Anonymous wrote:Sorry, but this whole gifting grooming narc thing is not the only reason. I had a falling out with my sibling after one of our parents died. It was already a strained relationship, but as the only aunt to my teen niece and nephew (who I had a good relationship with) I didn't send bday gifts to manipulate them. I sent them because I always had and so they wouldn't feel punished just because I don't speak to their parent! One kid responded well to this and we have a positive relationship esp now that she's older. The other one went AWOL so I stopped reaching out and sending gifts. So there you have it, one of them responded in kind and the other decided to cut off contact -- I respected the latter's boundary and stopped reaching out. I had aunts and uncles that peeled off throughout my own childhood because of our parents (yes, estrangement runs in the family) and it really hurt. I still feel sad about it as an adult! I never wanted these two kids to think I no longer cared, so I simply followed their lead. That's not narc behavior, that's me trying to do the right thing.

It's concerning you revived this thread to try to convince yourself it's totally fine to violate boundaries that were set. If someone decides you are toxic to their family and doesn't want you involved, as heartbreaking as that may be you respect their wishes. Sending stuff just creates drama. "As the only aunt" is not some entitlement. Kids are confused by all sorts of things. The creepy uncle who grooms they may be a favorite uncle at first. That doesn't make it OK. If you are hurt get therapy. Leave the kids alone. You don't overstep a boundary "to show you care." If a parent asked you to stop kissing a child or tickling them would you do it anyway to show you cared just because one of the kids laughed once or smiled at first?

Estrangement is not always for good reason. Sometimes parents are estranged from family members because THEY are unstable or toxic. My SIL has borderline personality disorder, at least, and veers from extreme closeness and dependency to malignant paranoia, which spreads form one person she suspected of trying to steal from her to another and another. Sometimes I am the favored aunt. Sometimes I am her mortal enemy.

Meanwhile my nephews are jerked around at her every whim. I send them birthday and Christmas cards and presents every year, whether she is speaking to me or not. It is not their fault that their birthday may fall when their mom’s pendulum has swing to hate us. I always call and text and try to be in touch. One day, out of the blue, she will let us back in. Sometime later, out of the blue, we will be banished again.

The kids are old enough now to know that it is not us that decides whether we are in touch. We love them always and want yo see them always and remember them always. They know they have gotten cards and gifts each year no matter what, even if they did not always receive them. I’m a world when so much else is uncertain for them, they know at least that we will never stop trying and never stop loving them.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Since you don’t mention the reasons behind the estrangement, I give the BIL credit for making an effort to maintain some type of positive relationship with the kids — who did not have any input in any decisions to end their relationships with their uncle.

Kids are more than little extensions of their parents. You also don’t mention the ages of the kids, so I’ll use my imagination. Why should a 9 year old, who loves his uncle, aunt, and cousins, lose what could be lifelong positive relationships because his Dad and his uncle have a vehement disagreement about the tax code? I would let the kids have the gifts and send thank you notes — unless they, themselves, have issues with their uncle — unless the reasons for the estrangement are truly egregious.

What kids need most is a healthy immediate family unit and friends. It's bonus points if they have healthy extended family relationships, but not as crucial to their well-being as a healthy immediate unit. It is not the place of the uncle or anyone to overstep parental boundaries and gifts are not love. Yes, kids are not extensions of parents, but they are part of a family unit that needs to be respected. I would not have to kids get entangled by playing into the manipulations and sending than yous. I would let them know the relationship is not healthy and we are having space from uncle Narc for a while.

But what if it’s the father who is “unhealthy”? I’m not sure why you created “uncle Narc” — but all we know is that the two brothers are estranged. Maybe you have the right take on this. Or maybe Dad is batshit crazy, and the uncle is trying to do what he can to be a positive presence in the kids’ lives. From the information presented, we — or at least I — really don’t know.

Buying love is not the way to be a positive presence. Really when someone sets a boundary you just have to respect it. if you know there is abuse you get CPS involved, but otherwise leave it alone. Sending gifts adds un-needed drama/ Now, if the kids reach out to the uncle that is something else. They are pretty capable at an early age especially with everyone getting phones.

Sending gifts is not buying love. It is a tangible way to show children that they are seen, that they matter, that they are not forgotten. That they are loved. It’s not about the adult trying to earn love. It’s about signaling to the children that they matter to the adult.

Another view from the opposite side:

ILs were opposed to DH and me marrying. They cut off contact after the wedding. DH tried repeatedly over the years to mend fences and try to bring the family back together. DH’s parents responded, but DH’s sibling didn’t. After the sibling had each child, DH sent a gift, again, to try to mend fences. We received the gifts returned to sender.

