Anonymous wrote:PP above- I want to clarify that I’m not saying that kids who act out always have abusive parents, but rather there’s often something like developmental delays or mental illness or sensory processing challenges behind a child’s behavior.

I agree, and my first thought when I read the OP was actually autism. Often what autistic kids need are things that are considered indulgent by other parents. Parents who are doing a good job raising their autistic kids would probably be accused of having bad boundaries. I have no idea what’s going on with the people OP is talking about but I would assume that a) they are doing their best and b) the kids have special needs and they need something different from what they’re getting.

PP above- I want to clarify that I’m not saying that kids who act out always have abusive parents, but rather there’s often something like developmental delays or mental illness or sensory processing challenges behind a child’s behavior.

I have a sibling with what would now be diagnosed as developmental delays and mental illness, but were ignored in the 80s. My late father probably had autism and my mother was and is severely depressed. They did not have coping skills to manage the challenges of everyday adult life. On the outside, my mother went to great lengths to make us look like a clean-cut, preppy, perfect family. At home, she did everything to try to cover my brother’s deficits and mold me into the daughter she wanted versus who I actually was. She hit and slapped me and the slightest deviations from what she saw as an ideal child resulted in physical and verbal abuse. However, I don’t think anyone ever witnessed her behavior toward me in public.

Once in a while, though, things would leak out and neighbors would see my brother and I in violent physical fights and screaming matches. That was how we learned to deal with frustration, disappointment, disagreement, etc. I’m sure the neighbors wondered what was going on.

There is always something going on.

Agree that parents of SN kids have to figure out, one way or another, that you have to parent the kid you have. Our kid (ADHD+anxiety) has always been a little "extra" - seemingly an angel to others, but stubborn and difficult with us. We have learned that she deals with some sensory stuff that makes moving through the world just a little harder for her than others. She seems to be a super smeller and struggles with loud noises & chaos, so outings and interactions that feel normal to us (e.g., going to a crowded restaurant, attending a street fair, school cafeteria, etc.) really takes a toll on her. It shows up as difficult behavior and irritability and no amount of parental discipline is going to improve anyone's day.

I have a friend with an extremely difficult child (adopted from an abusive family). She tried really hard to be a good parent. She went to parenting classes and read parenting books and tried everything, including consistent boundaries.

The problem was that these parenting strategies weren’t enough for her kid. He needed specialized therapy plus her super-parenting. And specialized therapy is not easy to come across and it’s not like you get an instruction manual when you become a parent that your kid might need specialized therapy.

Now that he is getting twice-weekly individual therapy, family therapy, group therapy at school, and my friend is getting group parenting classes plus individual therapy centered on parenting, he’s doing okay. Oh and then there is the IEP. And he still hits her sometimes.

I think parents of kids who have extreme issues are judged too harshly. All these “inconsistent boundaries” posters likely would do a mediocre job parenting my friend’s kid.

But yeah OP your friends probably need to get their kids into intensive therapy and they need parenting classes for their kids’ specific issues, not general parenting classes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents don't know how to be adults and parent properly.

They have themselves not been raised with consistent and present parents.

Do these parents both WOH or is one a SAHP?

+1

If one parent is (for example) SAH, and stays upstairs in bed or watching late night reruns, while the other is (for example) spending time around strip club type atmospheres, the kid is absolutely being neglected. It may be years, if ever, for this kid to catch up, sadly. The kid didn't stand a chance at learning proper skills.

I've seen it.

Anxiety

Yes. One of mine has severe ADHD and defiant behavior. They have altered brains and the abnormality is seen on the MRI. My other one is an angel and I've parented them the same.

https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/315884

I wish I knew. I was blessed with one child that has always been an angel. And one child that makes me want to tear my hair out.

I love them both more than life but I can't figure out for the life of me why my "difficult" child behaves so badly at times.

I discipline them both consistently but I know I must be doing something wrong.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The part about scratching and bruising their parents makes me think that there is a mental health issue and not just a parenting issue. Even parents who are bad at discipline and boundaries Won’t have kids scratching their faces and bruising them.

When I first met the mom, she had some scratches. I thought she had a cat. Later learned the kid scratched her. Kid was a toddler so I thought nothing of it. It is many years later and oldest is now 9. Dad had scratches and bruises recently from the girl. I have seen both girls have massive screaming throwing fits over very small things like food not being exactly how she wanted it or flavor ice cream ran out.

What you describe goes beyond "difficult personality," OP. Especially if the parents haven't figured out in all these years how to reduce the physical aggression, something's up (something you're not aware of). Situations that extreme are almost always some combination of genes and environment.

I don’t think the parents are violent. You are right. I don’t know what happens behind closed doors.

I didn't necessarily mean that the parents are violent; there are many things that could contribute to that dynamic.

My 10 year old DD can be difficult at times, and we've worked hard over the past few years to improve our dynamic and help her better understand things that negatively influence her moods. But having kids that old physically harm their parents, regularly, and have temper tantrums that extreme, is unusual.

+1

The parents don't have to be violent, just checked out and/or selfish and/or neglectful.

Anonymous wrote:Parents don't know how to be adults and parent properly.

