Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that the trans community doesn't have an agenda any more than the gay community does. Our (speaking as a nontrans member of the queer community) big idea is to live our lives without being harassed. So don't harass (and encourage the other people in your life to not harass), respect pronouns, and generally listen to each individual trans person you interact with to better understand what they would find most supportive.

I went out to eat over the weekend and some of the other patrons literally stared at me the ENTIRE TIME. I'm visibly trans if I present as a woman or a man and usually people look at me then look away. I notice it but that's not too big of a deal. I was eating and this man that was sitting diagonally from me was sort of turned in his chair to face me and he looked at me the ENTIRE TIME. Like who does that? Thankfully I live in a safe area and while it made me uncomfortable, I wasn't afraid. Some people see a trans person and act like we're zoo animals to observe.

Anonymous wrote:It's a little odd to me that you think transgirls are the least safe.

If gender is truly a construct and a spectrum you put matching genitals with other matching genitals.

Why?

To avoid pregnancy and issues of coercion and consent.

Do none of you remember being teens? Things like pressure? Experimentation? Poor decision-making?

I don't think you have a good understanding of the effects of HRT on the body based on what you've written here.

The other thing is that you seem to be making the assumption that a trans girl that's medically transitioning may coerce cis girls to have sex with her (unless you mean the cis girls are going to coerce the trans girl into sex?) and cis boys would not do the same to a trans girl? Or are you thinking that a trans girl that's on HRT is going to look like a boy physically and be of no interest to a cis boy?

Men do that. To women.

You have people turn on their chair at a 45 degree angle and stare at you the entire time? Like half an hour? When they're sitting across from their girlfriend? That's not, in my experience, something I've experienced or seen in my life. I'm pretty sure he was doing it because I'm trans. If I was passing, I seriously doubt it would have happened. I was dressed as a man at the time but I'm visibly transgender because of my chest.

Women? Yes, we’ve experienced that….and worse.

We chat about this androgynous look we go for; it keeps people guessing and fun to be fluid.

Anonymous wrote:How do summer camps handle it?

School campovers are messes now with all the girl/girl, boy/girl, boy/boy tent action.

You do NOT want to be the 3rd or 4rd wheel in a tent with a couple of any orientation or experimentation. So uncomfortable and awkward, and rude frankly.

As for summer camps, a handful advertise lgbtquia2+ friendly and attract that. Others have to go tent by tent and make sure everyone in comfortable and safe, and it anxious/not sleeping or worried.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:How do summer camps handle it?

This is actually a good question. My daughter is working at an all-girls overnight camp this summer. I wonder if they have had to deal with trans issues yet. I know they had a lot of girl-couples last year.

Summer camps are moving in the direction of offering "gender diverse" cabins. So you will have a boy's cabin, a girl's cabin, and then a gender diverse cabin that is a mix of gender fluid, trans, and questioning kids.

Anonymous wrote:The other question I’ve thought about is how boarding schools treat it. I went to one back in the early 00s. Girls and boys weren’t allowed to room together and there were rules about girls visiting boys in their room and vice versa.

Of course, same-sex couples can get around all of those rules, and then there’s the issue of how to house trans kids so that they are comfortable and safe.

I know someone who transitioned while at boarding school. It was rough — she was in the boys dorms until senior year. The way they handled it was she couldn’t move into the girls dorms until every girl and her parents was comfortable with a trans girl living in the same house as them. I think Junior year, when she was generally out but living with the boys was the worst for her. To be clear — the school was nice and she was generally very safe physically but she has really bad dysmorphia in general as a teen and especially her junior year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a little odd to me that you think transgirls are the least safe.

If gender is truly a construct and a spectrum you put matching genitals with other matching genitals.

Why?

To avoid pregnancy and issues of coercion and consent.

Do none of you remember being teens? Things like pressure? Experimentation? Poor decision-making?

Kids find a way to have sex regardless of where they sleep on a trip. Don’t you remember being a teen?

Overall, kids are safest when you don’t misgender them.

Thieves will find a way to steal. Does that mean you don't lock your door?

