^And this guy probably didn't outright rape this girl because he didn't want to leave the DNA evidence behind.

His mugshot is finally out. No wonder he couldn't get anyone to have consensual sex.

Anonymous wrote:My biggest question is why a 19 year old was drinking at a fraternity party. He was clearly underage. The fraternity had an obligation to ensure he was not being served.

This is a tough one. The victim did make bad choices. There's no way around it, and I'm fairly certain she recognizes it, even if she can't say it aloud. What I'm struggling with is how do I approach this with my kids? Do I tell my teenage daughter, go ahead and drink until you're unconscious at a party? Yes, rape is a punishable crime, but do I really want to tell her that it doesn't matter if she's out of her mind drunk at a party with a whole bunch of equally drunk men? Of course it does!

I have explained to them that not only do I expect them not to drink underage, and I have made it very clear, especially to my college aged student, that a person who is drunk or high or otherwise incapacitated cannot consent to sexual contact, and is an automatic no go. I have stressed that I think drinking in a college environment is a bad idea even for people who are of age, because the social pressure to do so is irresponsibly intense. I have also stressed that I expect them to look out for any friend, male or female, who is obviously drunk and out of control.

I think this young man is very guilty. To do what he did to an unconscious, out of it girl was just plain wrong. Yes, you talk to your daughters about sticking with and leaving with friends at these parties. If you're going to drink at least know your tolerance level. But to a degree...you really do simply trust that other young people will not hurt you. It's that trust that makes something like this particularly awful...

This girl drank to the point of passing out behind a dumpster. That is pretty darned drunk and that is pretty darned bad and that was going to be BAD even if she had just woke up drunk and disoriented behind that dumpster. It was not up to this drunk young man to watch over her and get her to safety - that was her job. But of course this was not merely a matter of drinking too much and passing out. This young man had no right to sexually assault this young woman and in such a heartless way. Thankfully those Swedes came along, saw what was happening to this girl and tackled the assailant or who knows what may have happened to her. There is pretty much no question that this guy was doing something that he knew was WRONG, non-consenual and he was trying to get away when he realized that there were witnesses to the assault.

The assailant's father is doing his son no favors with this "20 minutes of action" crap - disgusting. The apple does not fall far from that tree that is for damn sure. Ugly entitlement at it's absolute worst.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The guy and the girl were both drunk off their asses. I feel sorry for both of them that they made such bad decisions.

The decision to get drunk is nowhere near the magnitude of the decision to rape someone. Many, MANY men get drunk and do not rape anyone.

And this is the huge problem with the way our society views drinking. It's given approval as acceptable, yet we never know for absolutely sure how our bodies will react. Many people can't make a rational decision while drunk. George Huguely is a similar example. It's beyond scary what CAN happen, and lives are ruined forever.

Agreed, Hughley also has SERIOUS anger issues

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing about the argument for telling women to be safer- We've always known that. My friends and I knew it when I was in my 20's, yet one got raped. We traveled in packs never left anyone behind, watched our drinks etc.. but it happened. It happened to my sister and my best friend from high school. I've always known the rules. Women are all drilled on the rules and yet rape continues. Maybe we aren't the problem.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting so drunk that someone else has to explain what happened to you should be a wake up call to this woman. She clearly has a drinking problem and needs to get a handle on it. Keeping your younger sister company at a frat party is just plain stupid. She clearly went through college and just can't let go or act her age. No, I'm not excusing his act of rape, but I do think that accountability has to be met by all parties involved. Women need to think about their actions,and anticipate possible outcomes, if they are to protect themselves.

Wow lots of assumptions there. I've gotten that drunk before (when in my 20s) and do not have a drinking problem. I've barely even had a drink since having kids in 2007. And what's wrong with going to a party with your sister??

She went to a party where she had multiple shots and had a history of blacking out while drinking. That's a drinking problem.

Absolutely no bearing on the fact that a man chose to rape her. Zero.

