Anonymous wrote:Interesting article. Particularly interested in what people who think it is "harder to get admitted now" think of it.

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/13/1072529477/more-than-1-million-fewer-students-are-in-college-the-lowest-enrollment-numbers-

Not in schools that matter to us, in these forums. Who cares if podunk university that the last ranking kid goes to now has to shut down? They don't deserve to exist anyways. More than likely, they conned the kids into going there and their congress lackeys enabled that through wasteful student loans.

Anonymous wrote:Nearly 3 pages and nobody has mentioned college readiness rates for young men. They're in the toilet. Why wouldn't college enrollments drop when less than 1 in 3 boys can even meet the fairly low bar of "college ready"? Most American boys are dull and unambitious dipsh*ts addicted to vape, marijuana, videos games, porn, and/or sports gambling. It's really sad. And nobody cares.

How depressing. I have a kid who is not a straight A student, but he’s not these things either. I feel better about his prospects.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again with the ROI poster.

My kid is not a Hedge Fund.

Sure it's your money and your kids life

I don't seek monetary profit from raising them.

We are talking about monetary waste and time waste

Overall, the ROI of college is strong financially and socially. 25% of college students marry an alum from their college--that also adds to the household ROI. Health outcomes are higher for people with each year of college.
The kids who end up the worst--that can't get through college and take out excessive loans-- may not have the resources, skills, dispositions to move up the ladder in careers either. Even if on average the ROI of a Psych degree is minimal (as modeled by the author), it's not nothing--and they got to spend 4 years improving their minds and their social circles and likely end up with a cushier job--and they didn't spend those 4 years working and still ended up in same or slightly better financial place than if they went straight to work. They can also likely work a lot longer (the author modeled working until 65--people in non college-educated jobs are often pushed out of their careers at a younger age by health or physical limitations).

I think this isn't nearly as black and white as people think.

I think college degrees have added value for black and Latino kids.

I also think that college degrees often provide access to more white collar jobs, with more pleasant working conditions, benefits, a longer career span and fewer chances of getting injured on the job. Even if the lifetime earnings were the same, I would prefer to work at a white collar job than, for example, as a heating and a/c tech because hard, physical labor takes a toll on your body.

All of this always depends on the person, how academically inclined they are, how college finances will work out and what their own personality/ goals are.

I know a kid who graduated in the middle of the pandemic from a very good private university with an arts major and, despite the charts, is earning over $60k. Is that a lot less than an engineering major? Sure - but it's more than he would have been earning without the degree.

kids apply to so many colleges but at the end of the day they can only attend one that their parents can afford or they are willing to go in debt for.

Anonymous wrote:But look at application numbers…they are up everywhere!!

common app-the same kids ae applying to like 20-25 place instead of 5-10

im also thinking that b/c of the sheer number of apps, these kids aren't crafting really strong essays etc.. either .. maybe has some roll in rejection rate?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again with the ROI poster.

My kid is not a Hedge Fund.

Sure it's your money and your kids life

I don't seek monetary profit from raising them.

We are talking about monetary waste and time waste

But look at application numbers…they are up everywhere!!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there is a significant segment of our society that was sold on the "value" of a college education over the past 20 years as enrollment rose by 30%. The shock of the past two years awoke a lot of young people to the costs and debt burden of college while revealing a working world that doesn't financially justify the expense.

None of that applies to the typical DCUM household but I see it in the families of my coworkers who are in the $30k-$70k income demographic.

But that is the group that is most benefitted by college actually. They get decent FA and the lifetime economic benefits of a college degree still vastly outweigh the costs.

Ugh, this is just not true. They get decent FA if they happen to be studious/talented and know about schools that offer FA and are accepted at a school that provides such aid, but many will attend schools where they have to take out significant loans.

Also, there are numerous degrees that have negative ROIs on average. Add to that, they know many people that take out loans and only make it 2 years, so now it is the worst of both worlds...no degree and student loans.

Well the data do suggest that the economic benefit is true--on average--and for kids from this family income group. The best path for the less academically able is CC then transfer. Just because some make bad decisions (e.g., attend a for profit college, take out excessive loans for a low-paying major) doesn't make the overall pattern less true. I think we as a society have to provide better guidance on taking out loans and the ROI on different career paths, but college is still paying off---especially for those from middle class families.