They have themselves not been raised with consistent and present parents.

Do these parents both WOH or is one a SAHP?

+1

If one parent is (for example) SAH, and stays upstairs in bed or watching late night reruns, while the other is (for example) spending time around strip club type atmospheres, the kid is absolutely being neglected. It may be years, if ever, for this kid to catch up, sadly. The kid didn't stand a chance at learning proper skills.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The part about scratching and bruising their parents makes me think that there is a mental health issue and not just a parenting issue. Even parents who are bad at discipline and boundaries Won’t have kids scratching their faces and bruising them.

When I first met the mom, she had some scratches. I thought she had a cat. Later learned the kid scratched her. Kid was a toddler so I thought nothing of it. It is many years later and oldest is now 9. Dad had scratches and bruises recently from the girl. I have seen both girls have massive screaming throwing fits over very small things like food not being exactly how she wanted it or flavor ice cream ran out.

What you describe goes beyond "difficult personality," OP. Especially if the parents haven't figured out in all these years how to reduce the physical aggression, something's up (something you're not aware of). Situations that extreme are almost always some combination of genes and environment.

Probably a lot less environment and a lot more genes.

The more children you have, the more you realize how little influence you actually have.

Different phenotypes have different heritabilities. You can actually look this stuff up, if you’re interested in the research vs. what randos on the internet have to say.

And if you look at the research, what you find is that it is not nature OR nurture but always, always, some combination of both. Also lots of evidence that even highly heritable traits are influenced by environmental factors.

The idea that a child is just born violent or badly-behaved is in no way supported by scientific evidence, which shows that parents have a large degree of influence on behavior and temperament.

PP you’re quoting and yes, exactly. Now, there can be really awful, abusive (and neglectful) parents, and truly traumatizing environmental conditions. Those are the exceptions, though. On the flip side, people can be wonderful parents and still have kids who struggle. Again: nature interacting with nurture.

Op here. I really don’t think the child is neglected or abused. Sure, I’m sure they parents argue. Who doesn’t?

They may not be abused but they may have special needs that the parents are ignoring (potentially because they are undiagnosed or the parents don't know how to address these needs) and it results in violent, uncontrollable behavior. This is a form of neglect in the same way that refusing to get your child medical attention for a physical disability would be considered neglect.

+1

Exactly this.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some kids are difficult or have underlying mental or physical illness and other kids have bad family situations that are out of the kids' control (parents stressed or alcoholics or have money trouble or family strife or whatever). Just because parents look good on outside also doesn't mean they are good at home. If they have difficult children and want help, they should try parenting classes or get their kids whatever help they need.

+1000000

times a million more!!!! I know parents who are "perplexed" about their children's anger issues, yet they have yet to look in the mirror.....even once.....

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The part about scratching and bruising their parents makes me think that there is a mental health issue and not just a parenting issue. Even parents who are bad at discipline and boundaries Won’t have kids scratching their faces and bruising them.

When I first met the mom, she had some scratches. I thought she had a cat. Later learned the kid scratched her. Kid was a toddler so I thought nothing of it. It is many years later and oldest is now 9. Dad had scratches and bruises recently from the girl. I have seen both girls have massive screaming throwing fits over very small things like food not being exactly how she wanted it or flavor ice cream ran out.

What you describe goes beyond "difficult personality," OP. Especially if the parents haven't figured out in all these years how to reduce the physical aggression, something's up (something you're not aware of). Situations that extreme are almost always some combination of genes and environment.

Probably a lot less environment and a lot more genes.

The more children you have, the more you realize how little influence you actually have.

Different phenotypes have different heritabilities. You can actually look this stuff up, if you’re interested in the research vs. what randos on the internet have to say.

And if you look at the research, what you find is that it is not nature OR nurture but always, always, some combination of both. Also lots of evidence that even highly heritable traits are influenced by environmental factors.

The idea that a child is just born violent or badly-behaved is in no way supported by scientific evidence, which shows that parents have a large degree of influence on behavior and temperament.

PP you’re quoting and yes, exactly. Now, there can be really awful, abusive (and neglectful) parents, and truly traumatizing environmental conditions. Those are the exceptions, though. On the flip side, people can be wonderful parents and still have kids who struggle. Again: nature interacting with nurture.

Op here. I really don’t think the child is neglected or abused. Sure, I’m sure they parents argue. Who doesn’t?

They may not be abused but they may have special needs that the parents are ignoring (potentially because they are undiagnosed or the parents don't know how to address these needs) and it results in violent, uncontrollable behavior. This is a form of neglect in the same way that refusing to get your child medical attention for a physical disability would be considered neglect.

In my experience, yes, some children can have more difficult personalities than others, and each child requires a different kind of approach. I think kids each have their go-to means of expressing negative feelings - crying, whining, screaming, hitting, verbal assaults, negative self-talk, sulking, etc. But as they develop and get older, it is our job as parents to keep teaching them better ways of coping and expressing those negative feelings.

From OP's description, it does sound to me like that the parents have a complete lack of boundaries and/or are very inconsistent with setting and enforcing them, and that the kids call all the shots in the house.