California has equated having sex with a drunk woman and having sex with an unconscious woman. It's true, had she been awake and drunk, and saying yes, he'd be just as much of a rapist. Does that make sense? (Getting blackout drunk and having sex go together. It's not uncommon.)

From the California penal code:

(3)?Where a person is prevented from resisting by any intoxicating or anesthetic substance, or any controlled substance, and this condition was known, or reasonably should have been known by the accused.

http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-261.html

It leaves things in a gray area, since it's based on exactly how drunk the person is whether they are prevented from resisting. But it's hard enough to prove a rape occurred, that I think the gray area in the law is necessary in order to ever convict. I'm not a lawyer, though, so it would be interesting if one could weigh in.

WHERE A PERSON IS PREVENTED FROM RESISTING.

WTF is "gray" about that?

Passers by could see that she was not resisting and she didn't wake up for another 3 hours.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't think this is the right place to talk about how women can be safer. I think it sends a really bad message to women (and men) when people respond this way.

This place? Do you mean this thread, or DCUM? Either way, were all too old to go to first to drink or hookup. I'm not sure who you're worried about, when you say really bad message. Our kids?

It sends a bad message to anyone who might be raped in the future—and it could absolutely still happen to you. And seeing how "society" reacts whenever a story like this comes out could make you less likely to report.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Getting so drunk that someone else has to explain what happened to you should be a wake up call to this woman. She clearly has a drinking problem and needs to get a handle on it. Keeping your younger sister company at a frat party is just plain stupid. She clearly went through college and just can't let go or act her age. No, I'm not excusing his act of rape, but I do think that accountability has to be met by all parties involved. Women need to think about their actions,and anticipate possible outcomes, if they are to protect themselves.

Wow lots of assumptions there. I've gotten that drunk before (when in my 20s) and do not have a drinking problem. I've barely even had a drink since having kids in 2007. And what's wrong with going to a party with your sister??

She went to a party where she had multiple shots and had a history of blacking out while drinking. That's a drinking problem.

Absolutely no bearing on the fact that a man chose to rape her. Zero.

California has equated having sex with a drunk woman and having sex with an unconscious woman. It's true, had she been awake and drunk, and saying yes, he'd be just as much of a rapist. Does that make sense? (Getting blackout drunk and having sex go together. It's not uncommon.)

From the California penal code:

(3)?Where a person is prevented from resisting by any intoxicating or anesthetic substance, or any controlled substance, and this condition was known, or reasonably should have been known by the accused.

http://codes.findlaw.com/ca/penal-code/pen-sect-261.html

It leaves things in a gray area, since it's based on exactly how drunk the person is whether they are prevented from resisting. But it's hard enough to prove a rape occurred, that I think the gray area in the law is necessary in order to ever convict. I'm not a lawyer, though, so it would be interesting if one could weigh in.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My biggest question is why a 19 year old was drinking at a fraternity party. He was clearly underage. The fraternity had an obligation to ensure he was not being served.

This is a tough one. The victim did make bad choices. There's no way around it, and I'm fairly certain she recognizes it, even if she can't say it aloud. What I'm struggling with is how do I approach this with my kids? Do I tell my teenage daughter, go ahead and drink until you're unconscious at a party? Yes, rape is a punishable crime, but do I really want to tell her that it doesn't matter if she's out of her mind drunk at a party with a whole bunch of equally drunk men? Of course it does!

I have explained to them that not only do I expect them not to drink underage, and I have made it very clear, especially to my college aged student, that a person who is drunk or high or otherwise incapacitated cannot consent to sexual contact, and is an automatic no go. I have stressed that I think drinking in a college environment is a bad idea even for people who are of age, because the social pressure to do so is irresponsibly intense. I have also stressed that I expect them to look out for any friend, male or female, who is obviously drunk and out of control.

That's your biggest question? Really?

No, not my biggest question. I'm sorry, stupid comment.

