Anonymous wrote:Yup, GPA and LSAT. Go to the best law school you are accepted into if you want to get a job.

Disagree with this advice. I turned down better schools for a T50 school that offered me a substantial scholarship. I graduated law school debt free. I graduated top 10% and was on the law review board and had many offers from top tier firms. I ended up hating big law and it was easy to leave after 5 years because I had no debt and substantial savings. YMMV. Don't listen to absolutist advice, though.

Anonymous wrote:DD's friend (not in Law school yet) got perfect LSAT (180 is it?) but DD says her college GPA isn't very good. Smart kid - one of those marching to her own drum beat - kinda kid. How do LS see kids like that?

In law school application land this is called a "splitter". Some schools are know to be "splitter-friendly" and some aren't. A person with that record should probably apply more broadly than someone with a GPA/LSAT in the same range, because it'll be more unpredictable which schools accept them.

There are entire other message boards devoted to the minutiae of law school admissions, if that's a thing you're interested in.

Anonymous wrote:DD's friend (not in Law school yet) got perfect LSAT (180 is it?) but DD says her college GPA isn't very good. Smart kid - one of those marching to her own drum beat - kinda kid. How do LS see kids like that?

She should apply widely. She'll get in somewhere good--high GPAs are a dime a dozen, 180s ain't--but there's no way to predict where. (Likewise, somewhere decent outside the T14 will offer her a ride, but good luck predicting where.)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do you mean by "top"? With a GPA of 3.75+ and an LSAT of 175+, you'll get into Chicago and Columbia and will have a shot at HYS. Drop the LSAT to 170+ and you'll get in to at least a couple T14 schools. Drop GPA to 3.5+ and LSAT to 170+ and you have a shot at T14 but it's not guaranteed. And things start to get really sketchy once you drop under 170. (Yeah, lots of kids get into T14 and even T3 schools with LSATs in the 160s, but lots more don't.)

I am once again begging people who haven't been through Law School admissions in the last couple of years to familiarize themselves with the current landscape.
The top admissions consultant has published this list of 2020 and 2021 admissions stats:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oxg1daKToiMystD7rGrbpnHNO-JXdc2ugQMrR0YR7aQ/edit#gid=0

For Columbia last year, the medians for accepted students were 174 LSAT, 3.84 GPA
For Chicago, they were 172 and 3.91

The highest-ranked schools with a median GPA near 3.75 were:
Boston U (3.77, median LSAT 169)
Notre Dame (3.77, 167)
UNC (3.73, 164)

There were 15 schools with a 170 median last year; the lowest media GPA among them was 3.8

Did you miss the "+"? Yeah, if you slip into the box with exactly a 175 and exactly a 3.75, you might get rejected by either Chicago or Columbia. On a crazy bad day, maybe even both. But with any margin above either line, you're getting into both.

Anonymous wrote:What do you mean by "top"? With a GPA of 3.75+ and an LSAT of 175+, you'll get into Chicago and Columbia and will have a shot at HYS. Drop the LSAT to 170+ and you'll get in to at least a couple T14 schools. Drop GPA to 3.5+ and LSAT to 170+ and you have a shot at T14 but it's not guaranteed. And things start to get really sketchy once you drop under 170. (Yeah, lots of kids get into T14 and even T3 schools with LSATs in the 160s, but lots more don't.)

I am once again begging people who haven't been through Law School admissions in the last couple of years to familiarize themselves with the current landscape.
The top admissions consultant has published this list of 2020 and 2021 admissions stats:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Oxg1daKToiMystD7rGrbpnHNO-JXdc2ugQMrR0YR7aQ/edit#gid=0

For Columbia last year, the medians for accepted students were 174 LSAT, 3.84 GPA
For Chicago, they were 172 and 3.91

The highest-ranked schools with a median GPA near 3.75 were:
Boston U (3.77, median LSAT 169)
Notre Dame (3.77, 167)
UNC (3.73, 164)

There were 15 schools with a 170 median last year; the lowest media GPA among them was 3.8

Anonymous wrote:Got to one of these 30 schools
https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-law-school

1 University of California, Berkeley
2 Cornell University
3 Harvard University
4 Yale University
5 University of Michigan
6 University of Pennsylvania
7 University of California, Los Angeles
8 Columbia University
9 Georgetown University
10 University of Chicago
10 Duke University
12 Princeton University
13 University of Virginia
14 New York University
15 Stanford University
16 Northwestern University
17 University of Southern California
18 Washington University in St. Louis
19 University of Florida School of Law
20 Brown University
21 University of Texas at Austin
22 Vanderbilt University
23 University of Maryland, College Park
24 Emory University
24 University of Notre Dame
24 Boston College 70
27 Dartmouth College
27 George Washington University
29 University of California, San Diego
29 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Law schools are largely driven by LSAT and GPA (used by USNWR rankings), so I'd argue undergraduate schools don't make that much difference.

If you are going to factor undergraduate schools, the list adjusted for size of student body would probably be much more meaningful if you are looking at increasing individual odds.

1 Yale University
2 Princeton University
3 Amherst College
4 Harvard University
5 University of Chicago
6 Duke University
7 Columbia University
8 Georgetown University
9 Pomona College
10 Yeshiva University
11 Stanford University
12 Claremont McKenna College
13 Swarthmore College
14 Barnard College
15 Dartmouth College
16 University of Pennsylvania
17 Cornell University
18 Northwestern University
19 Williams College
20 Wesleyan University
21 Rice University
22 Washington University in St. Louis
23 Brown University
24 Vanderbilt University
25 Bowdoin College
26 Washington and Lee University
27 Tufts University
28 Brandeis University
29 Colgate University
30 Bryn Mawr College

I work in law school admissions at a T50 school. All about the LSAT and GPA for us. You can be from podunk college that many people have never heard of but if you have a 3.9 from there plus a good LSAT, you are always juggling multiple offers.

