Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:FYI there are some "modesty" recommendations for men in Islam, but they're not nearly as strict as some of the suggestions you see for women. Men are advised to cover always from the navel to the knee (so no short shorts). And covering more when praying. Also growing a beard, wearing a sort of cap. But those are more for "don't be afraid to show you're Muslim" rather than "would you want an opened package of man-oreos?" or to protect men from lustful women who just can't help themselves.

You forgot the ban on silk and gold.

True - thanks for reminding me of that. Because "modesty" in Islam is not about skin or hair - at the core, it's more about humility. This is what I mean concerning the bastardization of "modesty" for many Muslims - many go through the motions without actually thinking. Don't be showy or draw attention to yourself - that's the intent. As a living text, those were the recommendations for the time. Things obviously change in different centuries, countries, and culture.

Anonymous wrote:
It doesn't bother me, it amuses me. I really don't understand your position of "should we accept this". We? You and whose army? No one is asking you to accept it, or to approve of it, or do it, or really be anything in relation to it. You are asking about reasons pertaining to a group of people that are wholly alien to you. Your approval, or lack thereof, or indeed your desire to fight till the day you die, means nothing to the Muslim community. I honestly don't understand why you are bringing your personal feelings into it as if they matter to Muslims. They don't. If you fight and die tomorrow, it will make zero difference. Is it important to you as a woman and a feminist to treat women equally? Ok. Treat women equally. There is nothing you can do to force anyone else to become you.

If this is your amused, I would hate to see you upset.

Let's recap: this is a discussion, and you have popped up protesting the discussion, but don't really want to participate or debate. And now you are saying "Muslims don't care what you think." But obviously, if you are Muslim, you care what I think, because you keep responding. You are simultaneously trying to distance yourself from the conversation and shut it down. It's not going to work.

These issues are important to discuss. It's a silly anonymous forum. You don't have to participate. And as a society, it is important that we figure out what parts of an ideology are acceptable and what are not. Many Christians believe homosexuality is a sin, but the larger society has decided that's no longer acceptable. It took a long time and a lot of work for our culture to reach the point where we decided that women are not objects or property and we're not even 100% there yet.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to God (in Islam), he wants adherents to be modest. That means to not stand out or stick out, be flashy or outlandish - both in clothing, and in lifestyle.

So the wealthy Arabs with the fancy cars, gaudy houses, but simple cotton garb? They're not modest.

Wearing niqab in most places? Not at ALL modest - you're completely drawing attention to yourself.

Hijab is becoming more commonplace, and I couldn't care less whether people wear it or not. But the hijabis with the high heals, leggings, and full face of makeup are comical.

In Islam, the goal is to not draw attention to yourself. The goal is NOT to cover up - but many Muslims themselves don't understand this distinction.

No, that's not the goal. Islam wants its adherents to be modest but not to avoid attention. It's to avoid attention for the wrong reasons. In a country where everyone wears a bikini day in and day out, Muslims are still required to cover, despite the fact that it will make them very obvious. One reason is to cover the parts that should be uncovered only to close family members. The other reason is to be known as Muslims. There is nothing in Islam to say that you should wear only the clothing that makes you unnoticeable.

Yes, that is the goal. There's a vast middle ground between wearing a bikini all day every day, and covering yourself from head to toe, all day every day.

What does it matter if a family member sees your hair? Do you think being family stops some people from molesting or raping family members? It does nothing. It's a symbolic excuse that does nothing.

The Quran says to cover your "ornaments" - so be simple and don't go around flashing your genitals to people. And yes, there are many verses in the Quran that suggest not being ostentatious (which does not mean covered up - it means 'don't stick out') in how you present yourself, while not hiding being a Muslim. The problem is many people interpret this into extremes (ie, your bikini example). There's a vast, completely healthy and faithful middle ground.

You misunderstood. Muslims are expected to be modest and not ostentatious, but the standard is not "so that you are not noticed." That is, if the dress code of the country where a Muslim happens to be is such that full coverage will draw attention - a lot of attention - the same rule of clothing still applies.

It doesn't matter if a family member sees your hair. It's a ritual, a symbol. Religions are full of them, that's the Muslim one.

