Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not LGBTQ but I am 54.

There are 5 gay married couples on my DC block, all >50 y.o. Two are in their 70s. I am close friends with the 70/60 yr old married couple.

None of these people identify as trans, even though it's clearly safe for them to do so now in 2022. All are "gay" or "lesbian." I asked the same question as OP of my 70 yr old gay friend, who has a bazillion gay friends across the US and has been out for 50 years. His answer: he doesn't know a single person in his peer group who identifies as trans. They're gay, or lesbian, or heterosexual. Nobody is bi.

Being trans is very rare. Like, extremely rare. It's weird that people have become so obsessed with transgender people. Even your post is strange. Like, why even single out trans people in this way? This thread wasn't specifically trans related.

You seem unfamiliar with today’s middle schoolers. The portion of the population identifying as trans is in the double digits. It’s no longer “extremely rare”.

And there is a host of ‘well meaning’ adults waiting in the wings to validate their own self-worth by ‘helping’

Anonymous wrote:So, I think that, as someone who came out in high school in the 90s, and knew lots of people who identified as queer in high school, I look back and almost all of the people I knew back then still identify as queer.

That said, several of my female friends (maybe 50% of them) who dated women in college ended up marrying men. Some of them also ended up being with women again later after the marriage ended.

But, I would say that hoping your child's identity is a phase is a really big problem. You need to adjust your attitude. You kid will probably identify as queer forever. Which precise label fits them may change.

If you've got a girl, you may end up still getting a son in law.

If your son is out as queer, I don't have any friends who ended up with women in this situation.

I don’t think I saw “hoping” it’s a phase once on this thread. I think “wondering” if it’s a phase is more like it. Correct? There is a big difference, I think.

So, I think that, as someone who came out in high school in the 90s, and knew lots of people who identified as queer in high school, I look back and almost all of the people I knew back then still identify as queer.

That said, several of my female friends (maybe 50% of them) who dated women in college ended up marrying men. Some of them also ended up being with women again later after the marriage ended.

But, I would say that hoping your child's identity is a phase is a really big problem. You need to adjust your attitude. You kid will probably identify as queer forever. Which precise label fits them may change.

If you've got a girl, you may end up still getting a son in law.

If your son is out as queer, I don't have any friends who ended up with women in this situation.

Anonymous wrote:Breaking my no-posting rule twice in two days (I was 9:02 yesterday).

I think what the responses demonstrate is that there are a range of queer people. As with any group that is randomly drawn from across a population, some of us are terrible.
(Tell me where you all hang out so that I can...not go there.)

LGBTQ culture is always shifting and evolving. I would not have very much in common with a late 70s lesbian feminist.
The question is, how do we respond to these changes? Do we see them as interesting? Are we curious about them?
Or are we threatened by those changes, and do we feel like we have to be defensive and brittle about them? If so, what are those feelings about?

The way younger folks understand and describe their gender and sexuality is different than the culture I came out into 20 years ago. Okay. I'm choosing to try to learn about it from the hearts and minds of the people experiencing it.
What benefit would I derive from being judgmental about it? What right do I have to do that? I'm not the all-knowing arbiter of queer culture. It gets to change, even if those changes mean that I might not be as sure of my place in it.
And what I'm definitely not going to do is get sniffy about young people (kids! teenagers!) trying out vocabulary and definitions.

If being queer and trans is trendy...cool! Great! Maybe fewer kids will kill themselves.
If lots of kids go through a "queer phase"...neato. I hope they learn something valuable about themselves.

Well said.

48 year old lesbian here -

I think that teens feel more free to try out labels and identities now vs 20/30/40 years ago. When I was growing up (late 80s/90s) you 100% waited until you were CERTAIN of your identity because it could cost you everything to come out. Now kids can see how things feel and fit (this is part of adolescence on many levels (clothing styles, hair, friends, etc) before 100% committing to anything.

My teenage kids have several friends who identify LBGTQIA - my guess is that if I looked them up in 20 years, some will still identify how they do today - and many won't. I also am going to guess that the goth kids may not be wearing black eyeliner in 20y...though maybe I am wrong about that.

I waited until I was in my mid 20s to come out (even though I knew for YEARS) because I has no idea what the repercussions were going to be from family/friends and I waited until it was harder to stay in the closet than be out.

I mean, I am not religious. I have friends who are. I believe them when they say they “know” that Jesus is our Savior, even though I don’t believe that is something that is knowable. What may be true to them is a belief to others.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m probably the “terrible person” you are talking about because I am skeptical and questioning.

You are probably already hanging out with me, but you have no idea, because I am kind and welcoming to people even if I don’t adhere to their ideology or totally agree with their worldview.

I deeply believe that many transgender identities are in some way shaped by internalized homophobia, misogyny and/or toxic masculinity.