Close friend of mine at our T5 law school had over a 4.0 at state school for college, so yes it worked out great on the admissions side. But then, my very smart friend got their butt kicked first year, didn't know how to take hard exams because college had been so easy and writing expectations were not high. So be careful what you wish for.

Anonymous wrote:Got to one of these 30 schools
https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-law-school

Meh. Many threads have been over and over and over this. Correlation is not causation. "Feeders" are a myth perpetuated by nonlawyers who don't know any better. Go to a T14 and talk to your classmates, whose undergrads will span highly selective privates to many state flagships to regional universities.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Doing very well at a lower ranked undergrad helps you more than doing just okay at a top undergrad. Law schools care about your numbers most of all, so if everything else was equal a 4.0 at NC state, or whatever, is going to get you admitted to Yale Law over a 3.5 at Princeton UG. Being an underrepresented minority also helps a lot. Everything else like activities and awards counts only at the margins.

I disagree with this, the T30 colleges had multiple students in my T5 law school class while lower ranked schools did not have more than one. It’s always possible for a super strong kid from a lower ranked school to get in, but it’s an easier route from a top ranked undergraduate school.

Yes but the students from those top undergrads had top grades as well, or maybe several years of work experience somewhere impressive (many of my law school classmates had worked at banks or consulting companies).

The point is that a 3.2 from Stanford is still not getting you into Yale Law unless you have both a very high LSAT (178+) AND another super high value trait, like being a speechwriter for a Senator or something. It takes a lot for schools to accept a low GPA or LSAT because if they do it too often it really drags down their numbers and that hurts rankings, which are considered really important for law schools.

A top law school sont accept a bunch of students from top undergrads with inferior numbers because they don’t need to and it will hurt them in the long run.

True. During the recession, when the number of applicants dropped, some top law schools reduced their class sizes rather than lower their standards for stats.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My sister got into basically all the best law schools (Harvard, Stanford). She went to a state school, had good grades, did student government and debate, nailed her LSAT (over 170), and worked legal and government internships during the summers.

You can 100% go to a state school and get into a top law school.

The process has changed a lot. A 170 is no longer “ nailing it” and it is difficult to get a clerkship or good job out of a state law school unless its UVA or UCLA.

She said her sister went to a state school for undergrad. In any event, ever hear of Michigan Law? How about Boalt Hall?

It’s not called Boalt Hall anymore smarty pants

Noted. I appreciate the correction.

Anonymous wrote:Got to one of these 30 schools
https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-law-school

1 University of California, Berkeley
2 Cornell University
3 Harvard University
4 Yale University
5 University of Michigan
6 University of Pennsylvania
7 University of California, Los Angeles
8 Columbia University
9 Georgetown University
10 University of Chicago
10 Duke University
12 Princeton University
13 University of Virginia
14 New York University
15 Stanford University
16 Northwestern University
17 University of Southern California
18 Washington University in St. Louis
19 University of Florida School of Law
20 Brown University
21 University of Texas at Austin
22 Vanderbilt University
23 University of Maryland, College Park
24 Emory University
24 University of Notre Dame
24 Boston College 70
27 Dartmouth College
27 George Washington University
29 University of California, San Diego
29 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill

Meh. Statistics can be misleading. Many of these schools have their own law schools and favor their own undergrad applicants. But ok.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My sister got into basically all the best law schools (Harvard, Stanford). She went to a state school, had good grades, did student government and debate, nailed her LSAT (over 170), and worked legal and government internships during the summers.

You can 100% go to a state school and get into a top law school.

The process has changed a lot. A 170 is no longer “ nailing it” and it is difficult to get a clerkship or good job out of a state law school unless its UVA or UCLA.

She said her sister went to a state school for undergrad. In any event, ever hear of Michigan Law? How about Boalt Hall?

It’s not called Boalt Hall anymore smarty pants

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Probably an unpopular opinion but.....personally, I think if you can get into a top law school, maybe you should go to a law school ranked a little further down **if** you can get a free ride.

You should be able to be at the top of the class at a less competitive school, and if you don't have any loans upon graduation, you have way more options IMO. Especially if you don't have any outside financial assistance from family, etc.

+1 for everyone except those with extremely specific career goals that require graduating from a top school (circuit court clerkship, law professor, practice at top NYC firms).

I know grads from lower ranked schools who have worked at a high level in the DOJ, landed great federal clerkships, gotten jobs at terrific AmLaw 200 firms, worked in house at major Silicon Valley companies, etc. And I also know many, many grads of top schools who worked a few years at a firm, got laid off, hated their next firm, burned out on law.

Graduating law school without loans is a major gift. Little about your law career is guaranteed.

+1

I graduated debt free from a school consistently ranked at the lower end of the T25. I landed a prestigious federal appellate clerkship and got job offers from literally every firm in Biglaw that I applied to. I did very well in law school though.

Got to one of these 30 schools
https://www.collegetransitions.com/dataverse/top-feeders-law-school

1 University of California, Berkeley
2 Cornell University
3 Harvard University
4 Yale University
5 University of Michigan
6 University of Pennsylvania
7 University of California, Los Angeles
8 Columbia University
9 Georgetown University
10 University of Chicago
10 Duke University
12 Princeton University
13 University of Virginia
14 New York University
15 Stanford University
16 Northwestern University
17 University of Southern California
18 Washington University in St. Louis
19 University of Florida School of Law
20 Brown University
21 University of Texas at Austin
22 Vanderbilt University
23 University of Maryland, College Park
24 Emory University
24 University of Notre Dame
24 Boston College 70
27 Dartmouth College
27 George Washington University
29 University of California, San Diego
29 University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill