Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone else think this is a sign that something is off? Full disclosure, I think you should have to sit for the exam to receive AP credit (I think school districts should pay for it). To get the GPA and rigor bump of an AP but not be prepared for the test makes no sense to me.

This is a systemic problem - so understand why kids would not subject themselves to the test if it doesn’t matter - but I think it devalues the AP distinction.

Agree. It’s the AP arms race at its finest. Thank you, Jay Matthews and the Challenge Index. Combine that with grade inflation and easy standards and this is the result: kids getting As in the class but 3 or under on the exam.

Full disclosure for me is that my kids go to private schools that do not offer APs. I feel very strongly that the CB has their hooks in our education system and is laughing all the way to the bank. I get it, though, if your school offers AP, you basically have to take it for college purposes.

I don’t think you understand AP courses very well. Many of them have challenging and difficult content and give you a good foundation for college.
I would say it takes a few years to figure out how to optimally teach an AP course. So if you have a teacher who has taught it for 3 years or less, they could be doing their best but will likely fall short. It is often tricky to get the pacing right. It took me until year 5 when I felt I finally nailed it and my students scores dramatically improved. I also teach an AP course that is considered very difficult and has a low pass rate

My son just had World History taught by a very inexperienced, perhaps first-time, teacher. He was nice, but oh so bad! Most of the class lost all hope of a good grade or a good exam score. My son trudged on until the bitter end, squeaked by with a final grade of A (by the seat of his pants) and got a 5 in the exam. But it was a terrible experience compare to his other APs with experienced teachers. I only wish someone could give these new teachers more training right from the start, PP. When college admissions are on the line, it's not fair for AP students to get a dud teacher.

With the teacher shortage, this is only going to get worse.
Training is helpful but can only do so much. Every school is different. Student populations are different every where including background knowledge and preparation coming into class. How many other courses is the teacher teaching? Every teacher has their own style and needs to adapt content to how they teach best. Is this even the teacher’s area of expertise or is the teacher one step ahead of the kids. It takes a few years for everything to fall into place and that is if you start with a smart hardworking teacher who wants to improve

I am a very experienced teacher who teaches honors and AP. I appreciate the desire for experience and I agree that students will have a better outcome with an experienced teacher. There are several problems with this line of thought, however:

1. It also takes tremendous experience to teach on-level classes. There is usually more need for differentiation and scaffolding, which are skills that come with experience. Students registered for those classes equally deserve experienced teachers. I worked in a school that prioritized on-level classes and placed experienced teachers there in an understandable effort to help lower-performing students.

2. Everybody has to start somewhere. I am a well-regarded teacher, but I didn’t do as well my first year teaching advanced courses. There is a huge learning curve! I spent every single evening preparing for the next day, researching in preparation for anticipated questions, etc. 70-hour weeks were normal. Perhaps I did a disservice to some students that year because I was so inexperienced, but how would I have gotten to be the teacher I am today without that year?

3. Even your inexperienced teachers in an AP or IB level class have received extra training. Many voluntarily go to trainings over the summer to learn the latest changes to exams, required skills, etc. Your “dud” teacher mentioned above did have this training.

I wish all students could benefit from experienced teachers, but that isn’t reality. It’s actually going to become less common as teachers continue to retire or quit. I’m planning on sticking with it because I am generally an optimist who can push aside the worst parts of the job, but I’m watching coworkers leave every year and most are simply leaving teaching.

Anonymous wrote:Not this year, but my DC in MCPS got a 5 in AP Gov as a freshman and a 5 in APUSH as a sophomore. I think that's a better order for those two.

I agree this order is preferable and am glad DS’s school does it this way. Maybe parents at other schools could advocate for a sequence swap?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone else think this is a sign that something is off? Full disclosure, I think you should have to sit for the exam to receive AP credit (I think school districts should pay for it). To get the GPA and rigor bump of an AP but not be prepared for the test makes no sense to me.

This is a systemic problem - so understand why kids would not subject themselves to the test if it doesn’t matter - but I think it devalues the AP distinction.

Agree. It’s the AP arms race at its finest. Thank you, Jay Matthews and the Challenge Index. Combine that with grade inflation and easy standards and this is the result: kids getting As in the class but 3 or under on the exam.

