Anonymous
09/01/2022 08:31
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.
Fix it according to whom???
From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.
I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.
It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.
And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.
Signed, a writing professor
+1 and can I put this in all caps? College professors do not proofread essays! Your college kids will be on their own (except maybe for a writing center). Even more shocking, their future bosses will also not proofread their work for them!
(Insert sound of helicopter / lawnmower in the background)
No, but parents do proofread kids essays. As long as the essay is her idea and it’s things like “you used resilient twice in that sentence try to think of a synonym” or “I think the first paragraph might come across a bit flippant maybe tone that down” it’s fine. Obviously actually writing or rewriting it is not ok but it doesn’t sound like that’s what op was suggesting. On the other hand I definitely don’t think op should make a big deal if her daughter doesn’t want the input.
Anonymous
09/01/2022 08:24
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
Anonymous wrote:She spent an afternoon on what I thought would be the first draft, but she said she’s done, refused to edit or take feedbacks for even slight changes to improve the flow. She has good stats and is applying to some selective schools, I feel it is a waste of the application fee by not taking the essay seriously.
It has been two weeks and she insists she doesn’t need help with her essay. What can I do?
You an cut the apron strings. Natural consequences. If the essay sucks and it's the difference in admission or not, she'll find out.
Anonymous
09/01/2022 08:22
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
I would just tell her that it is critical that another pair of eyes look at it. Is she worried that they are going to throw out the idea and she has to start again? I personally wouldn't let her apply anywhere or pay for it until she did.
Anonymous
09/01/2022 08:20
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.
Fix it according to whom???
From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.
I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.
It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.
And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.
Signed, a writing professor
The good ones will. If they don’t most campuses also have writing centers.
THIS. WTF to all the people saying profs won't proofread. I taught writing at the grad school level in a specific field of writing. I would absolutely proofread and any good prof will, too. That's is part of the writing process.
Proofreading means searching for AND correcting errors. If you did that, you were not a good teacher. If students can just go to the writing center and have them dry clean the essay, they won’t learn how to proofread for themselves. Feedback is important. Pointing out some errors is important. But finding and correcting every single issue is counterproductive. Rather, writing professors should teach students how to recognize errors and how to correct them themselves.
For example, when I was a writing instructor, I would point out patterns of errors. I would point out the same error two to three times in comment bubbles, explain why it was an issue, and perhaps offer a different option of how to say it once. The other times, I would point out the error, and refer back to my first comment bubble with a specific reference to the comment number. Then I would write a global comment with all of the patterns listed and tell them to proofread their essay closely for these issues. In some cases, I might, in addition, yellow highlight other times they made these errors,, but without explaining the reason, thus forcing them to look at the global list of errors and try to figure out what they had done wrong.
No way would I proof and correct every issue. That is poor teaching because it means the student does not learn how to proof on their own.
Anonymous
09/01/2022 08:15
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
Tell your daughter that everyone needs an editor. Woodward and Bernstein had editors. Is she better than them?
Anonymous
09/01/2022 08:13
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
Anonymous wrote:Getting feedback is not the same as proofreading. Good writing instructors provide feedback but proofreading is for students and writing centers.
Good writing centers do not proofread. Rather they teach the students how to proofread themselves.
Anonymous
09/01/2022 08:12
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.
Fix it according to whom???
From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.
I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.
It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.
And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.
Signed, a writing professor
+1 and can I put this in all caps? College professors do not proofread essays! Your college kids will be on their own (except maybe for a writing center). Even more shocking, their future bosses will also not proofread their work for them!
(Insert sound of helicopter / lawnmower in the background)
My DC got lots of instruction and feedback about written assignments prior to handng them in. It was an incredibly valuable learning experience. Seek out professors that will help teach your college student to improve their writing.
So much ignorance about how to teach writing on this thread. Yes, feedback on writing is important. But not PROOFREADING. That is the student’s job.
Anonymous
09/01/2022 08:10
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.
Fix it according to whom???
From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.
I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.
It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.
And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.
Signed, a writing professor
The good ones will. If they don’t most campuses also have writing centers.
NO. Good writing teachers know that proofreading a student’s essay is counterproductive because it stops the student from learning how to do it herself. It’s called dry cleaning and is frowned upon. Rather, it is better to find a few examples of errors, explain why they are errors, and then tell the student to edit her paper looking for similar mistakes and correct them on her own.
Anonymous
09/01/2022 08:07
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.
Fix it according to whom???
From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.
I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.
It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.
And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.
Signed, a writing professor
The good ones will. If they don’t most campuses also have writing centers.
Writing centers might (I don’t know — never worked in or with one), but PP is right. Profs don’ t proofread essays. Some of us will read or skim drafts, but more for substance and/or whether the student is on the right track (doing what the assignment is asking them to do).
Maybe things have changed since I was in school, but isn’t feedback reflected in the grade the student receives? If all the feedback comes before submission, they’re going to ace every assignment.
Anonymous
09/01/2022 08:05
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.
Fix it according to whom???
From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.
I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.
It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.
And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.
Signed, a writing professor
The good ones will. If they don’t most campuses also have writing centers.
Writing centers, yes. Asking your lit prof to proofread your essay? No, wtf.
OP, are you going to control every aspect of her application? Decide now what control you need and set boundaries with her about what you’re going to insist on if you’re going to pay her app fees. I let my parents/sister proofread my essays… but then ignored some of their feedback. I’m sure my parents felt as you did; glad they didn’t make a huge fuss about it. I got in almost everywhere I applied, imperfect essays notwithstanding.
