I graduated from Carleton. I think that part of what makes it what it is, is it's location--only some kids will be up for the MN winters, and some people love those winters, and the whole vibe is not the same as that of Pomona with the sunshine or Rice with its Texan location. Yes, it's COLD winter term. But it is sunny, and fall and spring are gorgeous, and there is ice skating outdoors and sledding and skiing and running, etc., despite the cold. I loved it (obviously!). St. Olaf is very different because it's religious and stricter about alcohol and gender issues, etc., so I don't think there is a ton of overlap there.

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Anonymous wrote:PP with kid at St. Olaf. He might have gotten into Carleton, but didn't even look at it because we couldn't afford it. Both excellent schools for different reasons. If your high stats kid is looking for a safety that they could love, and you can easily afford, St. Olaf might be worth a second look. It's a pretty special place. Do Grinell and Carleton do better for grad school placements in my kids major? Yep. But not by much. https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs

You really shouldn't have posted that link if you think it supports the idea that St Olaf is anywhere near the same league as Carleton or Grinnell. Both of those schools appear in the top ten for PhDs in numerous of the fields mentioned, while St Olaf appears in none.

Actually Carleton and St. Olaf ARE in the same leagu. It’s called the Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference. It’s Grinnell that’s not in the same league. They’re in the Midwest Conference.

Ha ha cute. Off point, but cute.

Not as off point as you think.

Please explain why. Every single member of Carleton's athletic conference is a Minnesota private school, every single one of them, and the Minnesota private schools that are members run the gamut from nationally known Carleton and Macalester to little known Bethel and St Scholastica. Carleton has Division III athletics and a limited athletic budget, so why wouldn't it participate in a league comprised exclusively of Minnesota private schools?

Grinnell isn't a Minnesota school and none of the members of its conference are Minnesota schools either. But, like Carleton, academically it is considered the best school in its conference.

The midwest isn't the northeast. It's much larger geographically and its top colleges aren't an hour's drive from each other. Carleton and Grinnell are just being practical.

Distance isn’t the factor you’re making it out to be. Concordia is in Moorhead, across the river from Fargo. If distance were the issue, Concordia would be playing in a North Dakota conference. Grinnell is 50 miles close to Carleton than Concordia is. St. Scholastica is in Duluth, 200 miles north of Carleton. Grinnell isn’t much farther than that. If distance were the issue, Grinnell and Carleton could be in the same conference. A friend of mine is from North Dakota. He traveled hours to play HIGH SCHOOL sports. People in that part of the country are used to traveling long distances.

Collegiate athletic conferences come together for lots of reasons. One of them is a level of comfort with the academic demands at the competing colleges.

The harping on test scores as a measure of “smarter kids” ignores a lot of what we know about testing and about intelligence. We no longer refer to “intelligence” as a single entity, which was in fact the thinking when tests were created in the first half of the last century. Multiple intelligences is how we now look at cognitive abilities. SAT focused only on one kind of cognitive ability.

The one thing that SAT scores correlate with better than anything else is wealth. And the higher the scores get, the stronger the correlation becomes. Calling a group of kids “smarter” because they have higher test scores is going into very dangerous territory. There’s a lot of racist thinking that flows from that. This is the territory of the affluent and the privileged, patting themselves on the back because Todd and Muffy are just oh so smart.

Referring to the number of kids who go on for doctorates is ludicrous when then generalizing to an entire student body. That approach is so flawed that it’s not even worth commenting on further.

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Anonymous wrote:I really feel like the MN schools sound like good fits for my DS but the winter thing is just too overwhelming. He does not like the cold weather, sigh. I wish there were schools like Carleton or Macalester in the south!

There are.

First of all before I get to the South, let me just mention that Reed College in Oregon is intellectually a lot like Carleton and winters in the Pacific Northwest are a lot milder than Minnesota winters by a long shot. Pomona in Southern California is a lot like Carleton. Coming back to this side of the Rockies, Colorado College would be a good fit. People don’t think of Rice university when thy think of liberal arts colleges because it’s a research university and it has Engineering, but it’s one of the 3 or 4 smallest research universities in the country with 4000+ undergrads and has great liberal arts. Davidson is a classic liberal arts college, just outside Charlotte. Trinity in San Antonio isn’t listed as LAC but at its core it really is, and it’s small (2500), and it’s very good. Furman, , Sewanee, and Rhodes are worth checking out. And of course you know about Washington & Lee and Richmond.