Cool theory, bro. But I'll prioritize loving the trans folks in my life and hearing from them directly.

Loving and accepting someone and listening but seeing things differently are not mutually exclusive.

Anonymous wrote:I’m probably the “terrible person” you are talking about because I am skeptical and questioning.

You are probably already hanging out with me, but you have no idea, because I am kind and welcoming to people even if I don’t adhere to their ideology or totally agree with their worldview.

I deeply believe that many transgender identities are in some way shaped by internalized homophobia, misogyny and/or toxic masculinity.

Cool theory, bro. But I'll prioritize loving the trans folks in my life and hearing from them directly.

I’m probably the “terrible person” you are talking about because I am skeptical and questioning.

You are probably already hanging out with me, but you have no idea, because I am kind and welcoming to people even if I don’t adhere to their ideology or totally agree with their worldview.

I deeply believe that many transgender identities are in some way shaped by internalized homophobia, misogyny and/or toxic masculinity.

Breaking my no-posting rule twice in two days (I was 9:02 yesterday).

I think what the responses demonstrate is that there are a range of queer people. As with any group that is randomly drawn from across a population, some of us are terrible.
(Tell me where you all hang out so that I can...not go there.)

LGBTQ culture is always shifting and evolving. I would not have very much in common with a late 70s lesbian feminist.
The question is, how do we respond to these changes? Do we see them as interesting? Are we curious about them?
Or are we threatened by those changes, and do we feel like we have to be defensive and brittle about them? If so, what are those feelings about?

The way younger folks understand and describe their gender and sexuality is different than the culture I came out into 20 years ago. Okay. I'm choosing to try to learn about it from the hearts and minds of the people experiencing it.
What benefit would I derive from being judgmental about it? What right do I have to do that? I'm not the all-knowing arbiter of queer culture. It gets to change, even if those changes mean that I might not be as sure of my place in it.
And what I'm definitely not going to do is get sniffy about young people (kids! teenagers!) trying out vocabulary and definitions.

If being queer and trans is trendy...cool! Great! Maybe fewer kids will kill themselves.
If lots of kids go through a "queer phase"...neato. I hope they learn something valuable about themselves.

Anonymous wrote:Back to whether it’s a phase or not… I am not LGBTQ, but do have a gay brother, now 49. We always knew he was gay. Yes, he did the stereotypical things as a kid - not into sports, having many girl friends, but never any girlfriends, and came out when he was 20 (but we all knew!)
My DD just came out as bisexual and gender fluid at 17 and this came out of NOWHERE. Had a boyfriend in 10th grade, never had any gender confusion at all – girl all the way; likes dance, hair and makeup, dresses, and still does even post gender fluid announcement. The only change was after covid she went back to in-person school and started hanging out with a very queer crowd. Great and smart kids, by the way.
I know there is not one path to discovering your sexuality, but this was a shocker. If it’s not a phase, great. My brother who I adore is in a healthier relationship than most of the hetero couples I know. But I have my doubts of whether she is doing this to fit in to her friend group, as teens often do. Time will tell.

43 yr old cis straight woman here, and why do you care? Seriously, have you taken the time to really think about why this matters to you? I have a tween daughter and an 8 year old son, and in our family, the rule is to love who you love. As long as there is safety, kindness and enthusiastic consent and honesty, it doesn't matter what the label is, or how many times it changes (if at all). They can love who they want.

But no Republicans.

(kidding, kidding...)

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Anonymous wrote:IMO things are mostly better now than when I was growing up in the 90s. That kids are more accepting now is great.

What I find potentially not great or healthy is so much focus on gender identity. I am an older lesbian and I meet all kids of queer people in social groups, old and young.
I find it sad so many are medically transitioning to the opposite gender instead of becoming proud lesbians in their own body, or feminine straight men in their own body. (Most Trans men and most trans women I’ve met, respectively)

What does being trans have to do with being a lesbian or gay man?

Where there are so many female-attracted females who would rather be seen as men than as lesbians, then there is a connection.

But that’s not all encompassing of trans men. I mean, trans people are gay, straight, and bi after all. I don’t think sexual orientation and gender identity are related in that way. I mean, you’re saying female attracted trans men shouldn’t transition even though they feel they should. I checked, that’s 23% of trans men. What about the rest that identify as gay, bi, pan, etc? Should they transition? What about trans women who are male attracted or female attracted or pan etc? The trans people I know are 100% trans as hell. No doubt.

I just question the societal constructs that helped them arrive there. Of course all trans men aren’t this or that.
I’m pretty sure the majority trans men are female attracted.
Not sure for the non-binary females I know, many more of them are attracted to guys, and some of them don’t have anything about them perceivable as different from any other female, they just say they feel different and use they/them.
The female attracted trans women I know are VERY different from the male attracted ones I know who were typically very naturally effeminate from a young age. Having spent a lot of time around female attracted trans women, at their core their vibe is no different than a lot of sensitive geeky guys I’ve known.
Trans men that want to partner up with gay men (rare) are in for some hard times..
IME many people that partner up with trans people of either original sex are bi or pan. Nothing wrong with that.

