Anonymous wrote:No one will say they pushed someone out "for no reason." You may not know the reason or consider it valid but if it happened to you, the person had a reason they considered valid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one will say they pushed someone out "for no reason." You may not know the reason or consider it valid but if it happened to you, the person had a reason they considered valid.

DP but I’m going to argue with you.

If you have a valid reason to not want someone working for you anymore, you should TELL THEM during regular performance evaluations or other appropriate times so that they have the opportunity to fix it.

If they don’t fix it, you can demote or fire for cause, and they might be mad but not confused because you have been clear with them about expectations and they have refused or been incapable of meeting them.

When people are not up front about their reasons, it’s either because:

(1) They are BAD managers with poor communication skills, who are often passive aggressive and afraid of being direct, because they don’t want to be held responsible for use of their authority. They want to use their authority, they just don’t want to be held responsible for it. Lazy cowards, you know who you are.

(2) Their reasons are invalid. They have a personal conflict with an otherwise good worker and can’t leave it outside the office. They are prejudiced. They want to hire a friend into that role. And so on. They can’t directly express these reasons because they are bad and they know it, so they just passively aggressively make work hell for the person until they quit.

If as a manager you think you have a valid reason to be unhappy with a subordinate, you HAVE to communicate it. It’s a fundamental part of your job. The only reason not to communicate it is if the reason is invalid.

(Some people are devious and do a thing where they make people miserable at work, then say “you seem miserable and that’s a problem” then get rid of them for attitude problems. Diabolical, human beings are actually quite terrible.)

+1. Who knows why managers act this way? I thought about it a lot during the 2.5 years that I worked for someone who micromanaged me and made my daily existence a nightmare. Interestingly, she did the "you seem unhappy thing" a PP mentioned a lot. I cried almost every day and felt so stuck. Every so often I would say to myself "What if I pushed back? Could I do something different?" And then I would push back and she would double down and it would get worse. I realized after a while that I couldn't do anything to change the dynamic. Some days she would be nice and I would think "maybe she's not so bad," but most days she would make me feel incompetent, pick apart everything I said and did, harass me if I left my desk to go to the bathroom or didn't respond to an email immediately, tell me after department meetings that had absolutely nothing to do with me that I had looked "upset" during the meeting and that was unprofessional, pull me aside and say an important staff member had let her know that they had said "hello" to me in the office and I hadn't said "hello" back and that was unacceptable. I was constantly blindsided. I was constantly trying to "do the right thing" and yet, it was never enough. The goal post was always moving. She was psycho and a huge control freak. I was her only employee (the employee who was in the role before me quit and filed a lawsuit against her and the company for her behavior... but of course the company let my boss continue to be a manager).

I started applying to jobs 6 months in, but it took two years of applying off and on to get another offer. I actually ended up getting a job (two titles higher) in a different department in the company when things reached a peak (the timing was all luck). However, I was so desperate that I went along with a negligible salary increase. I made sure that before I left that I told higher-up in the department how bad my experience had been under her and was happy they did not fill my role (they brought it in someone else at her level to do the work that I was doing and gave that person a direct report). I only stayed in the second job for 1.5 years. The new job was great in many respects (except for the pay), but I was disgusted with the company and always looking over my shoulder afraid of what she would/could do to my career and reputation. 4 years after leaving the job with the bad manager my salary has increased by more than 300%, I work in a functional work environment, and I'm much happier. I'm also sad for myself - for the 2.5 years that I lost working for a deeply troubled person who decided to make me her punching bag for no other reason then that I was an easy target.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one will say they pushed someone out "for no reason." You may not know the reason or consider it valid but if it happened to you, the person had a reason they considered valid.

DP but I’m going to argue with you.

If you have a valid reason to not want someone working for you anymore, you should TELL THEM during regular performance evaluations or other appropriate times so that they have the opportunity to fix it.

If they don’t fix it, you can demote or fire for cause, and they might be mad but not confused because you have been clear with them about expectations and they have refused or been incapable of meeting them.

When people are not up front about their reasons, it’s either because:

(1) They are BAD managers with poor communication skills, who are often passive aggressive and afraid of being direct, because they don’t want to be held responsible for use of their authority. They want to use their authority, they just don’t want to be held responsible for it. Lazy cowards, you know who you are.

(2) Their reasons are invalid. They have a personal conflict with an otherwise good worker and can’t leave it outside the office. They are prejudiced. They want to hire a friend into that role. And so on. They can’t directly express these reasons because they are bad and they know it, so they just passively aggressively make work hell for the person until they quit.

If as a manager you think you have a valid reason to be unhappy with a subordinate, you HAVE to communicate it. It’s a fundamental part of your job. The only reason not to communicate it is if the reason is invalid.

(Some people are devious and do a thing where they make people miserable at work, then say “you seem miserable and that’s a problem” then get rid of them for attitude problems. Diabolical, human beings are actually quite terrible.)