Full disclosure for me is that my kids go to private schools that do not offer APs. I feel very strongly that the CB has their hooks in our education system and is laughing all the way to the bank. I get it, though, if your school offers AP, you basically have to take it for college purposes.

I don’t think you understand AP courses very well. Many of them have challenging and difficult content and give you a good foundation for college.
I would say it takes a few years to figure out how to optimally teach an AP course. So if you have a teacher who has taught it for 3 years or less, they could be doing their best but will likely fall short. It is often tricky to get the pacing right. It took me until year 5 when I felt I finally nailed it and my students scores dramatically improved. I also teach an AP course that is considered very difficult and has a low pass rate

They give an excellent foundation for college. They wee designed by teams of college professors and high school teachers and are graded by these same groups. I regularly had my students come back to tell me their freshman and sophomore years of college were significantly easier for them than for their classmates who hadn't taken AP (or IB) classes.

Interesting because there are multiple posts here and elsewhere from college profs who feel these test do not prepare kids for college:

College prof here. Content coverage is solid but, generally speaking, insufficient depth, critical thinking, and analytical writing to prep for a college course imo. IB courses much more effective in those respects. I consider AP courses valuable to a point but students who receive AP course credit and opt out of college intro courses do not tend to do well in intermediate and UL coursework.

Not this year, but my DC in MCPS got a 5 in AP Gov as a freshman and a 5 in APUSH as a sophomore. I think that's a better order for those two.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone else think this is a sign that something is off? Full disclosure, I think you should have to sit for the exam to receive AP credit (I think school districts should pay for it). To get the GPA and rigor bump of an AP but not be prepared for the test makes no sense to me.

This is a systemic problem - so understand why kids would not subject themselves to the test if it doesn’t matter - but I think it devalues the AP distinction.

Agree. It’s the AP arms race at its finest. Thank you, Jay Matthews and the Challenge Index. Combine that with grade inflation and easy standards and this is the result: kids getting As in the class but 3 or under on the exam.

Full disclosure for me is that my kids go to private schools that do not offer APs. I feel very strongly that the CB has their hooks in our education system and is laughing all the way to the bank. I get it, though, if your school offers AP, you basically have to take it for college purposes.

I don’t think you understand AP courses very well. Many of them have challenging and difficult content and give you a good foundation for college.
I would say it takes a few years to figure out how to optimally teach an AP course. So if you have a teacher who has taught it for 3 years or less, they could be doing their best but will likely fall short. It is often tricky to get the pacing right. It took me until year 5 when I felt I finally nailed it and my students scores dramatically improved. I also teach an AP course that is considered very difficult and has a low pass rate

They give an excellent foundation for college. They wee designed by teams of college professors and high school teachers and are graded by these same groups. I regularly had my students come back to tell me their freshman and sophomore years of college were significantly easier for them than for their classmates who hadn't taken AP (or IB) classes.

Interesting because there are multiple posts here and elsewhere from college profs who feel these test do not prepare kids for college:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone have a kid whose scores are still “in progress?” Or if this happened to your child in a previous year how long did it take to get them?

This happened to my DC last year and it took about a day for the score to show up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone else think this is a sign that something is off? Full disclosure, I think you should have to sit for the exam to receive AP credit (I think school districts should pay for it). To get the GPA and rigor bump of an AP but not be prepared for the test makes no sense to me.

This is a systemic problem - so understand why kids would not subject themselves to the test if it doesn’t matter - but I think it devalues the AP distinction.

Agree. It’s the AP arms race at its finest. Thank you, Jay Matthews and the Challenge Index. Combine that with grade inflation and easy standards and this is the result: kids getting As in the class but 3 or under on the exam.

Full disclosure for me is that my kids go to private schools that do not offer APs. I feel very strongly that the CB has their hooks in our education system and is laughing all the way to the bank. I get it, though, if your school offers AP, you basically have to take it for college purposes.