I had many professors in undergraduate and graduate schools ask to proofread larger assignments, often creating a writing process as part of the assignment. FWIW, I never used a writing center, always got the highest grades on writing assignments, and my thesis advisor said my first draft was better than most published articles in the professional journal he was editor for. He still made me fix it at least 20 times because there’s always room for improvements. Ten years later I heard they were using my final thesis as an example in one of the classes. Out of thousands of examples they picked two, and mine was one of them. That’s what happens when a good writer meets a better writer and engages in the writing process.
So I didn’t really need the help but learned a lot through all the feedback. I just can’t understand how you think this is so out there. How does anyone become a better writer, especially when dealing with a professional field of study that has very specific writing guidelines, if there isn’t guidance given along the way? Maybe for a 2-page essay on a random book that’s not necessary, but for major assignments written in specific formats to be used in your professional career how would you skip that? It’s asinine really to think someone would go through 4-8 years of college without this expectation.
Maybe we just had very different majors.
What you had was a workshop process. You wrote drafts, and your professor commented on them, you wrote a new draft the was one step beyond the previous, probably adding another layer of detail/analysis/research. You probably started with a thesis, got that reviewed, then an outline, then a draft, then a polished draft, then a final. I do this every day in my work, guiding mostly younger people (but many older people) to write strategy documents, proposals, etc at my organization. I use the same process myself and seek others to help with my writing.
That is not proofreading. My husband is an editor. He doesn’t do what I do with writers - he simply fixes their mistakes and lack of clarity, leaving their intended style and meaning intact, whether he likes it or not. Often when he pushes back on a writer saying if they changed xyz it would be much better they get annoyed and refuse, just like OP’s daughter. It isn’t rational, it’s about autonomy and control and feeling competent.
Anonymous
09/01/2022 08:05
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.
Fix it according to whom???
From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.
I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.
It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.
And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.
Signed, a writing professor
The good ones will. If they don’t most campuses also have writing centers.
Writing centers might (I don’t know — never worked in or with one), but PP is right. Profs don’ t proofread essays. Some of us will read or skim drafts, but more for substance and/or whether the student is on the right track (doing what the assignment is asking them to do).
This.
Anonymous
09/01/2022 08:04
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
Anonymous wrote:She spent an afternoon on what I thought would be the first draft, but she said she’s done, refused to edit or take feedbacks for even slight changes to improve the flow. She has good stats and is applying to some selective schools, I feel it is a waste of the application fee by not taking the essay seriously.
It has been two weeks and she insists she doesn’t need help with her essay. What can I do?
You can suggest that she use the tools available at school and get her college advisor to take a look. You can point out a serious flaw in the writing and see if she bites, but at the end of the day, this is her work and her life. Maybe the essay will change her trajectory, maybe it won’t. You can’t and shouldn’t smooth this road out for her beyond some constructive conversations.
Anonymous
09/01/2022 08:03
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
You can't let this go, OP. This IS something worth persuading/bribing/threatening your daughter over. I can promise you that admissions officers read essays - it's fine if there are stylistic errors and awkward parts, actually. It has to be your child's voice, and not someone else's, and they are perfectly aware that children don't have much experience writing about themselves. They've very good at identifying editing from other people
But she has to work on CONTENT. What did she learn from her experiences? They're looking for maturity and perspective on whatever she did. That's very different from writing style. It's about whether her thoughts are interesting. Ultimately, they can tell who is smart and who isn't.
Anonymous
09/01/2022 07:59
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.
Fix it according to whom???
From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.
I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.
It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.
And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.
Signed, a writing professor
The good ones will. If they don’t most campuses also have writing centers.
Writing centers might (I don’t know — never worked in or with one), but PP is right. Profs don’ t proofread essays. Some of us will read or skim drafts, but more for substance and/or whether the student is on the right track (doing what the assignment is asking them to do).
Anonymous
09/01/2022 07:57
Subject: DD refused to edit her essay..
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Tell her you will not pay for the application fee until she fixes it. She can fix it or find a way to pay for it herself.
Fix it according to whom???
From an ethical standpoint, the essay should be only the child’s work. Forcing a kid to take someone else’s edits or not apply is absurd and wrong.
I didn’t say force her I just wouldn’t pay for the application. Having someone proofread an essay is not unethical, many college professors will proofread essays during office hours if asked. The fact that she’s being completely stubborn and unwilling to receive feedback is why I wouldn’t pay for it. If she agreed to meet with a teacher or librarian that could make suggestions I’d be ok with that whether she takes the suggestions and applies them or not. Allowing a child to completely disregard the draft writing process for an essay when they’re applying to college just sets them up to think this will be ok in college as well. The point is to teach the lesson and help expand essay writing abilities and learn to accept feedback as part of the process, not to force changes.
It’s her essay. It’s her writing. The college is judging her.
And no, good professors don’t proofread essays. They might point out several examples of errors or poor stylistic choices and then tell the student to carefully read their paper and find similar errors and fix them. They do NOT proofread. Please do not teach your kid that she should ask her college professors to proofread her essay in office hours.
Signed, a writing professor
The good ones will. If they don’t most campuses also have writing centers.
THIS. WTF to all the people saying profs won't proofread. I taught writing at the grad school level in a specific field of writing. I would absolutely proofread and any good prof will, too. That's is part of the writing process.