Different poster here: Sure, everything you posted about being clear about expectations not being met is on point. My favorite line from Brene Brown is “Clear is kind; unclear is unkind.” You have to know that all of that can happen, and an employee can still leave confused or pissed or feeling like they were targeted. Just because someone was demoted or evaluated out doesn’t mean their manager was vindictive and/or incompetent.

AND a manager can be incompetent and not have the maturity or skills to communicate with the struggling employee. It’s way too common.

Bottom line: there are some great managers and some crappy ones. And there are some great employees and some that are crappy or just in the wrong job.

A manager will only tell you if

1. They think you are capable of responding to the feedback
2. They care whether you succeed

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one will say they pushed someone out "for no reason." You may not know the reason or consider it valid but if it happened to you, the person had a reason they considered valid.

DP but I’m going to argue with you.

If you have a valid reason to not want someone working for you anymore, you should TELL THEM during regular performance evaluations or other appropriate times so that they have the opportunity to fix it.

If they don’t fix it, you can demote or fire for cause, and they might be mad but not confused because you have been clear with them about expectations and they have refused or been incapable of meeting them.

When people are not up front about their reasons, it’s either because:

(1) They are BAD managers with poor communication skills, who are often passive aggressive and afraid of being direct, because they don’t want to be held responsible for use of their authority. They want to use their authority, they just don’t want to be held responsible for it. Lazy cowards, you know who you are.

(2) Their reasons are invalid. They have a personal conflict with an otherwise good worker and can’t leave it outside the office. They are prejudiced. They want to hire a friend into that role. And so on. They can’t directly express these reasons because they are bad and they know it, so they just passively aggressively make work hell for the person until they quit.

If as a manager you think you have a valid reason to be unhappy with a subordinate, you HAVE to communicate it. It’s a fundamental part of your job. The only reason not to communicate it is if the reason is invalid.

(Some people are devious and do a thing where they make people miserable at work, then say “you seem miserable and that’s a problem” then get rid of them for attitude problems. Diabolical, human beings are actually quite terrible.)

Different poster here: Sure, everything you posted about being clear about expectations not being met is on point. My favorite line from Brene Brown is “Clear is kind; unclear is unkind.” You have to know that all of that can happen, and an employee can still leave confused or pissed or feeling like they were targeted. Just because someone was demoted or evaluated out doesn’t mean their manager was vindictive and/or incompetent.

AND a manager can be incompetent and not have the maturity or skills to communicate with the struggling employee. It’s way too common.

Bottom line: there are some great managers and some crappy ones. And there are some great employees and some that are crappy or just in the wrong job.

Anonymous wrote:I doubt anyone will admit it, even here.

I was pushed out if a job, though less through micromanaging and more through a slow atrophy of my career at the company. My bosses were polite to my face and had no cause to fire me or demote me as I was good at my job and liked by clients. They quietly ignored me, stayed indifferent to my projects, failed to staff me to anything new, until I quit because I was miserable. The silent treatment.

The reason why, I learned later, is that a colleague told them privately that he believed I was a Trump supporter. The irony: I’m not. But for some reason they believed him. They couldn’t ask me about it or do anything officially because that would have been blatantly illegal. So they froze me out, work became miserable (I went in antidepressants and still struggled, this whole thing destroyed my sense of self worth and made me feel like I was going crazy). I tried several times to understand what was going on, and they’d avoid meeting with me directly and then lie and say everything was great.

If I thought it wouldn’t be a miserable experience, I’d sue them. But my mental health improved when I left the job and now I think I have PTSD— I can imagine going through a legal process with them.

I don’t think they’d even admit it, even here, because even putting it somewhere anonymously could expose them to liability. The only reason I know is a former colleague who is in grad school for a career change told me, and she would never testify to it.

People are monsters.

Anonymous wrote:No one will say they pushed someone out "for no reason." You may not know the reason or consider it valid but if it happened to you, the person had a reason they considered valid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one will say they pushed someone out "for no reason." You may not know the reason or consider it valid but if it happened to you, the person had a reason they considered valid.

DP but I’m going to argue with you.

If you have a valid reason to not want someone working for you anymore, you should TELL THEM during regular performance evaluations or other appropriate times so that they have the opportunity to fix it.

If they don’t fix it, you can demote or fire for cause, and they might be mad but not confused because you have been clear with them about expectations and they have refused or been incapable of meeting them.

When people are not up front about their reasons, it’s either because:

(1) They are BAD managers with poor communication skills, who are often passive aggressive and afraid of being direct, because they don’t want to be held responsible for use of their authority. They want to use their authority, they just don’t want to be held responsible for it. Lazy cowards, you know who you are.