Anonymous wrote:My biggest question is why a 19 year old was drinking at a fraternity party. He was clearly underage. The fraternity had an obligation to ensure he was not being served.

This is a tough one. The victim did make bad choices. There's no way around it, and I'm fairly certain she recognizes it, even if she can't say it aloud. What I'm struggling with is how do I approach this with my kids? Do I tell my teenage daughter, go ahead and drink until you're unconscious at a party? Yes, rape is a punishable crime, but do I really want to tell her that it doesn't matter if she's out of her mind drunk at a party with a whole bunch of equally drunk men? Of course it does!

I have explained to them that not only do I expect them not to drink underage, and I have made it very clear, especially to my college aged student, that a person who is drunk or high or otherwise incapacitated cannot consent to sexual contact, and is an automatic no go. I have stressed that I think drinking in a college environment is a bad idea even for people who are of age, because the social pressure to do so is irresponsibly intense. I have also stressed that I expect them to look out for any friend, male or female, who is obviously drunk and out of control.

That's your biggest question? Really?

Okay, then several (many?) of you think it's victim blaming to teach the importance of safety precautions and want to talk away every attempt to explain why it's needed. As someone who works in a very large school system, I know the merits of our program. It's also taught by a number of women who have experienced violence, abuse, and rape. They think it's extremely important.

I'm the one who wrote "there would be no rapists if women took better care of themselves."

I agree that women and girls should be aware and learn to protect themselves. BUT - and it's such an important but - as one poster astutely pointed out, that should be a separate conversation. It's infuriating to read people continually dragging this case back to the realm of the victim's actions, forethought, intelligence, or preparation for the assault she endured.

I almost feel like the training and education your school system provides should include its own section on the assault of public opinion to prepare them for the additional trauma of reporting what happens. If a guy puts a knife to your throat and rips off your clothes, you might have a shot at getting justice. But if he waits until you're passed out...well, good luck with that.

My biggest question is why a 19 year old was drinking at a fraternity party. He was clearly underage. The fraternity had an obligation to ensure he was not being served.

This is a tough one. The victim did make bad choices. There's no way around it, and I'm fairly certain she recognizes it, even if she can't say it aloud. What I'm struggling with is how do I approach this with my kids? Do I tell my teenage daughter, go ahead and drink until you're unconscious at a party? Yes, rape is a punishable crime, but do I really want to tell her that it doesn't matter if she's out of her mind drunk at a party with a whole bunch of equally drunk men? Of course it does!

I have explained to them that not only do I expect them not to drink underage, and I have made it very clear, especially to my college aged student, that a person who is drunk or high or otherwise incapacitated cannot consent to sexual contact, and is an automatic no go. I have stressed that I think drinking in a college environment is a bad idea even for people who are of age, because the social pressure to do so is irresponsibly intense. I have also stressed that I expect them to look out for any friend, male or female, who is obviously drunk and out of control.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing about the argument for telling women to be safer- We've always known that. My friends and I knew it when I was in my 20's, yet one got raped. We traveled in packs never left anyone behind, watched our drinks etc.. but it happened. It happened to my sister and my best friend from high school. I've always known the rules. Women are all drilled on the rules and yet rape continues. Maybe we aren't the problem.

Turner had gone to two other girls and been refused. Emily Doe made out with him and left with him. If she had refused him, then he would have left her alone.

... And probably raped someone else. But go ahead and blame her, because kissing is totally consent to fuck an unconscious girl behind a dumpster.

Anonymous wrote:Here's the thing about the argument for telling women to be safer- We've always known that. My friends and I knew it when I was in my 20's, yet one got raped. We traveled in packs never left anyone behind, watched our drinks etc.. but it happened. It happened to my sister and my best friend from high school. I've always known the rules. Women are all drilled on the rules and yet rape continues. Maybe we aren't the problem.

Turner had gone to two other girls and been refused. Emily Doe made out with him and left with him. If she had refused him, then he would have left her alone.