Fast forward 30 years and the sibling who opposed the marriage is now divorced from their spouse. ILs are not speaking to the sibling. DH has a good relationship with sibling and nieces and nephews. Many family members stay away from ILs + sibling because they saw over the years how toxic they are. I’m sure sibling felt justified in their head for sending the gifts back, but their truth wasn’t THE truth. DH wasn’t being creepy or trying to manipulate or groom anyone. He just wanted his family back.

OP, why is the sibling estranged?

Sorry, but this whole gifting grooming narc thing is not the only reason. I had a falling out with my sibling after one of our parents died. It was already a strained relationship, but as the only aunt to my teen niece and nephew (who I had a good relationship with) I didn't send bday gifts to manipulate them. I sent them because I always had and so they wouldn't feel punished just because I don't speak to their parent! One kid responded well to this and we have a positive relationship esp now that she's older. The other one went AWOL so I stopped reaching out and sending gifts. So there you have it, one of them responded in kind and the other decided to cut off contact -- I respected the latter's boundary and stopped reaching out. I had aunts and uncles that peeled off throughout my own childhood because of our parents (yes, estrangement runs in the family) and it really hurt. I still feel sad about it as an adult! I never wanted these two kids to think I no longer cared, so I simply followed their lead. That's not narc behavior, that's me trying to do the right thing.

Anonymous wrote:It's such a strange and deranged way for a person who is estranged to try to connect with you. They are trying to buy love and make you feel guilt and obligation. Gifts can be so manipulative. You can take them and donate them. You can do "return to sender" but it does create drama. I would not do "thank you" notes unless you want to engage with the person. I used to think it was wrong to not write a thank you note, but that was before I understood just how manipulative the narcissists in my family are.

This helped me see something in a new way. Thank you.

NP

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let the kids have the stuff.

+1

I wish my brother, who hasn't talked to me in 10 years would acknowledge that my two children (now 19 and 15) exist. It would be nice for them to have an uncle....no matter how much of a dip-sh!t he is.

Why? If you were estranged from a former friend would you want that person in the lives of your kids? Estrangement usually stems from very toxic behavior which can include abuse. What are you hoping for? A card? Presents? Visits? if so, why? Don't you want to protect them? Is it more important that he is family than that he be a decent person?

Anonymous wrote:Don’t know your situation. Do know family where the estranged sibling still cares about the nieces and nephews. Estranged has just can’t cope with family drama. (I know all the siblings and have heard from all of them.)

Not always, no. Estrangement ca. Be the result of abusive, toxic behaviors that are ultimately damaging. They can be the result of addiction. They can be brought on my disagreements about life choices or people revealing their true selves in conflict with family norms (however misguided those norms are). They can be the result of a whole array of things that are not just about rising above drama.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let the kids have the stuff.

+1

I wish my brother, who hasn't talked to me in 10 years would acknowledge that my two children (now 19 and 15) exist. It would be nice for them to have an uncle....no matter how much of a dip-sh!t he is.

You and your kids don’t need his affirmation and certainly gifts would be an incredibly superficial, manipulative way for him to try and connect with his niece and nephew.

Anonymous wrote:Let the kids have the stuff.

+1

I wish my brother, who hasn't talked to me in 10 years would acknowledge that my two children (now 19 and 15) exist. It would be nice for them to have an uncle....no matter how much of a dip-sh!t he is.

Don’t know your situation. Do know family where the estranged sibling still cares about the nieces and nephews. Estranged has just can’t cope with family drama. (I know all the siblings and have heard from all of them.)

access not axis

Anonymous wrote:The Gifts aren't for YOU. the gifts are for your children from their uncle.

now its possible that you have a very good reason for not liking/talking to your brother.

explain to your children why you don't like their uncle.

its possible for them to have a healthy relationship with their uncle (unless hes a molester or otherwise abusive) even though you don't like him.

Um....abusive people don't get to give gifts to children. That's called grooming and we don't tolerate that. My creepy sibling is so desperate to groom my kids for the abuse drama and manipulations. Just because your family doesn't mean I will give a nut axis to my kids.

I understand you are estranged however you kept the money without doing anything.

Now you get a present and you want to send it back.

You will send a message that says you are happy to have contact for cash but nothing else.

It was no accident you didn't get cash this time around. Your estranged family member knows you better than you know yourself.

My in laws cut us out of their lives a few years ago but still send cards to our kids with $10 or $20 for birthdays and holidays. I open up the envelopes, put the money in my kids respective bank accounts, and make no mention of it to the kids.

You don’t get to pick and choose - you cut us out of your life, ok. You don’t get to try and wheedle affection from my kids. But sure, I’ll take the money and give it to the kids …. They just won’t know it’s from you.