Anonymous
Post 12/01/2018 09:25     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Reindeer, gnomes and elves are not mentioned in any holy book. Neither are fairies or Disney characters
Is snowman ok?
Did you know that a reindeer has a split hoof and chews it's cud
You can purchase reindeer meat in northern regions.
Anonymous
Post 12/01/2018 09:02     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
14:45, you sound like you have an ax to grind.

I’m Jewish and we enjoy our Christmas tree, which was stolen from paganism. Moreover, we don’t view as a birthday nod to Jesus, who apparently was born in the summertime anyway.
Anonymous
Post 12/01/2018 08:38     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Why would a Jewish person care how others celebrate Christmas or where the tradition comes from?
And why the focus on shunning everything related to the way things are done in the land? That sounds almost cult like segregation mentally

Because the “way things are done in the land” is a symbol of a religion that is not ours.

I’m not trying to tuck anyone’s yum; I understand why some Jews—especially intermarried Jews—have Christmas trees. But there’s a difference between the original intent of a symbol and what a symbol grows to mean. And the tree/lights/Santa mean “Christmas.” Which is a holiday I don’t celebrate.


I must again point out the massive flaw in your reasoning.

If a symbol can "grow to mean" one thing from another, why can't that happen again?

Why can't it go from pagan to mostly religious to non-religious?
Anonymous
Post 12/01/2018 08:14     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Wow, you actually listed intermarriage as one of the sins of the century

Why is this a shock to you? Jews are all about self preservation. I don't understand why so many Christians, Muslims, and others get their feelings hurt when they discover that Jews don't have any love for them. Jews are all about Jews. Advancing Jews, marrying Jews, upholding Jews, etc. Christians and other outsiders don't coincide with Jews. I don't care how nice or cordial a Jew is towards you. You have to realize that its all about them and them alone. Jews are taught for the time that they are born that it is them against the world. Intermarriage is a threat to Jews and many will disown relatives or ostracize those who don't come into the fold. Intermarriage goes against the tribal mentality and we can't have any of that. Do all Jews think this way? Of course not. However, many do and their opposition to intermarriage is really about outsiders invading their tribe and stealing one of their own away. Some Jews feel like everytime a Jewish person intermarries it negatively impacts preserving their culture.

Much of this is absurd and offensive. I am a part of a (very) minority culture religiously here in the middle of the Midwest. I find comfort in members of my congregation, the same way that people seek out anyone who has similar interests to them—especially when people with those interests might be hard to find.

But the majority of my friends have never been Jewish. I donate to non-Jewish and secular charities. AND I’m an intermarried person working hard to raise my child Jewish. In fact, many of my Jewish friends are doing the same. None of us look down on Christians, Muslims, Hindus, or any other members of our community. We just do our own thing and educate our children the best we can. Just like everyone else.

And while we might at some point, we don’t have a Christmas tree in our house.
Anonymous
Post 12/01/2018 08:07     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:Why would a Jewish person care how others celebrate Christmas or where the tradition comes from?
And why the focus on shunning everything related to the way things are done in the land? That sounds almost cult like segregation mentally

Because the “way things are done in the land” is a symbol of a religion that is not ours.

I’m not trying to tuck anyone’s yum; I understand why some Jews—especially intermarried Jews—have Christmas trees. But there’s a difference between the original intent of a symbol and what a symbol grows to mean. And the tree/lights/Santa mean “Christmas.” Which is a holiday I don’t celebrate.
Anonymous
Post 12/01/2018 00:13     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Why would a Jewish person care how others celebrate Christmas or where the tradition comes from?
And why the focus on shunning everything related to the way things are done in the land? That sounds almost cult like segregation mentally
Anonymous
Post 11/30/2018 15:12     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Different poster here. I don't care what non-religious people do. What I find annoying -- not offensive, but annoying -- is people who keep claiming that Christmas is secular and therefore Jews should celebrate it as a secular or American holiday. If Christmas can be whatever it means, then I wish those posters (who may not be you) would understand that to most Jews, at least any who were raised with any religious or traditional fervor, Christmas means Christ. Even if the actual celebration for many people means Santa. Because Christmas means Christ, and Jews don't do Christ, Jews don't do Christmas. It's pretty simple.


Well that will be news to all the people insisting that Jews do Christ.

Which, as far as I can tell, is exactly zero people.

Not sure what the problem is, still.


There is an entire industry of people trying to get Jews to 'do' Christ.


Plus, the point is, to many Jews, telling us to just have a Christmas tree because it's secular is no different from telling us to celebrate Christmas or celebrate Christ. For some reason this is seems very hard for non-Jews to understand. It is very obvious to me and the other Jewish posters on here, however. So thanks to the PP above for the flip answer. "The problem" is exactly this -- we don't want to celebrate Christmas, and claiming that Christmas traditions are not really Christian, but pagan, doesn't change that. Also, turning a Christmas tree into a Hanukkah tree fools no one.


No one on this thread was telling Jews to have a Christmas tree. A Jewish person wants a Christmas tree and other Jews objected saying Christmas trees are about Jesus. Christians and others chimed in and said, based on their experience, it's transitioned into something more about Santa and gifts, not about Jesus. I'm willing to bet no non-Jew on this thread is telling Jews to have a Christmas tree. The only Christian that seemed to care if Jews had a Christmas tree was the "cultural appropriation" one who found Jews having Christmas trees offensive.


Its about assimilation - its partly about Jesus, partly about Santa (originally a Christian saint, BTW) and its about gifts (the giving of which at this time of year commemorates the gifts given to Jesus as recorded in Christian scripture). Which is why, on the whole American Jews as a community have rejected it even when they have not rejected all gentile "secular" customs.