I’m a gen-Xer. I don’t pass moral judgement, but I question authority. I am skeptical. I don’t necessarily accept things at face value.
Personally, I question the whole concept of gender and want to burn down the stereotypes.
What does it mean to be “trans as hell” anyway?

I’m trying to understand what you’re talking about here and sort of make sense of it. You’re saying that female attracted trans women seem like men to you and male attracted trans women seem like women. And the opposite (I assume?) for trans men? But then you go on to say you want to burn down stereotypes. There’s some sort of implicit stereotypical bias in there somewhere. Like, a trans woman could like cars and transition to a man to a masculine woman and a trans man could like baking and transition to a feminine man. I’m sure you understand that.

The purpose of transition is for yourself. If an adult wants to transition then they should do it. If anything, encouraging to transition younger is better because repressing it’s your whole life just leads to people transitioning after marriage and kids.

Just my personal experience as an out queer woman in the queer community. I do believe men and women have inherent differences that are rooted in biology and don’t necessarily change just because someone wishes to present differently.
If we lived in a free society, there would be no need for transition if you are already able to express yourself and live as who you are in the first place.
The fact that people feel the need to change their bodies in order to conform to what they see as stereotypically male or female says more about our society than it does about those people as individuals. It’s a society problem, not a them problem.

It just seems like you think all transition is for social and societal reasons. I don't see it that way. If someone is transitioning without dysphoria then sure. Dysphoric trans people transition for themselves. And I think it's pretty clear that we're never going to live in a society without gender stereotypes so even if you were right, it's irrelevant. Again, I'd rather people transition younger and find a partner after transition than to transition after marriage and kids and hope their marriage doesn't collapse. So far as we know, being transgender isn't "curable" and it usually just leads to late transition to repress. It's not like they haven't tried to "cure" it for years. It's a lot better to transition young than failed marriages and people 41% themselves.

But why the body dysphoria in the first place? Nothing happens in a vacuum.

There is also a big difference between transitioning as far as pronouns, names, and clothes, and undergoing serious potentially lifelong medical interventions.
But society is not super accepting of males (or those perceived as male) for example wearing lipstick and skirts. How can anyone know they are truly transitioning for themselves, given there are so many societal pressures and norms placed on people based on their sex?

FWIW, I got a nose job “for myself” as a teen. Had I lived in a world where all noses were seen as equally beautiful, would I have felt the need to do it? It’s unknowable, but I doubt it.

I don't know that it's a matter of it being a "phase" but more a matter of this generation wanting to label and proclaim (which is totally fine; it's the stage in life to carve out identities).

I'm an older Gen Xer woman and have always felt some degree of attraction to other women. I fooled around a bit with another girl when I was young, had my fantasies. Did not have sex or relationships with women until I was older, post-divorce. It never would have occurred to me to call myself bisexual when I was young and, even now, I just don't talk about it or make it a part of my identity in any way. Those who have known me through the years figured out that I'm not strictly heterosexual when they saw me in a long-term relationship with a woman, but I've never proclaimed myself bi, queer, hetero, or whatever. And, believe me, there are quite a bit of us fluid people around and always have been. It's just that now identifying, labeling, announcing it, and making it part of your identity is a thing and for us older folks it wasn't.

Back to whether it’s a phase or not… I am not LGBTQ, but do have a gay brother, now 49. We always knew he was gay. Yes, he did the stereotypical things as a kid - not into sports, having many girl friends, but never any girlfriends, and came out when he was 20 (but we all knew!)
My DD just came out as bisexual and gender fluid at 17 and this came out of NOWHERE. Had a boyfriend in 10th grade, never had any gender confusion at all – girl all the way; likes dance, hair and makeup, dresses, and still does even post gender fluid announcement. The only change was after covid she went back to in-person school and started hanging out with a very queer crowd. Great and smart kids, by the way.
I know there is not one path to discovering your sexuality, but this was a shocker. If it’s not a phase, great. My brother who I adore is in a healthier relationship than most of the hetero couples I know. But I have my doubts of whether she is doing this to fit in to her friend group, as teens often do. Time will tell.

Anonymous wrote:Oh, and to answer the OP. I am a cis female queer Gen Xer living a visibly queer life with a visibly queer job.

I also have a gender nonconforming kid.

It's FINE. The kids are absolutely fine. In fact, the kids are amazing. They are funny and smart and questioning everything and coming up with sometimes ridiculous new names, and it's all wonderful and perfect and cringe in exactly the way that teens are supposed to be wonderful and cringe.

^^^ THIS thank you. Another unashamed adult queer.