Great, so if we just fix overall society problems...then hey, no worries. Here are the facts below. Something for either side of the debate glob onto:

Key Findings (https://freopp.org/is-college-worth-it-a-comprehensive-return-on-investment-analysis-1b2ad17f84c8)
This report estimates return on investment (ROI) — the increase in lifetime earnings minus the costs of college — for nearly 30,000 bachelor’s degrees.
For students who graduate on time, the median bachelor’s degree has a net ROI of $306,000. But some degrees are worth millions of dollars, while others have no net financial value at all.
After accounting for the risk of dropping out, ROI for the median bachelor’s degree drops to $129,000. Over a quarter of programs have negative ROI.
Four in five engineering programs have ROI above $500,000, but the same is true for just 1% of psychology programs.
Elite schools such as Caltech and Penn dominate the list of highest ROI programs. But attending an elite school is not a golden ticket; some Ivy League degrees have negative ROI.

They didn't measure lifetime earnings here--only to age 45. That's where the difference between being educated and not make a big difference. Many analysis do the full 40 year ROI.

Not sure why you think that. The calculation from the link:

ROI for 30,000 bachelor’s degrees
I define ROI as the present discounted value of lifetime earnings with a college degree, minus the present discounted value of counterfactual earnings (including earnings while enrolled in college), minus the cost of tuition, required fees, books, and equipment. For the initial ROI calculation, I assume the student spends exactly four years in college, graduates, starts working at age 23, and retires at age 65. (We’ll relax some of these assumptions in a bit.)

The ROI salary data points are 25, 35 and 45 years old. The author just extrapolates from those.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again with the ROI poster.

My kid is not a Hedge Fund.

Sure it's your money and your kids life

I don't seek monetary profit from raising them.

What does that have to do with the theme of the post...why there are 1 million fewer students in college. Let's be honest, take yourself out of the DMV bubble. Most parents/kids go to college to get a good job (i.e., one that pays much more than a job without a college degree)...if that relationship seems to be breaking down, then they drop out.

This was never a thread about how the average DCUM user views college.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Again with the ROI poster.

My kid is not a Hedge Fund.

Sure it's your money and your kids life

I don't seek monetary profit from raising them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there is a significant segment of our society that was sold on the "value" of a college education over the past 20 years as enrollment rose by 30%. The shock of the past two years awoke a lot of young people to the costs and debt burden of college while revealing a working world that doesn't financially justify the expense.

None of that applies to the typical DCUM household but I see it in the families of my coworkers who are in the $30k-$70k income demographic.

But that is the group that is most benefitted by college actually. They get decent FA and the lifetime economic benefits of a college degree still vastly outweigh the costs.

Ugh, this is just not true. They get decent FA if they happen to be studious/talented and know about schools that offer FA and are accepted at a school that provides such aid, but many will attend schools where they have to take out significant loans.

Also, there are numerous degrees that have negative ROIs on average. Add to that, they know many people that take out loans and only make it 2 years, so now it is the worst of both worlds...no degree and student loans.

Well the data do suggest that the economic benefit is true--on average--and for kids from this family income group. The best path for the less academically able is CC then transfer. Just because some make bad decisions (e.g., attend a for profit college, take out excessive loans for a low-paying major) doesn't make the overall pattern less true. I think we as a society have to provide better guidance on taking out loans and the ROI on different career paths, but college is still paying off---especially for those from middle class families.

Great, so if we just fix overall society problems...then hey, no worries. Here are the facts below. Something for either side of the debate glob onto:

Key Findings (https://freopp.org/is-college-worth-it-a-comprehensive-return-on-investment-analysis-1b2ad17f84c8)
This report estimates return on investment (ROI) — the increase in lifetime earnings minus the costs of college — for nearly 30,000 bachelor’s degrees.
For students who graduate on time, the median bachelor’s degree has a net ROI of $306,000. But some degrees are worth millions of dollars, while others have no net financial value at all.
After accounting for the risk of dropping out, ROI for the median bachelor’s degree drops to $129,000. Over a quarter of programs have negative ROI.
Four in five engineering programs have ROI above $500,000, but the same is true for just 1% of psychology programs.
Elite schools such as Caltech and Penn dominate the list of highest ROI programs. But attending an elite school is not a golden ticket; some Ivy League degrees have negative ROI.