I don't see this at all. Carleton students are very smart but IME tend to also be really organized, high achievers, who know where they are going (knew they wanted to a PhD in x by the time they were sophomores in HS). They tend to achieve within traditional academic systems. A lot of them also like sports and are very disciplined in their athletics. They strike me as an unusually smart, disciplined group. Reed has a lot of very smart, intellectually curious kids--but they tend to be those who aren't as attracted to linear achievement paths, a lot more likely to experiment with drugs and alternative sub-cultures etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Well, for starters it's CarlEton. And if you do a search there's actually plenty on this board about it. It's generally considered the best liberal arts college in the midwest (although Grinnell gives it a run for its money), on par with the very best liberal arts colleges anywhere else, but it's slightly less selective and a little more laid back because of its Minnesota location.

St Olaf is a tier below, a good school for sure but with a religious affiliation. My understanding is that even though the schools are in the same town they don't interact much with each other.

If you like these, especially St. Olaf, and you like the small town feel, also check out Gustavus.

Unfortunately, I don't have any helpful, recent notes about the schools, but they are all good schools. In the 90s, Carleton was known for more of a national draw than any other of the MIAC schools (MN intercollegiate athletic conference, generally small LACs in MN), who were heavily MN/WI/IA/Dakotas in student population. I know a number from around here look at Macalester these days. At that time, Carleton was also known for being more of a pressure-cooker than other MIAC schools.

I am an alum of Gustavus. In hindsight, it was too rural and small for my taste, but I was able to be an athlete and got a really good education.

A GACer! I grew up in St. Peter. About half the size of Northfield (where St. Olaf and Carleton are), but less Malt-o-Meal smell. Different people have differing, strong opinions on whether that's a pro or con for Northfield. If you were at GAC in the late 90s, sorry for being one of the high school kids that would infiltrate the campus for various events or to simply kill time. And sorry about that tornado.

I'll add that St. Olaf is particularly known for its music program, but Carleton, as you said, is more selective, generally has more rigorous classes, and has a higher pressure atmosphere academically.

Anonymous wrote:I really feel like the MN schools sound like good fits for my DS but the winter thing is just too overwhelming. He does not like the cold weather, sigh. I wish there were schools like Carleton or Macalester in the south!

The cold is real but I think people in the east don’t appreciate how sunny the winters are in Minnesota. For a kid who is ok with bundling up but just kind of shuts down on dreary days, there’s a real benefit to the upper Midwest over places like Ann Arbor/Ithaca.

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Anonymous wrote:PP with kid at St. Olaf. He might have gotten into Carleton, but didn't even look at it because we couldn't afford it. Both excellent schools for different reasons. If your high stats kid is looking for a safety that they could love, and you can easily afford, St. Olaf might be worth a second look. It's a pretty special place. Do Grinell and Carleton do better for grad school placements in my kids major? Yep. But not by much. https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs

You really shouldn't have posted that link if you think it supports the idea that St Olaf is anywhere near the same league as Carleton or Grinnell. Both of those schools appear in the top ten for PhDs in numerous of the fields mentioned, while St Olaf appears in none.

Actually Carleton and St. Olaf ARE in the same leagu. It’s called the Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference. It’s Grinnell that’s not in the same league. They’re in the Midwest Conference.

Ha ha cute. Off point, but cute.

Not as off point as you think.

Please explain why. Every single member of Carleton's athletic conference is a Minnesota private school, every single one of them, and the Minnesota private schools that are members run the gamut from nationally known Carleton and Macalester to little known Bethel and St Scholastica. Carleton has Division III athletics and a limited athletic budget, so why wouldn't it participate in a league comprised exclusively of Minnesota private schools?

Grinnell isn't a Minnesota school and none of the members of its conference are Minnesota schools either. But, like Carleton, academically it is considered the best school in its conference.

The midwest isn't the northeast. It's much larger geographically and its top colleges aren't an hour's drive from each other. Carleton and Grinnell are just being practical.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP with kid at St. Olaf. He might have gotten into Carleton, but didn't even look at it because we couldn't afford it. Both excellent schools for different reasons. If your high stats kid is looking for a safety that they could love, and you can easily afford, St. Olaf might be worth a second look. It's a pretty special place. Do Grinell and Carleton do better for grad school placements in my kids major? Yep. But not by much. https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs

You really shouldn't have posted that link if you think it supports the idea that St Olaf is anywhere near the same league as Carleton or Grinnell. Both of those schools appear in the top ten for PhDs in numerous of the fields mentioned, while St Olaf appears in none.

Actually Carleton and St. Olaf ARE in the same leagu. It’s called the Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference. It’s Grinnell that’s not in the same league. They’re in the Midwest Conference.

Ha ha cute. Off point, but cute.

Not as off point as you think.