What we are being told is no, you don't have to have a tree if say you don't like pine needles, or need space in your living room for your lego collection, or whatever, but that its NOT legitimate to reject a tree on, you know, JEWISH grounds, because of some debate among Christians about whether the tree is a pagan survival or not.

Anonymous
Post 11/30/2018 15:06     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Wow, you actually listed intermarriage as one of the sins of the century

Why is this a shock to you? Jews are all about self preservation. I don't understand why so many Christians, Muslims, and others get their feelings hurt when they discover that Jews don't have any love for them. Jews are all about Jews. Advancing Jews, marrying Jews, upholding Jews, etc. Christians and other outsiders don't coincide with Jews. I don't care how nice or cordial a Jew is towards you. You have to realize that its all about them and them alone. Jews are taught for the time that they are born that it is them against the world. Intermarriage is a threat to Jews and many will disown relatives or ostracize those who don't come into the fold. Intermarriage goes against the tribal mentality and we can't have any of that. Do all Jews think this way? Of course not. However, many do and their opposition to intermarriage is really about outsiders invading their tribe and stealing one of their own away. Some Jews feel like everytime a Jewish person intermarries it negatively impacts preserving their culture.


You need help.
Anonymous
Post 11/30/2018 15:06     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Intermarriage today can, doesn’t have to, mean assimilation. In 19th century Germany, intermarriage was assimilation, because, e.g., in many cases resulting children were baptized.
Anonymous
Post 11/30/2018 15:05     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Wow, you actually listed intermarriage as one of the sins of the century

Why is this a shock to you? Jews are all about self preservation. I don't understand why so many Christians, Muslims, and others get their feelings hurt when they discover that Jews don't have any love for them. Jews are all about Jews. Advancing Jews, marrying Jews, upholding Jews, etc. Christians and other outsiders don't coincide with Jews. I don't care how nice or cordial a Jew is towards you. You have to realize that its all about them and them alone. Jews are taught for the time that they are born that it is them against the world. Intermarriage is a threat to Jews and many will disown relatives or ostracize those who don't come into the fold. Intermarriage goes against the tribal mentality and we can't have any of that. Do all Jews think this way? Of course not. However, many do and their opposition to intermarriage is really about outsiders invading their tribe and stealing one of their own away. Some Jews feel like everytime a Jewish person intermarries it negatively impacts preserving their culture.


Plenty of Jews who give to charities that help non Jews, who work for causes to help non-Jews, want to preserve the survival of jews as a people and a culture.

Our desire to preserve ourselves as a people (which many but not all jews see intermarriage as a threat to) has nothing to do with whether or not we love others or or work to help others.

It may be that you havent thought this through. Or it may be you reasons for twisting this into "its all about them" is due to your being one of those parts of the world that is against them.
Anonymous
Post 11/30/2018 15:01     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:Wow, you actually listed intermarriage as one of the sins of the century


not the poster above, but it wasnt a list of sins but of steps to assimilate.
Anonymous
Post 11/30/2018 14:45     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:Wow, you actually listed intermarriage as one of the sins of the century

Why is this a shock to you? Jews are all about self preservation. I don't understand why so many Christians, Muslims, and others get their feelings hurt when they discover that Jews don't have any love for them. Jews are all about Jews. Advancing Jews, marrying Jews, upholding Jews, etc. Christians and other outsiders don't coincide with Jews. I don't care how nice or cordial a Jew is towards you. You have to realize that its all about them and them alone. Jews are taught for the time that they are born that it is them against the world. Intermarriage is a threat to Jews and many will disown relatives or ostracize those who don't come into the fold. Intermarriage goes against the tribal mentality and we can't have any of that. Do all Jews think this way? Of course not. However, many do and their opposition to intermarriage is really about outsiders invading their tribe and stealing one of their own away. Some Jews feel like everytime a Jewish person intermarries it negatively impacts preserving their culture.
Anonymous
Post 11/30/2018 13:46     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Wow, you actually listed intermarriage as one of the sins of the century
Anonymous
Post 11/29/2018 10:17     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:As this article points out, in the 19th century, many Germanic Jews celebrated Christmas as a secular holiday. When you combine that with the non-Christian origins of a Christmas tree, I really see no problems with it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.myjewishlearning.com/rabbis-without-borders/why-im-not-afraid-of-natalie-portmans-christmas-tree/amp/


Exactly, absolutely nothing happened in Germany, say, in the 20th century, of any importance at all - that should have should have any bearing whatsoever on Jewish identity...


What does that have to do with the practices of Germanic Jews in the 19th Century?


Hmmm. For starters 19th century was characterized by high levels of both antisemitism (e.g., Hep-Hep riots, lack of emancipation until 1870s.) and attendant assimilation to avoid the antisemitism, e.g., decorating Christmas trees, conversions, intermarriage, and otherwise and trying to be "good Germans." Then in the 1930s, the "good Germans" decided the Jews were not Germans at all, and murdered them in mass numbers. So, yes, the Holocaust has a lot of significance on Jewish identity - and whether or not to have a Christmas tree is a debate about Jewish identity.
Anonymous
Post 11/29/2018 09:25     Subject: Jews with Christmas/Holiday trees
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:As this article points out, in the 19th century, many Germanic Jews celebrated Christmas as a secular holiday. When you combine that with the non-Christian origins of a Christmas tree, I really see no problems with it.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.myjewishlearning.com/rabbis-without-borders/why-im-not-afraid-of-natalie-portmans-christmas-tree/amp/


Lol....why are you so determined to justify your tree? If you want a tree, get a tree. You obviously have some level of discomfort or you wouldn’t be frantically searching for some obscure precedent.


I haven't been posting much on this thread. It took 2 seconds to find that article. I just wanted to point out that it's a little ridiculous to get this worked up about a tree with some ornaments on it.