Oh honey, I did not "misunderstand." Even many religious Muslims understand that "modesty" is not bound to timelessness and universality, but is something that requires constant adaption to circumstances.

And yes, it's a ritual, and all religions have them - that does not mean that the logicality cannot (or should not) be questioned. If you want to go through the ritual motions without engaging them, by all means do so. But that doesn't mean others don't have a right to question things in an educated, modern, society. Even being religious, one can practice a "living" religion, as opposed to one shut, closed, and static.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to God (in Islam), he wants adherents to be modest. That means to not stand out or stick out, be flashy or outlandish - both in clothing, and in lifestyle.

So the wealthy Arabs with the fancy cars, gaudy houses, but simple cotton garb? They're not modest.

Wearing niqab in most places? Not at ALL modest - you're completely drawing attention to yourself.

Hijab is becoming more commonplace, and I couldn't care less whether people wear it or not. But the hijabis with the high heals, leggings, and full face of makeup are comical.

In Islam, the goal is to not draw attention to yourself. The goal is NOT to cover up - but many Muslims themselves don't understand this distinction.

No, that's not the goal. Islam wants its adherents to be modest but not to avoid attention. It's to avoid attention for the wrong reasons. In a country where everyone wears a bikini day in and day out, Muslims are still required to cover, despite the fact that it will make them very obvious. One reason is to cover the parts that should be uncovered only to close family members. The other reason is to be known as Muslims. There is nothing in Islam to say that you should wear only the clothing that makes you unnoticeable.

Yes, that is the goal. There's a vast middle ground between wearing a bikini all day every day, and covering yourself from head to toe, all day every day.

What does it matter if a family member sees your hair? Do you think being family stops some people from molesting or raping family members? It does nothing. It's a symbolic excuse that does nothing.

The Quran says to cover your "ornaments" - so be simple and don't go around flashing your genitals to people. And yes, there are many verses in the Quran that suggest not being ostentatious (which does not mean covered up - it means 'don't stick out') in how you present yourself, while not hiding being a Muslim. The problem is many people interpret this into extremes (ie, your bikini example). There's a vast, completely healthy and faithful middle ground.

You misunderstood. Muslims are expected to be modest and not ostentatious, but the standard is not "so that you are not noticed." That is, if the dress code of the country where a Muslim happens to be is such that full coverage will draw attention - a lot of attention - the same rule of clothing still applies.

It doesn't matter if a family member sees your hair. It's a ritual, a symbol. Religions are full of them, that's the Muslim one.

Anonymous wrote:FYI there are some "modesty" recommendations for men in Islam, but they're not nearly as strict as some of the suggestions you see for women. Men are advised to cover always from the navel to the knee (so no short shorts). And covering more when praying. Also growing a beard, wearing a sort of cap. But those are more for "don't be afraid to show you're Muslim" rather than "would you want an opened package of man-oreos?" or to protect men from lustful women who just can't help themselves.

You forgot the ban on silk and gold.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to God (in Islam), he wants adherents to be modest. That means to not stand out or stick out, be flashy or outlandish - both in clothing, and in lifestyle.

So the wealthy Arabs with the fancy cars, gaudy houses, but simple cotton garb? They're not modest.

Wearing niqab in most places? Not at ALL modest - you're completely drawing attention to yourself.

Hijab is becoming more commonplace, and I couldn't care less whether people wear it or not. But the hijabis with the high heals, leggings, and full face of makeup are comical.

In Islam, the goal is to not draw attention to yourself. The goal is NOT to cover up - but many Muslims themselves don't understand this distinction.

No, that's not the goal. Islam wants its adherents to be modest but not to avoid attention. It's to avoid attention for the wrong reasons. In a country where everyone wears a bikini day in and day out, Muslims are still required to cover, despite the fact that it will make them very obvious. One reason is to cover the parts that should be uncovered only to close family members. The other reason is to be known as Muslims. There is nothing in Islam to say that you should wear only the clothing that makes you unnoticeable.

So who decided that your family should be the only people who see your calves and every wisp of your hair? What is the reasoning behind that, I guess is my question.