(2) Their reasons are invalid. They have a personal conflict with an otherwise good worker and can’t leave it outside the office. They are prejudiced. They want to hire a friend into that role. And so on. They can’t directly express these reasons because they are bad and they know it, so they just passively aggressively make work hell for the person until they quit.

If as a manager you think you have a valid reason to be unhappy with a subordinate, you HAVE to communicate it. It’s a fundamental part of your job. The only reason not to communicate it is if the reason is invalid.

(Some people are devious and do a thing where they make people miserable at work, then say “you seem miserable and that’s a problem” then get rid of them for attitude problems. Diabolical, human beings are actually quite terrible.)

+1. Who knows why managers act this way? I thought about it a lot during the 2.5 years that I worked for someone who micromanaged me and made my daily existence a nightmare. Interestingly, she did the "you seem unhappy thing" a PP mentioned a lot. I cried almost every day and felt so stuck. Every so often I would say to myself "What if I pushed back? Could I do something different?" And then I would push back and she would double down and it would get worse. I realized after a while that I couldn't do anything to change the dynamic. Some days she would be nice and I would think "maybe she's not so bad," but most days she would make me feel incompetent, pick apart everything I said and did, harass me if I left my desk to go to the bathroom or didn't respond to an email immediately, tell me after department meetings that had absolutely nothing to do with me that I had looked "upset" during the meeting and that was unprofessional, pull me aside and say an important staff member had let her know that they had said "hello" to me in the office and I hadn't said "hello" back and that was unacceptable. I was constantly blindsided. I was constantly trying to "do the right thing" and yet, it was never enough. The goal post was always moving. She was psycho and a huge control freak. I was her only employee (the employee who was in the role before me quit and filed a lawsuit against her and the company for her behavior... but of course the company let my boss continue to be a manager).

I started applying to jobs 6 months in, but it took two years of applying off and on to get another offer. I actually ended up getting a job (two titles higher) in a different department in the company when things reached a peak (the timing was all luck). However, I was so desperate that I went along with a negligible salary increase. I made sure that before I left that I told higher-up in the department how bad my experience had been under her and was happy they did not fill my role (they brought it in someone else at her level to do the work that I was doing and gave that person a direct report). I only stayed in the second job for 1.5 years. The new job was great in many respects (except for the pay), but I was disgusted with the company and always looking over my shoulder afraid of what she would/could do to my career and reputation. 4 years after leaving the job with the bad manager my salary has increased by more than 300%, I work in a functional work environment, and I'm much happier. I'm also sad for myself - for the 2.5 years that I lost working for a deeply troubled person who decided to make me her punching bag for no other reason then that I was an easy target.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one will say they pushed someone out "for no reason." You may not know the reason or consider it valid but if it happened to you, the person had a reason they considered valid.

DP but I’m going to argue with you.

If you have a valid reason to not want someone working for you anymore, you should TELL THEM during regular performance evaluations or other appropriate times so that they have the opportunity to fix it.

If they don’t fix it, you can demote or fire for cause, and they might be mad but not confused because you have been clear with them about expectations and they have refused or been incapable of meeting them.

When people are not up front about their reasons, it’s either because:

(1) They are BAD managers with poor communication skills, who are often passive aggressive and afraid of being direct, because they don’t want to be held responsible for use of their authority. They want to use their authority, they just don’t want to be held responsible for it. Lazy cowards, you know who you are.

(2) Their reasons are invalid. They have a personal conflict with an otherwise good worker and can’t leave it outside the office. They are prejudiced. They want to hire a friend into that role. And so on. They can’t directly express these reasons because they are bad and they know it, so they just passively aggressively make work hell for the person until they quit.

If as a manager you think you have a valid reason to be unhappy with a subordinate, you HAVE to communicate it. It’s a fundamental part of your job. The only reason not to communicate it is if the reason is invalid.

(Some people are devious and do a thing where they make people miserable at work, then say “you seem miserable and that’s a problem” then get rid of them for attitude problems. Diabolical, human beings are actually quite terrible.)

Anonymous wrote:I think micromanaging bosses push out employees unfairly, both deliberately and unconsciously. Micromanaging can also absolutely be used as a form of deliberate harassment or retaliation- there is plenty case law on this where a formerly great employee is placed on a PIP immediately after blowing the whistle.

There is a lot of literature on the harms of micromanagement. It’s a real thing, and very bad for productivity and employee development. Even here on DCUM I’ve seen managers post weird things like how they “do not tolerate a single error.”

What happens is that the micromanaged employee gets totally demoralized, and may start to actually become less competent due to the psychological impact. Like, I had a boss who would regularly spend considerable time lecturing me on how I had not correctly changed the header of documents the way she had instructed me to do. I am an attorney and subject may terrible expert, yet we would spend literally ALL the time on trivialities and none on the substance. It was maddening. She did not do it consciously but I absolutely would have quit if I hadn’t been restructured to another boss.