The most likely scenario for something to go wrong is forcing transgender girls into rooms with cisgender boys.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's a little odd to me that you think transgirls are the least safe.

If gender is truly a construct and a spectrum you put matching genitals with other matching genitals.

Why?

To avoid pregnancy and issues of coercion and consent.

Do none of you remember being teens? Things like pressure? Experimentation? Poor decision-making?

Kids find a way to have sex regardless of where they sleep on a trip. Don’t you remember being a teen?

Overall, kids are safest when you don’t misgender them.

Thieves will find a way to steal. Does that mean you don't lock your door?

The other question I’ve thought about is how boarding schools treat it. I went to one back in the early 00s. Girls and boys weren’t allowed to room together and there were rules about girls visiting boys in their room and vice versa.

Of course, same-sex couples can get around all of those rules, and then there’s the issue of how to house trans kids so that they are comfortable and safe.

Anonymous wrote:How do summer camps handle it?

This is actually a good question. My daughter is working at an all-girls overnight camp this summer. I wonder if they have had to deal with trans issues yet. I know they had a lot of girl-couples last year.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not insisting on anything and Im guessing the kids will be more accepting than parents. Im thinking about safety. To me the least safe combo would be a trans girl having to room with two guys who are not accepting

Yeah, putting a trans girl in a room with two cis boys who were not accepting would definitely be unsafe and even with accepting boys could be dysphoric. Shared spaces like this can be pretty fraught if you're trans.

Everyone talks about trans girls, but in today's environment it is more likely it will be a trans boy. Would you be okay with a transboy rooming with two cis boys? You don't think that would be problematic in anyway?

20:09 - I would either segregate rooms based on sex or put transkids in their own room.

I wouldn't have a problem allowing a transboy to room with cisgirls, but then that means the teens are rooming based on sex not gender so transgirls would therefore room with cisboys.

The transboy may not want to sleep in the same room as cis girls. I understand that. So that is why the other option should be their own room.

In today's environment, you are going to encounter more trans boys than you will trans girls.

This is such a weird thing to do. Just put the trans kids with their friends so long as all the kids and their parents are fine with it. The consent of all involved is very important. In my head, I'm picturing you sticking a trans girl that's on hormones and looks like a cis girl since she probably would have been on blockers, with some cis boys and assuming that because they all have the same genitals that everything is fine.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that the trans community doesn't have an agenda any more than the gay community does. Our (speaking as a nontrans member of the queer community) big idea is to live our lives without being harassed. So don't harass (and encourage the other people in your life to not harass), respect pronouns, and generally listen to each individual trans person you interact with to better understand what they would find most supportive.

I went out to eat over the weekend and some of the other patrons literally stared at me the ENTIRE TIME. I'm visibly trans if I present as a woman or a man and usually people look at me then look away. I notice it but that's not too big of a deal. I was eating and this man that was sitting diagonally from me was sort of turned in his chair to face me and he looked at me the ENTIRE TIME. Like who does that? Thankfully I live in a safe area and while it made me uncomfortable, I wasn't afraid. Some people see a trans person and act like we're zoo animals to observe.

Anonymous wrote:It's a little odd to me that you think transgirls are the least safe.

If gender is truly a construct and a spectrum you put matching genitals with other matching genitals.

Why?

To avoid pregnancy and issues of coercion and consent.

Do none of you remember being teens? Things like pressure? Experimentation? Poor decision-making?

I don't think you have a good understanding of the effects of HRT on the body based on what you've written here.

The other thing is that you seem to be making the assumption that a trans girl that's medically transitioning may coerce cis girls to have sex with her (unless you mean the cis girls are going to coerce the trans girl into sex?) and cis boys would not do the same to a trans girl? Or are you thinking that a trans girl that's on HRT is going to look like a boy physically and be of no interest to a cis boy?

Men do that. To women.

You have people turn on their chair at a 45 degree angle and stare at you the entire time? Like half an hour? When they're sitting across from their girlfriend? That's not, in my experience, something I've experienced or seen in my life. I'm pretty sure he was doing it because I'm trans. If I was passing, I seriously doubt it would have happened. I was dressed as a man at the time but I'm visibly transgender because of my chest.