And why aren't men under such stringent conditions?

I guess my point of comparison is the Amish. The Amish dress differently and behave differently from the surrounding culture, but I think it just seems more equitable because the men are dressing in a way that appears to be just as strict as the women. And they're so plain, that's what modesty seems to be to me.

Muhammad decided. He had his reasons, I'm sure, but you don't want to know them, you want to argue with them and prove them wrong.

Men aren't under such stringent conditions because they aren't women.

But... what were the reasons? I mean, is that something that should not be discussed?

And should we really accept this: Men aren't under such stringent conditions because they aren't women.

We can use that line of thinking to put any restriction on women that you can imagine.

Women shouldn't vote- they're different than men, and their emotional pee-brains will make bad decisions!
Women shouldn't drive- what if they wander into a pimp's driveway- they're different!

If this thread is bothering you, and you don't want to respond to the questions presented, why respond at all? It's just an exercise in frustration for you.

It's important to me, as a woman, and as a feminist, that women be treated equally.

If there is an ideology that teaches that women are "less than" just because they are women, and under the thin veil of being women "precious," and "different" and "having their own special role" of course I will argue against that ideology, and fight against it, until the day I die.

It doesn't bother me, it amuses me. I really don't understand your position of "should we accept this". We? You and whose army? No one is asking you to accept it, or to approve of it, or do it, or really be anything in relation to it. You are asking about reasons pertaining to a group of people that are wholly alien to you. Your approval, or lack thereof, or indeed your desire to fight till the day you die, means nothing to the Muslim community. I honestly don't understand why you are bringing your personal feelings into it as if they matter to Muslims. They don't. If you fight and die tomorrow, it will make zero difference. Is it important to you as a woman and a feminist to treat women equally? Ok. Treat women equally. There is nothing you can do to force anyone else to become you.

FYI there are some "modesty" recommendations for men in Islam, but they're not nearly as strict as some of the suggestions you see for women. Men are advised to cover always from the navel to the knee (so no short shorts). And covering more when praying. Also growing a beard, wearing a sort of cap. But those are more for "don't be afraid to show you're Muslim" rather than "would you want an opened package of man-oreos?" or to protect men from lustful women who just can't help themselves.

Anonymous wrote:Europe has banned them as a sign of oppression

Name one European country that has banned them

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to God (in Islam), he wants adherents to be modest. That means to not stand out or stick out, be flashy or outlandish - both in clothing, and in lifestyle.

So the wealthy Arabs with the fancy cars, gaudy houses, but simple cotton garb? They're not modest.

Wearing niqab in most places? Not at ALL modest - you're completely drawing attention to yourself.

Hijab is becoming more commonplace, and I couldn't care less whether people wear it or not. But the hijabis with the high heals, leggings, and full face of makeup are comical.

In Islam, the goal is to not draw attention to yourself. The goal is NOT to cover up - but many Muslims themselves don't understand this distinction.

No, that's not the goal. Islam wants its adherents to be modest but not to avoid attention. It's to avoid attention for the wrong reasons. In a country where everyone wears a bikini day in and day out, Muslims are still required to cover, despite the fact that it will make them very obvious. One reason is to cover the parts that should be uncovered only to close family members. The other reason is to be known as Muslims. There is nothing in Islam to say that you should wear only the clothing that makes you unnoticeable.

Yes, that is the goal. There's a vast middle ground between wearing a bikini all day every day, and covering yourself from head to toe, all day every day.

What does it matter if a family member sees your hair? Do you think being family stops some people from molesting or raping family members? It does nothing. It's a symbolic excuse that does nothing.

The Quran says to cover your "ornaments" - so be simple and don't go around flashing your genitals to people. And yes, there are many verses in the Quran that suggest not being ostentatious (which does not mean covered up - it means 'don't stick out') in how you present yourself, while not hiding being a Muslim. The problem is many people interpret this into extremes (ie, your bikini example). There's a vast, completely healthy and faithful middle ground.

Thank you pp 20:01, that was a very interesting and informative response, unlike the angry person who is all "Reasons! You just want to argue!"

