schoolers are not adults about to be out in the work force.



We were discussing college students above. I think 11th and 12th graders should also be held to higher standards to prepare them for college.
Anonymous
Post 09/05/2022 16:46     Subject: Re:“Due dates” and “deadlines”
Anonymous wrote:We are talking about adults who will be out in the work world very soon. I'd give one day's grace period but after that, you get nada. As far as what the student learned, they learned a very valuable lesson. Turn is stuff on time.


12 yo middle schoolers are not adults about to be out in the work force.
Anonymous
Post 09/05/2022 16:00     Subject: Re:“Due dates” and “deadlines”
We are talking about adults who will be out in the work world very soon. I'd give one day's grace period but after that, you get nada. As far as what the student learned, they learned a very valuable lesson. Turn is stuff on time.
Anonymous
Post 09/05/2022 15:39     Subject: Re:“Due dates” and “deadlines”
If we accept the premise that doing the assignments is part of the learning process, and that learning improves when students do the assignments, the value to this is obvious. In a system where not turning something in be the original due date means you get a zero no matter what, there is no incentive for a student who misses the original due date to ever do the assignment because they get a zero either way, and that student then misses the educational value of the assignment. Allowing partial credit for work turned in after the due date but before the deadline means a student who misses the due date for whatever reason still has an incentive to completely the assignment, and thus to get the educational value of the assignment. If the goal is education, why wouldn’t we want a system that incentivizes learning?
Anonymous
Post 09/05/2022 15:21     Subject: “Due dates” and “deadlines”
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately this is the kind of thing that happens at private schools. I went to a public school and learned that deadlines are real. In college they were real, or so I thought. In grad school (and teaching) I learned that there were two realities: deadlines for people who respect the rules and then flexible deadlines for entitled students who knew they could push back and ask for extensions for basically any reason.

I guess MoCo is going the private school way and tbh it’s not wrong, but I do hate it.


You are joking. My kid's private school gave you half credit the day after and none after that.


It was my experience when I taught college students that private high school grads were more likely to think deadlines were suggestions. I have no doubt there are exceptions and variations.



My DH is a professor at a Catholic university. His observation is that Catholic HS grads understand and respect deadlines more than public school students. He rarely has Catholic school grads trying to get him to accept late work. How does he know? He has students fill out questionnaires at the beginning of each course and one of the questions is about their educational background.


You know what, that’s a fair correction. I don’t have a lot of experience with Catholic high school grads and there’s huge variation in types of private schools.
Anonymous
Post 09/05/2022 15:00     Subject: “Due dates” and “deadlines”
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately this is the kind of thing that happens at private schools. I went to a public school and learned that deadlines are real. In college they were real, or so I thought. In grad school (and teaching) I learned that there were two realities: deadlines for people who respect the rules and then flexible deadlines for entitled students who knew they could push back and ask for extensions for basically any reason.

I guess MoCo is going the private school way and tbh it’s not wrong, but I do hate it.


You are joking. My kid's private school gave you half credit the day after and none after that.


It was my experience when I taught college students that private high school grads were more likely to think deadlines were suggestions. I have no doubt there are exceptions and variations.



My DH is a professor at a Catholic university. His observation is that Catholic HS grads understand and respect deadlines more than public school students. He rarely has Catholic school grads trying to get him to accept late work. How does he know? He has students fill out questionnaires at the beginning of each course and one of the questions is about their educational background.
Anonymous
Post 09/05/2022 14:30     Subject: “Due dates” and “deadlines”
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately this is the kind of thing that happens at private schools. I went to a public school and learned that deadlines are real. In college they were real, or so I thought. In grad school (and teaching) I learned that there were two realities: deadlines for people who respect the rules and then flexible deadlines for entitled students who knew they could push back and ask for extensions for basically any reason.

I guess MoCo is going the private school way and tbh it’s not wrong, but I do hate it.


You are joking. My kid's private school gave you half credit the day after and none after that.


It was my experience when I taught college students that private high school grads were more likely to think deadlines were suggestions. I have no doubt there are exceptions and variations.
Anonymous
Post 09/05/2022 09:10     Subject: “Due dates” and “deadlines”
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately this is the kind of thing that happens at private schools. I went to a public school and learned that deadlines are real. In college they were real, or so I thought. In grad school (and teaching) I learned that there were two realities: deadlines for people who respect the rules and then flexible deadlines for entitled students who knew they could push back and ask for extensions for basically any reason.

I guess MoCo is going the private school way and tbh it’s not wrong, but I do hate it.


You are joking. My kid's private school gave you half credit the day after and none after that.


So, they had a due date and a deadline.
Anonymous
Post 09/05/2022 09:08     Subject: “Due dates” and “deadlines”
Anonymous wrote:Unfortunately this is the kind of thing that happens at private schools. I went to a public school and learned that deadlines are real. In college they were real, or so I thought. In grad school (and teaching) I learned that there were two realities: deadlines for people who respect the rules and then flexible deadlines for entitled students who knew they could push back and ask for extensions for basically any reason.