Women? Yes, we’ve experienced that….and worse.

Good LORD yes! I remember in college, two large members of the football team stood on either side of me at lunch a few times and said nothing. Just stared. Finally one day, one of them managed two words: "nice t*ts". That same guy showed up at my dorm room asking for me one Sat. evening (I was visiting home) acting very strangely, my roommate said. Found out on Monday that he was in jail for raping a girl at knifepoint 1/2 hour after visiting my room.

Oh my god. That went from gross to just the worst possible place. I'm so sorry and I stand corrected.

I guess I don't think he was viewing me as a woman but as a trans person because as I said, I'm just so visibly transgender when you look at me. If you saw me, you would be like, that's a trans person.

Anonymous wrote:I am a woman who has been harassed and ogled, but it is different, not better or worse, just different, when people stare at you as an oddity. I'm in a weird position of understanding this better now.

I want to be clear that I am NOT comparing being trans to being broken or deformed before I go on. But I recently experienced a huge physical change and people,. mostly women, cannot stop staring at this body part. It makes you feel weird and other and uncomfortable.

I wish I could really articulate how it's different than lewd eyeballing, but it is.

One makes me angry and scared and it isn't constant everywhere I go. The other....just sad and self conscious , constantly.

I get it and I'm so sorry you're being treated like that. It's not something I'd wish on anyone. Under the right conditions and if I go hyper feminine in my presentation, which isn't something I do all the time due to the amount of work it takes, I can be perceived as a cis woman if someone doesn't stare at my face too long from a close distance. My body 100% passes. I have definitely experienced both the male gaze and the othering looks. It makes you not want to leave your home. It makes you feel like you're in some 1920's side show. The only difference is that people would be ashamed to point and laugh these days but they stare and laugh with their eyes. Just existing can be difficult. Most people will look away if you lock eyes with them for five seconds. It's only something I would do in a public safe place. I would never do that when I'm alone or at night in a parking lot or something.

I am a woman who has been harassed and ogled, but it is different, not better or worse, just different, when people stare at you as an oddity. I'm in a weird position of understanding this better now.

I want to be clear that I am NOT comparing being trans to being broken or deformed before I go on. But I recently experienced a huge physical change and people,. mostly women, cannot stop staring at this body part. It makes you feel weird and other and uncomfortable.

I wish I could really articulate how it's different than lewd eyeballing, but it is.

One makes me angry and scared and it isn't constant everywhere I go. The other....just sad and self conscious , constantly.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that the trans community doesn't have an agenda any more than the gay community does. Our (speaking as a nontrans member of the queer community) big idea is to live our lives without being harassed. So don't harass (and encourage the other people in your life to not harass), respect pronouns, and generally listen to each individual trans person you interact with to better understand what they would find most supportive.

I went out to eat over the weekend and some of the other patrons literally stared at me the ENTIRE TIME. I'm visibly trans if I present as a woman or a man and usually people look at me then look away. I notice it but that's not too big of a deal. I was eating and this man that was sitting diagonally from me was sort of turned in his chair to face me and he looked at me the ENTIRE TIME. Like who does that? Thankfully I live in a safe area and while it made me uncomfortable, I wasn't afraid. Some people see a trans person and act like we're zoo animals to observe.

Anonymous wrote:It's a little odd to me that you think transgirls are the least safe.

If gender is truly a construct and a spectrum you put matching genitals with other matching genitals.

Why?

To avoid pregnancy and issues of coercion and consent.

Do none of you remember being teens? Things like pressure? Experimentation? Poor decision-making?

I don't think you have a good understanding of the effects of HRT on the body based on what you've written here.

The other thing is that you seem to be making the assumption that a trans girl that's medically transitioning may coerce cis girls to have sex with her (unless you mean the cis girls are going to coerce the trans girl into sex?) and cis boys would not do the same to a trans girl? Or are you thinking that a trans girl that's on HRT is going to look like a boy physically and be of no interest to a cis boy?

Men do that. To women.