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to God (in Islam), he wants adherents to be modest. That means to not stand out or stick out, be flashy or outlandish - both in clothing, and in lifestyle.

So the wealthy Arabs with the fancy cars, gaudy houses, but simple cotton garb? They're not modest.

Wearing niqab in most places? Not at ALL modest - you're completely drawing attention to yourself.

Hijab is becoming more commonplace, and I couldn't care less whether people wear it or not. But the hijabis with the high heals, leggings, and full face of makeup are comical.

In Islam, the goal is to not draw attention to yourself. The goal is NOT to cover up - but many Muslims themselves don't understand this distinction.

I think the hijab draws a lot of attention towards the woman, especially when you live in a culture where women's hair is uncovered but you can still dress modestly (loose clothes, high necklines. Men in America are not lusting crazily over women's calves or hair.

On the contrary, when I was living in Egypt, I felt that men were staring at me, all the time, no matter what I was wearing. And I am pretty sure that hijab wearing women got the same treatment. The reason for this is that the men have internalized that women are objects, and they can do whatever they want to them, and it's the woman's fault for being sexually attractive to them. Coincidentally, this never happened to my mother, growing up in the 60s when most women did not wear hijab. These ideas are all connected- the idea that women (and ONLY women) must be "modest" or covered up, the idea that women are objects, and the idea that men are not responsible for their sexual feelings, women are. These are all connected.

PP, and I totally agree.

But there is a difference between what is meant by the religion (what I commented on), and what happens to be the case culturally speaking (what you posted) - it's been reinterpreted and redefined (by men who set the rules according to their own ideas). I'm not religious but I was raised Muslim - the whole modesty/hijab thing is something so many Muslims have just bastardized completely.

So when I see a woman wearing hijab here, it means nothing to me. It doesn't mean they're religious, or modest, or stupid, or whatever - it doesn't tell you a damn thing because the whole concept has just been bastardized to mean anything conclusive. It's nothing more than a cloth that a woman decided to cover he hair. Just like I'm wearing sewn cloth to cover my feet. It's a type of garment, and that's it.

PP, since you were raised Muslim, I hope you can answer some questions that I will try to pose as respectfully as I can.

Why are women in America wearing that thing?

I am so torn. I am firmly in the camp of "wear whatever the hell you want," but at the same time, I feel a tinge of panic when I see women in hijab frequently. I think it is because I have connected the proliferation of hijab to the constant sexual harassment I experienced in Egypt. I wonder how young Muslim men are growing up, when they see women covering up. Are they being taught that women should be covering up like candy (or freaking Oreos?)? Are they being taught that women are responsible for their sexual urges? Are they being taught that the woman they eventually marry is "theirs" which is why only he will see her hair, basically?

I had a period of super-piety when I was a teenager (when most women are deciding to wear the hijab). I sort of grew out of it and changed my mind about a lot of things, but I think I am a better, more open, more complete person as a result. But I wonder, if there was a physical manifestation of my religiosity, would it have been harder to discard? Would I have become more hardened, instead of a more open person? If I felt like people were constantly judging me and staring at me because of my religious beliefs, I probably would have clung to them more closely, which I think would have been a bad thing. There was no room for growth when I was that person. Sorry for the crazy rambling but I really am fascinated/horrified by where Islamic practice is today. It's like a car accident I can't stop staring at.

I've spent a lot of time around American Muslims of various backgrounds and origins (Arab/Middle Eastern, South Asian, Iranian, African, convert, etc), and though I am not at all religious now, am still friends (and related to) practicing Muslims. I truly think nothing of someone wearing a headscarf/hijab, and it tells me nothing about the person without talking to them and their individual experiences. I will say that the vast (vast!) majority of people who wear hijab in the US do so because of their sovereign, individual choice.