Anonymous wrote:I really feel like the MN schools sound like good fits for my DS but the winter thing is just too overwhelming. He does not like the cold weather, sigh. I wish there were schools like Carleton or Macalester in the south!

There are.

First of all before I get to the South, let me just mention that Reed College in Oregon is intellectually a lot like Carleton and winters in the Pacific Northwest are a lot milder than Minnesota winters by a long shot. Pomona in Southern California is a lot like Carleton. Coming back to this side of the Rockies, Colorado College would be a good fit. People don’t think of Rice university when thy think of liberal arts colleges because it’s a research university and it has Engineering, but it’s one of the 3 or 4 smallest research universities in the country with 4000+ undergrads and has great liberal arts. Davidson is a classic liberal arts college, just outside Charlotte. Trinity in San Antonio isn’t listed as LAC but at its core it really is, and it’s small (2500), and it’s very good. Furman, , Sewanee, and Rhodes are worth checking out. And of course you know about Washington & Lee and Richmond.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP with kid at St. Olaf. He might have gotten into Carleton, but didn't even look at it because we couldn't afford it. Both excellent schools for different reasons. If your high stats kid is looking for a safety that they could love, and you can easily afford, St. Olaf might be worth a second look. It's a pretty special place. Do Grinell and Carleton do better for grad school placements in my kids major? Yep. But not by much. https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs

You really shouldn't have posted that link if you think it supports the idea that St Olaf is anywhere near the same league as Carleton or Grinnell. Both of those schools appear in the top ten for PhDs in numerous of the fields mentioned, while St Olaf appears in none.

Actually Carleton and St. Olaf ARE in the same leagu. It’s called the Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference. It’s Grinnell that’s not in the same league. They’re in the Midwest Conference.

Ha ha cute. Off point, but cute.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP with kid at St. Olaf. He might have gotten into Carleton, but didn't even look at it because we couldn't afford it. Both excellent schools for different reasons. If your high stats kid is looking for a safety that they could love, and you can easily afford, St. Olaf might be worth a second look. It's a pretty special place. Do Grinell and Carleton do better for grad school placements in my kids major? Yep. But not by much. https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs

You really shouldn't have posted that link if you think it supports the idea that St Olaf is anywhere near the same league as Carleton or Grinnell. Both of those schools appear in the top ten for PhDs in numerous of the fields mentioned, while St Olaf appears in none.

Actually Carleton and St. Olaf ARE in the same leagu. It’s called the Minnesota Intercollegiate Athletic Conference. It’s Grinnell that’s not in the same league. They’re in the Midwest Conference.

DP. It is kind of funny that people are saying that St Olaf students are no less smart than Carleton students when Carleton's test scores are much higher AND the link that the St. Olaf booster attached shows that Carleton produces more PhDs than just about any other school and in many, many fields across the entire academic spectrum. How much more data do you need to see?

I really feel like the MN schools sound like good fits for my DS but the winter thing is just too overwhelming. He does not like the cold weather, sigh. I wish there were schools like Carleton or Macalester in the south!

Our daughter got in Carleton a couple years ago. She was attracted by its quirky and Midwestern-nice nature, lack of supplemental essays and fees (haha), it's strong STEM programs, and club sports offerings like frisbee. Unfortunately, due to Covid, we were unable to visit and she ended up at Oberlin with merit. She was also considering Grinnell and Macalester since they also offered merit. (We knew who offered merit vs need-based aid going in and we might have tried to swing it if it weren't for the pandemic.) St. Olaf is a great college and she's met many kids who have considered it, but it unfortunately wasn't on our radar at the time.

Here's the data on recent major declarations: https://thecarletonian.com/2022/04/15/class-of-2024-declares-majors-after-five-terms-of-covid-19-regulations/

Strong STEM and quantitative programs for sure!

True. But it's worth looking at which schools it is ranked above, many of which DCUM posters salivate over. Look, it's a solid school. Prestige hounds won't send their kids there, which will keep it sweet.

Anonymous wrote:PP with kid at St. Olaf. He might have gotten into Carleton, but didn't even look at it because we couldn't afford it. Both excellent schools for different reasons. If your high stats kid is looking for a safety that they could love, and you can easily afford, St. Olaf might be worth a second look. It's a pretty special place. Do Grinell and Carleton do better for grad school placements in my kids major? Yep. But not by much. https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-phd-programs

You really shouldn't have posted that link if you think it supports the idea that St Olaf is anywhere near the same league as Carleton or Grinnell. Both of those schools appear in the top ten for PhDs in numerous of the fields mentioned, while St Olaf appears in none.