The other related thing that happens is the micromanaging boss has unrealistic expectations and believes that small errors means the employee is a bad employee. This can lead to a viscious circle where the employee can’t meet those expectations, gets evaluated unfairly, gets demoralized, performs worse, then leaves.

Micromanaging as deliberate harassment or retaliation is less common but as I progress in my career, I believe it happens far more than you’d think.

Anonymous wrote:Managers are not always the best employees and they know it. Often times they are jealous of someone under them that possesses skills they do not. From what I have observed in my companies it can be pure jealousy and fear of being exposed as incompetent.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I doubt anyone will admit it, even here.

I was pushed out if a job, though less through micromanaging and more through a slow atrophy of my career at the company. My bosses were polite to my face and had no cause to fire me or demote me as I was good at my job and liked by clients. They quietly ignored me, stayed indifferent to my projects, failed to staff me to anything new, until I quit because I was miserable. The silent treatment.

The reason why, I learned later, is that a colleague told them privately that he believed I was a Trump supporter. The irony: I’m not. But for some reason they believed him. They couldn’t ask me about it or do anything officially because that would have been blatantly illegal. So they froze me out, work became miserable (I went in antidepressants and still struggled, this whole thing destroyed my sense of self worth and made me feel like I was going crazy). I tried several times to understand what was going on, and they’d avoid meeting with me directly and then lie and say everything was great.

If I thought it wouldn’t be a miserable experience, I’d sue them. But my mental health improved when I left the job and now I think I have PTSD— I can imagine going through a legal process with them.

I don’t think they’d even admit it, even here, because even putting it somewhere anonymously could expose them to liability. The only reason I know is a former colleague who is in grad school for a career change told me, and she would never testify to it.

People are monsters.

This is such a fantasy of the right, that they (and others!) are being persecuted for their beliefs. The reality is that no one cares. Especially in upper management of most organizations, because for reasons of age and wealth upper management leans conservative. Even if PP is not a troll and truly believes that was the reason, it wasn't the reason.

Anonymous wrote:I doubt anyone will admit it, even here.

I was pushed out if a job, though less through micromanaging and more through a slow atrophy of my career at the company. My bosses were polite to my face and had no cause to fire me or demote me as I was good at my job and liked by clients. They quietly ignored me, stayed indifferent to my projects, failed to staff me to anything new, until I quit because I was miserable. The silent treatment.

The reason why, I learned later, is that a colleague told them privately that he believed I was a Trump supporter. The irony: I’m not. But for some reason they believed him. They couldn’t ask me about it or do anything officially because that would have been blatantly illegal. So they froze me out, work became miserable (I went in antidepressants and still struggled, this whole thing destroyed my sense of self worth and made me feel like I was going crazy). I tried several times to understand what was going on, and they’d avoid meeting with me directly and then lie and say everything was great.

If I thought it wouldn’t be a miserable experience, I’d sue them. But my mental health improved when I left the job and now I think I have PTSD— I can imagine going through a legal process with them.

I don’t think they’d even admit it, even here, because even putting it somewhere anonymously could expose them to liability. The only reason I know is a former colleague who is in grad school for a career change told me, and she would never testify to it.

People are monsters.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I doubt anyone will admit it, even here.

I was pushed out if a job, though less through micromanaging and more through a slow atrophy of my career at the company. My bosses were polite to my face and had no cause to fire me or demote me as I was good at my job and liked by clients. They quietly ignored me, stayed indifferent to my projects, failed to staff me to anything new, until I quit because I was miserable. The silent treatment.

The reason why, I learned later, is that a colleague told them privately that he believed I was a Trump supporter. The irony: I’m not. But for some reason they believed him. They couldn’t ask me about it or do anything officially because that would have been blatantly illegal. So they froze me out, work became miserable (I went in antidepressants and still struggled, this whole thing destroyed my sense of self worth and made me feel like I was going crazy). I tried several times to understand what was going on, and they’d avoid meeting with me directly and then lie and say everything was great.

If I thought it wouldn’t be a miserable experience, I’d sue them. But my mental health improved when I left the job and now I think I have PTSD— I can imagine going through a legal process with them.

I don’t think they’d even admit it, even here, because even putting it somewhere anonymously could expose them to liability. The only reason I know is a former colleague who is in grad school for a career change told me, and she would never testify to it.

People are monsters.

Don’t pursue legal action because there’s nothing illegal here. Hope you find yourself in a better situation now.

It’s illegal to discriminate against employees for their political beliefs.

No. Political beliefs are not a protected class. They could have told you they hate you because you love Trump, and it wouldn’t be illegal. Rude, but not illegal.

Anonymous wrote:I did at a particularly cut throat corp. I was tasked with getting rid of a few employees after a re-org who remained friends with the "wrong people." They were good, productive workers that probably were happy they were tossed out of that environment.