I've know Muslim women who cover their hair:
- because of family expectations
- because of cultural tradition
- as a "fuck you" feminist expression - kind of like how some women refuse to wear makeup. It's a "fuck you" to "the man" for feeling like they need to be pretty and have pretty hair
- because they're lazy and don't want to do their hair
- because they like the style/fashion challenge - some women are incredibly artful in their hijabs and hair covering
- because they think it'll help them catch a husband who wants a "good Muslim girl" (like many Christian and Jewish men want a "good Christian girl" or "good Jewish girl")
- because they think it gives off the impression of being pious, even though they're not. How many people do you know who wear crosses, but have done some pretty unethical things? For some, wearing a cross is a public facade. Ditto for some Muslim women.
- because they think it's "modest" under their personal interpretation
- all their friends are doing it, and they don't want to be left it. It can provide a social circle - a lot of people tend to dress like their friends, Muslim or not
- they feel like it re-connects them to their faith and sense of order to life's chaos - a sort of "born again" feeling of purpose
- lots, lots more

I have known Muslim women who fall into all of these categories (in the United States - abroad is very different and varies dramatically from place to place). Truly, when I see a woman wearing a head covering, it tells me nothing about them, because the internal reasons are far and wide. Many Muslim women will profess "it's for modesty" but when you're around this in community circles, you quickly see that there's so much more.

I will tell you that while raised in a practicing Muslim household, we were never ever pressured to cover our hair outside of religious activities. Most Muslim women will cover their hair when praying, going to a mosque, reading Quran, or participating in a religious activity. I did - we were told it was a way to humble yourself before God. But it was never suggested that we continue hair covering outside of religious activities.

Logically of course, that's bullshit. If God is everywhere, God sees you naked in the shower. But it doesn't matter, because God's not a sexual being. Why on earth would God care if you covered your hair when you prayed or went into a mosque?! What difference does it make?! However, lots of traditions still do this - many Catholic and Jewish women wear hair coverings at church & synagogue. Logic is not relevant to any religion.

Truly, when I see a woman with a hair covering, I don't feel like I can draw any conclusions whatsoever. Having been on the "inside" of this debate, I really see hijab as nothing more than a clothing accessory. I can make no other judgments about it and don't care one way or another. It's hair - people do all kinds of stuff to their hair anyway - who cares?

Niqab or face covering though, that is something else. That serves no purpose in any society on this planet. I would welcome any ban, in this country or any, on niqab - any Islamic justification for it is bullshit.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to God (in Islam), he wants adherents to be modest. That means to not stand out or stick out, be flashy or outlandish - both in clothing, and in lifestyle.

So the wealthy Arabs with the fancy cars, gaudy houses, but simple cotton garb? They're not modest.

Wearing niqab in most places? Not at ALL modest - you're completely drawing attention to yourself.

Hijab is becoming more commonplace, and I couldn't care less whether people wear it or not. But the hijabis with the high heals, leggings, and full face of makeup are comical.

In Islam, the goal is to not draw attention to yourself. The goal is NOT to cover up - but many Muslims themselves don't understand this distinction.

No, that's not the goal. Islam wants its adherents to be modest but not to avoid attention. It's to avoid attention for the wrong reasons. In a country where everyone wears a bikini day in and day out, Muslims are still required to cover, despite the fact that it will make them very obvious. One reason is to cover the parts that should be uncovered only to close family members. The other reason is to be known as Muslims. There is nothing in Islam to say that you should wear only the clothing that makes you unnoticeable.

So who decided that your family should be the only people who see your calves and every wisp of your hair? What is the reasoning behind that, I guess is my question.

And why aren't men under such stringent conditions?

I guess my point of comparison is the Amish. The Amish dress differently and behave differently from the surrounding culture, but I think it just seems more equitable because the men are dressing in a way that appears to be just as strict as the women. And they're so plain, that's what modesty seems to be to me.

Muhammad decided. He had his reasons, I'm sure, but you don't want to know them, you want to argue with them and prove them wrong.

Men aren't under such stringent conditions because they aren't women.

But... what were the reasons? I mean, is that something that should not be discussed?

And should we really accept this: Men aren't under such stringent conditions because they aren't women.

We can use that line of thinking to put any restriction on women that you can imagine.

Women shouldn't vote- they're different than men, and their emotional pee-brains will make bad decisions!
Women shouldn't drive- what if they wander into a pimp's driveway- they're different!

If this thread is bothering you, and you don't want to respond to the questions presented, why respond at all? It's just an exercise in frustration for you.