I don’t think you understand AP courses very well. Many of them have challenging and difficult content and give you a good foundation for college.
I would say it takes a few years to figure out how to optimally teach an AP course. So if you have a teacher who has taught it for 3 years or less, they could be doing their best but will likely fall short. It is often tricky to get the pacing right. It took me until year 5 when I felt I finally nailed it and my students scores dramatically improved. I also teach an AP course that is considered very difficult and has a low pass rate

My son just had World History taught by a very inexperienced, perhaps first-time, teacher. He was nice, but oh so bad! Most of the class lost all hope of a good grade or a good exam score. My son trudged on until the bitter end, squeaked by with a final grade of A (by the seat of his pants) and got a 5 in the exam. But it was a terrible experience compare to his other APs with experienced teachers. I only wish someone could give these new teachers more training right from the start, PP. When college admissions are on the line, it's not fair for AP students to get a dud teacher.

If I were an admin, I would prioritize AP as well, but I think the reason I didn’t mention that (though many have) is there are new teachers at every school every year, so doesn’t seem to be an AP specific issue exactly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Does anyone else think this is a sign that something is off? Full disclosure, I think you should have to sit for the exam to receive AP credit (I think school districts should pay for it). To get the GPA and rigor bump of an AP but not be prepared for the test makes no sense to me.

This is a systemic problem - so understand why kids would not subject themselves to the test if it doesn’t matter - but I think it devalues the AP distinction.

Agree. It’s the AP arms race at its finest. Thank you, Jay Matthews and the Challenge Index. Combine that with grade inflation and easy standards and this is the result: kids getting As in the class but 3 or under on the exam.

Full disclosure for me is that my kids go to private schools that do not offer APs. I feel very strongly that the CB has their hooks in our education system and is laughing all the way to the bank. I get it, though, if your school offers AP, you basically have to take it for college purposes.

I don’t think you understand AP courses very well. Many of them have challenging and difficult content and give you a good foundation for college.
I would say it takes a few years to figure out how to optimally teach an AP course. So if you have a teacher who has taught it for 3 years or less, they could be doing their best but will likely fall short. It is often tricky to get the pacing right. It took me until year 5 when I felt I finally nailed it and my students scores dramatically improved. I also teach an AP course that is considered very difficult and has a low pass rate

My son just had World History taught by a very inexperienced, perhaps first-time, teacher. He was nice, but oh so bad! Most of the class lost all hope of a good grade or a good exam score. My son trudged on until the bitter end, squeaked by with a final grade of A (by the seat of his pants) and got a 5 in the exam. But it was a terrible experience compare to his other APs with experienced teachers. I only wish someone could give these new teachers more training right from the start, PP. When college admissions are on the line, it's not fair for AP students to get a dud teacher.

With the teacher shortage, this is only going to get worse.
Training is helpful but can only do so much. Every school is different. Student populations are different every where including background knowledge and preparation coming into class. How many other courses is the teacher teaching? Every teacher has their own style and needs to adapt content to how they teach best. Is this even the teacher’s area of expertise or is the teacher one step ahead of the kids. It takes a few years for everything to fall into place and that is if you start with a smart hardworking teacher who wants to improve

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DS who was straight A grades all year in APUSH and he studied like a demon for the exam, only got a 3

It's called grade inflation.

Why do people so rarely think the teacher might be the issue?

Several of us have pointed out that teacher experience is KEY for AP courses.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Mine scored a 3 on AP CS and Seminar- ouch!

5 on AP Gov and 3 on AP CS. We were thrilled on both counts. DC has been challenged as a freshman and now has interest in law and politics based on class - so win/win.

And no prep outside class for either one. Did great on the practical for the CS, but the other 1/2 tripped DC up.

Anonymous wrote:Freshman daughter got a 4 on AP Gov exam. She had a tutor to prep (her request, not mine).

Where did you find the tutor?

Anonymous wrote:Mine scored a 3 on AP CS and Seminar- ouch!

5 on AP Gov and 3 on AP CS. We were thrilled on both counts. DC has been challenged as a freshman and now has interest in law and politics based on class - so win/win.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DS who was straight A grades all year in APUSH and he studied like a demon for the exam, only got a 3

It's called grade inflation.

Why do people so rarely think the teacher might be the issue?

Totally forgot that the scores were out until I saw this thread

Freshman DS got a 4 on AP French exam.

Freshman daughter got a 4 on AP Gov exam. She had a tutor to prep (her request, not mine).