I guess MoCo is going the private school way and tbh it’s not wrong, but I do hate it.


You are joking. My kid's private school gave you half credit the day after and none after that.
Anonymous
Post 09/05/2022 09:07     Subject: “Due dates” and “deadlines”
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain the difference?


The due date comes first. This is the official language in the regulation on grading and reporting:

Secondary teachers are responsible for the following:

a) Establishing due dates and deadlines.

(1) Teachers are expected to separate the due date from the deadline in order to increase opportunities for students to complete assignments.

(2) Work turned in after the due date and by the deadline may be lowered no more than one letter grade or 10 percent of the grade. Work submitted after the deadline will be recorded as a zero.


That’s really stupid and just reinforces kids not doing their work on time. If I were a teacher there every deadline would be 1 day after the due date.


Here’s the thing. You probably don’t have a child with legitimate struggles who can really learn and benefit from this practice. So it seems stupid. For those of us with kids who do struggle or who may not have easy access to resources such as internet, there is a significant benefit.

And, yes, in the workplace, deadlines are sometimes deadlines. But not always. I constantly see my coworkers asking for extensions of time to file a brief. But, even for jobs that have absolute deadlines that will never be moved and you’ll be fired if you miss, kids need time to learn and this practice provides that opportunity. Not everyone intuits time management and im glad that teachers in MCPS work with kids to learn this.


A child with legitimate struggles, who needs to learn time management, needs to be taught that the date for finishing the assignment is the day before it is due. Not after it is due. You are only confusing your child with executive management problems. If they mess up, you can deal with the teacher, but the entire system shouldn't be set up EXPECTING them to mess up.

Anonymous
Post 09/04/2022 20:32     Subject: Re:“Due dates” and “deadlines”
Anonymous wrote:Do people really think a kid who turns a paper in one day late shouldn’t get any credit for doing the work?

I went to college 30 years ago and professors docked late papers a letter grade, but they still accepted them.


In college you almost have to accept them because there are so few assignments. But yes they should be docked.
Anonymous
Post 09/04/2022 20:12     Subject: “Due dates” and “deadlines”
Unfortunately this is the kind of thing that happens at private schools. I went to a public school and learned that deadlines are real. In college they were real, or so I thought. In grad school (and teaching) I learned that there were two realities: deadlines for people who respect the rules and then flexible deadlines for entitled students who knew they could push back and ask for extensions for basically any reason.

I guess MoCo is going the private school way and tbh it’s not wrong, but I do hate it.
Anonymous
Post 09/03/2022 14:07     Subject: “Due dates” and “deadlines”
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:At BTSN last night we heard all about the difference between “due dates” and “deadlines.” I am a college professor and am so frustrated that this is what the kids learn at such an early age. The quality of students I see is going steadily down, with increased entitlement and expectations that course requirements are subject to negotiation, and now I have no question as to why that is. Its the same absurdity as the 50% rule.

Middle school kids (11-13 yr olds) and high school kids (14-17 yr olds) are very different from college students (18-21 yr olds) and their developmental capabilities are taken into consideration while they are learning how to organize and manage themselves. The reason for a difference between a due date and a deadline is so that there is an opportunity to intervene when a student misses the due date. MS & HS also have to account for students with accommodations who get 1.5x time or 2.0x to complete assignments. This year it was clarified that time accommodations apply to the due dates, not the deadlines. Teachers are supposed to set deadlines so that students with extended time have enough time to meet them. In practice, as students get to higher grades or take harder (AP/IB) classes, the flexibility should diminish.

If you are complaining about the most recent college students, remember that they just had 3 years where almost all accountability was thrown out due to the pandemic. This year MCPS is re-establishing previous practices, which will take a while to filter up to college enrollees.


Ohhh look how sanctimonious. Can you site any research for your insinuations? or is this something you pulled out of your seat?

You seem to totally underestimate the capabilities of students now a days.
Anonymous
Post 09/03/2022 12:07     Subject: Re:“Due dates” and “deadlines”
I think MCPS’s while grading system needs to be reworked. The due dates/deadlines don’t bother me as much as the 50% rule. What I think is an even bigger problem, however, is how much work isn’t graded but merely checked for completion.

Similarly, the default policy of offering retests I think reduces motivation to master something the first time. This is compounded by the lack of finals, providing little incentive to study for retention versus just remembering something long enough to pass a test.

The whole process seems to be focused on maximizing a student’s grade, rather than on maximizing a student’s content knowledge. I understand that kids can struggle, but if you want to give them a safety net, don’t rig the grading system. Instead, let teachers assign extra credit (currently banned) so that with extra work on the subject, a student can hopefully bring up both their grade and their level of relevant knowledge.