It's important to me, as a woman, and as a feminist, that women be treated equally.

If there is an ideology that teaches that women are "less than" just because they are women, and under the thin veil of being women "precious," and "different" and "having their own special role" of course I will argue against that ideology, and fight against it, until the day I die.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to God (in Islam), he wants adherents to be modest. That means to not stand out or stick out, be flashy or outlandish - both in clothing, and in lifestyle.

So the wealthy Arabs with the fancy cars, gaudy houses, but simple cotton garb? They're not modest.

Wearing niqab in most places? Not at ALL modest - you're completely drawing attention to yourself.

Hijab is becoming more commonplace, and I couldn't care less whether people wear it or not. But the hijabis with the high heals, leggings, and full face of makeup are comical.

In Islam, the goal is to not draw attention to yourself. The goal is NOT to cover up - but many Muslims themselves don't understand this distinction.

No, that's not the goal. Islam wants its adherents to be modest but not to avoid attention. It's to avoid attention for the wrong reasons. In a country where everyone wears a bikini day in and day out, Muslims are still required to cover, despite the fact that it will make them very obvious. One reason is to cover the parts that should be uncovered only to close family members. The other reason is to be known as Muslims. There is nothing in Islam to say that you should wear only the clothing that makes you unnoticeable.

So who decided that your family should be the only people who see your calves and every wisp of your hair? What is the reasoning behind that, I guess is my question.

And why aren't men under such stringent conditions?

I guess my point of comparison is the Amish. The Amish dress differently and behave differently from the surrounding culture, but I think it just seems more equitable because the men are dressing in a way that appears to be just as strict as the women. And they're so plain, that's what modesty seems to be to me.

Muhammad decided. He had his reasons, I'm sure, but you don't want to know them, you want to argue with them and prove them wrong.

Men aren't under such stringent conditions because they aren't women.

Anonymous wrote:
this. The pp's post almost makes me think that this is how all Muslim men view women. That we are simply somethings to be had, an object. We are similar to a food and if someone has had us before then we aren't worth anything. I can't imagine being part of a religion or culture that views women this way. It's just as bad as objectifying women for sex. It's pretty much the same thing. What's the different between a man who wants his wife covered up and a pervert predator who sexually assaults women? Pretty much nothing. They are both women who don't value women and see them as objects.

That's a special kind of stupid right there. Pretty much nothing? Yeah, well let's see. One has a preference for a woman that dresses super modestly. (You don't have to marry him, you know, he's not putting a gun to your head.) The other sexually assaults women and violates them. See the difference? You're such an overwrought drama queen. Right there with a poster fond of saying, "what should I tell my daughter when I see a woman in a hijab?" Dude, whatever the hell you want, no one cares.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:According to God (in Islam), he wants adherents to be modest. That means to not stand out or stick out, be flashy or outlandish - both in clothing, and in lifestyle.

So the wealthy Arabs with the fancy cars, gaudy houses, but simple cotton garb? They're not modest.

Wearing niqab in most places? Not at ALL modest - you're completely drawing attention to yourself.

Hijab is becoming more commonplace, and I couldn't care less whether people wear it or not. But the hijabis with the high heals, leggings, and full face of makeup are comical.

In Islam, the goal is to not draw attention to yourself. The goal is NOT to cover up - but many Muslims themselves don't understand this distinction.

No, that's not the goal. Islam wants its adherents to be modest but not to avoid attention. It's to avoid attention for the wrong reasons. In a country where everyone wears a bikini day in and day out, Muslims are still required to cover, despite the fact that it will make them very obvious. One reason is to cover the parts that should be uncovered only to close family members. The other reason is to be known as Muslims. There is nothing in Islam to say that you should wear only the clothing that makes you unnoticeable.

So who decided that your family should be the only people who see your calves and every wisp of your hair? What is the reasoning behind that, I guess is my question.

And why aren't men under such stringent conditions?

I guess my point of comparison is the Amish. The Amish dress differently and behave differently from the surrounding culture, but I think it just seems more equitable because the men are dressing in a way that appears to be just as strict as the women. And they're so plain, that's what modesty seems to be to me.