They didn't measure lifetime earnings here--only to age 45. That's where the difference between being educated and not make a big difference. Many analysis do the full 40 year ROI.

Not sure why you think that. The calculation from the link:

ROI for 30,000 bachelor’s degrees
I define ROI as the present discounted value of lifetime earnings with a college degree, minus the present discounted value of counterfactual earnings (including earnings while enrolled in college), minus the cost of tuition, required fees, books, and equipment. For the initial ROI calculation, I assume the student spends exactly four years in college, graduates, starts working at age 23, and retires at age 65. (We’ll relax some of these assumptions in a bit.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there is a significant segment of our society that was sold on the "value" of a college education over the past 20 years as enrollment rose by 30%. The shock of the past two years awoke a lot of young people to the costs and debt burden of college while revealing a working world that doesn't financially justify the expense.

None of that applies to the typical DCUM household but I see it in the families of my coworkers who are in the $30k-$70k income demographic.

But that is the group that is most benefitted by college actually. They get decent FA and the lifetime economic benefits of a college degree still vastly outweigh the costs.

Ugh, this is just not true. They get decent FA if they happen to be studious/talented and know about schools that offer FA and are accepted at a school that provides such aid, but many will attend schools where they have to take out significant loans.

Also, there are numerous degrees that have negative ROIs on average. Add to that, they know many people that take out loans and only make it 2 years, so now it is the worst of both worlds...no degree and student loans.

Well the data do suggest that the economic benefit is true--on average--and for kids from this family income group. The best path for the less academically able is CC then transfer. Just because some make bad decisions (e.g., attend a for profit college, take out excessive loans for a low-paying major) doesn't make the overall pattern less true. I think we as a society have to provide better guidance on taking out loans and the ROI on different career paths, but college is still paying off---especially for those from middle class families.

Great, so if we just fix overall society problems...then hey, no worries. Here are the facts below. Something for either side of the debate glob onto:

Key Findings (https://freopp.org/is-college-worth-it-a-comprehensive-return-on-investment-analysis-1b2ad17f84c8)
This report estimates return on investment (ROI) — the increase in lifetime earnings minus the costs of college — for nearly 30,000 bachelor’s degrees.
For students who graduate on time, the median bachelor’s degree has a net ROI of $306,000. But some degrees are worth millions of dollars, while others have no net financial value at all.
After accounting for the risk of dropping out, ROI for the median bachelor’s degree drops to $129,000. Over a quarter of programs have negative ROI.
Four in five engineering programs have ROI above $500,000, but the same is true for just 1% of psychology programs.
Elite schools such as Caltech and Penn dominate the list of highest ROI programs. But attending an elite school is not a golden ticket; some Ivy League degrees have negative ROI.

They didn't measure lifetime earnings here--only to age 45. That's where the difference between being educated and not make a big difference. Many analysis do the full 40 year ROI.

That really does not make any sense...the nominal ROI will be higher for the engineering grad over that time period, but it will just be more negative for the 99% of the psychology graduates. If you are not established in your career at 45, it is rare/exceedingly hard to make it up starting at that time.

So yes, the overall ROI of $306,000 should go up...although remember that once you go beyond the 23rd year (i.e., average kid graduates at 22), the nominal discounted amounts get very small.

A typical trajectory for many liberal arts majors is to work for a while, then go to graduate school. Psychology majors are also predominately women who may slow down work pace to raise children return to graduate school and then have highest earnings 35+. The actual data of 40 years returns show this.

You may be right...post it for all to see.

https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/collegeroi/

Anonymous wrote:Again with the ROI poster.

My kid is not a Hedge Fund.

What does this mean?

Anonymous wrote:Again with the ROI poster.

My kid is not a Hedge Fund.

Sure it's your money and your kids life