You have people turn on their chair at a 45 degree angle and stare at you the entire time? Like half an hour? When they're sitting across from their girlfriend? That's not, in my experience, something I've experienced or seen in my life. I'm pretty sure he was doing it because I'm trans. If I was passing, I seriously doubt it would have happened. I was dressed as a man at the time but I'm visibly transgender because of my chest.

Women? Yes, we’ve experienced that….and worse.

Good LORD yes! I remember in college, two large members of the football team stood on either side of me at lunch a few times and said nothing. Just stared. Finally one day, one of them managed two words: "nice t*ts". That same guy showed up at my dorm room asking for me one Sat. evening (I was visiting home) acting very strangely, my roommate said. Found out on Monday that he was in jail for raping a girl at knifepoint 1/2 hour after visiting my room.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that the trans community doesn't have an agenda any more than the gay community does. Our (speaking as a nontrans member of the queer community) big idea is to live our lives without being harassed. So don't harass (and encourage the other people in your life to not harass), respect pronouns, and generally listen to each individual trans person you interact with to better understand what they would find most supportive.

I went out to eat over the weekend and some of the other patrons literally stared at me the ENTIRE TIME. I'm visibly trans if I present as a woman or a man and usually people look at me then look away. I notice it but that's not too big of a deal. I was eating and this man that was sitting diagonally from me was sort of turned in his chair to face me and he looked at me the ENTIRE TIME. Like who does that? Thankfully I live in a safe area and while it made me uncomfortable, I wasn't afraid. Some people see a trans person and act like we're zoo animals to observe.

Anonymous wrote:It's a little odd to me that you think transgirls are the least safe.

If gender is truly a construct and a spectrum you put matching genitals with other matching genitals.

Why?

To avoid pregnancy and issues of coercion and consent.

Do none of you remember being teens? Things like pressure? Experimentation? Poor decision-making?

I don't think you have a good understanding of the effects of HRT on the body based on what you've written here.

The other thing is that you seem to be making the assumption that a trans girl that's medically transitioning may coerce cis girls to have sex with her (unless you mean the cis girls are going to coerce the trans girl into sex?) and cis boys would not do the same to a trans girl? Or are you thinking that a trans girl that's on HRT is going to look like a boy physically and be of no interest to a cis boy?

Men do that. To women.

You have people turn on their chair at a 45 degree angle and stare at you the entire time? Like half an hour? When they're sitting across from their girlfriend? That's not, in my experience, something I've experienced or seen in my life. I'm pretty sure he was doing it because I'm trans. If I was passing, I seriously doubt it would have happened. I was dressed as a man at the time but I'm visibly transgender because of my chest.

Women? Yes, we’ve experienced that….and worse.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m not insisting on anything and Im guessing the kids will be more accepting than parents. Im thinking about safety. To me the least safe combo would be a trans girl having to room with two guys who are not accepting

Yeah, putting a trans girl in a room with two cis boys who were not accepting would definitely be unsafe and even with accepting boys could be dysphoric. Shared spaces like this can be pretty fraught if you're trans.

Everyone talks about trans girls, but in today's environment it is more likely it will be a trans boy. Would you be okay with a transboy rooming with two cis boys? You don't think that would be problematic in anyway?

20:09 - I would either segregate rooms based on sex or put transkids in their own room.

I wouldn't have a problem allowing a transboy to room with cisgirls, but then that means the teens are rooming based on sex not gender so transgirls would therefore room with cisboys.

The transboy may not want to sleep in the same room as cis girls. I understand that. So that is why the other option should be their own room.

In today's environment, you are going to encounter more trans boys than you will trans girls.

Anonymous wrote:I am asking this not to start an argument but because I want to understand and figure out how I can be an ally: What is it, exactly, that the trans community wants? Is there a list of action items or something I can see that will help me figure out how to focus my efforts? I mean not being killed and discriminated against is a given and since I don't do either I am wondering if there are some other ways I can help.

What “efforts” do you want to “focus?”

Why do you think it is incumbent on you, specifically, to step up?

Just treat people with respect and how they want to be treated. That’s enough. It isn’t your place to make some big production of being an “ally” or whatever. It’s not about you.