Anonymous wrote:Bzzzz....I present to you Sahih (Sahih!) Muslim, Book 33, hadith 6395.


Abu Tufail reported: I visited Abu Sariha Hudhaifa b. Usaid al-Ghifari who said: I listened with these two ears of mine Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The semen stays in the womb for forty nights , then the angel, gives it a shape. Zubair said: I think that he said: One who fashions that and decides whether he would be male or female. Then he (the angel) says: Would his limbs be full or imperfect? And then the Lord makes thein full and perfect or otherwise as He desires. Then he says: My Lord, what about his livelihood, and his death and what about his disposition? And then the Lord decides about his misfortune and fortune.

Forty days? For realz?

PS: The forty days business is used in Judaism extensively. Hmmm...I wonders where that came from....Hmmm..

Dr. Moore answered this in his lecture.

I just can not argue with stupid anymore. Sorry. My 5th grader asks more insightful questions. You bring up the same point over and over again though every point has been addressed pages and pages ago. Get out of your granny robe, clean your dentures, put on a skirt and some makeup, and hang out at the bar to see if you can pick up a man for at least a one night stand. At least it'll keep you preoccupied.


Wow--what a brilliant rhetorical strategy. When you can't answer a question you accuse the questioner of being less intellectually developed than a ten year old and, in a deft switch, simultaneously accuse her of being a toothless yet lascivious senior citizen.

Anonymous wrote:

Are you just posing as a Muslim to generate opposition to Islam? Again, as said over and over again, the rules on inheritance are laid down in black and white in the Koran. This is a case where Sharia absolutely reflects the Koran. You have yet to deny this but avoid acknowledging it by repeatedly just responding that some things in Sharia aren't true Islam because they are not in the Koran.

Different PP here. This is actually very insightful! I wonder.... The sheer childishness of OP's taunts. The naive way she seems to think she can make overly-broad, sweeping statements about all of Islam, in the apparent hope that nobody will challenge her this time. The insecure references to obscure white guys she claims are experts in their fields.

The way she practically provokes people to repost statistics on immigration or those Quranic verses on concubines -- maybe that wasn't naive, maybe it was deliberate!

I wonder if this is really just some troll -- maybe that right wing Falls Church thrift store owner who posts a lot -- who is out to make Muslims and Islam look bad.

Are you just posing as a Muslim to generate opposition to Islam? Again, as said over and over again, the rules on inheritance are laid down in black and white in the Koran. This is a case where Sharia absolutely reflects the Koran. You have yet to deny this but avoid acknowledging it by repeatedly just responding that some things in Sharia aren't true Islam because they are not in the Koran.


She won't acknowledge it is from the Koran because she realizes the inheritance rules really wouldn't be accepted in modern Western nations and truly are disadvantageous to women in today's society (although not in seventh century Arabia--they were revolutionary for their time).

Some of the most oppressive stuff in Islam is ni hadith and sharia: Kudos to Sweetie for rejecting the things here that lead to perverse outcomes. Shows some independence of thought.

However, it backs her into a strategy of saying only the Koran may be relied upon and every word there is true and just. This is because she is not yet able to take the next logical step of saying the Koran is not the eternal word of God. If it is eternal it is good for all times and all places, so she'd have to defend inheritance laws that would make no sense in the US or the west more generally today.

The co-eternality of the Koran with God is not Koranic. It came later in Islamic theology for which the nature of the Koran was a hot topic of debate for centuries (much like the trinity was in Christianity--remember that?)

There are many Muslims that have come to her viewpoint with regard to hadith and sharia--Qaddafi's Little Green Book set forth the Koran as the only authority on Islam--but very few have had the intellectual courage to question the doctrine of co-eternality. But this is necessary for Islam to truly reform and become relevant to modern circumstances.

It would allow people to view parts of the Koran as speaking to the social circumstances of the day but not necessarily relevant to today and relegate things like the inequitable inheritance rules and the various stories in it of people like Jesus and Moses to the status of interesting remnants of a bygone age , much as Jews and Christians today view the most prescriptive parts of the Bible and look upon many of the stories therein as spiritual metaphors, not literal truth.

But Sweetie just isn't there yet. She expends her energy on trying to demonstrate the scientific accuracy of the Koran's words on embryology instead of questioning the co-eternality of the Koran.

Anonymous wrote:

Excuse me, was I talking to you? Are you the one with the martyr complex? Read through the posts before you reply. I was not speaking to you.

Here is the date and post stamp of my post to MUSLIMA, NOT YOU, in the thread, "Tell Me About Islam", in which I said why I believe Islamophobes are fearful of Muslims, followed by the actual post to her. This was a post directed specifically to Muslima. It was after I posted this directly to her that you and your islamophobes demanded cites and resources. But who was communicating with you? So frankly, I don't need to "have it out" with you or anyone else for that matter. I expressed to her my belief. But perhaps due to your martyr complex, you thought I was speaking personally to you...again.

Congratulations on your newfound acquired knowledge of Islam after having been impregnated by a Muslim man. Kudos.

Oh dear. When you post on DCUM, you are talking to EVERYONE. If you want to talk to Muslima, send her a private message. Glory be, she made it easy. Everything you say in the open is fair game to take apart.

Just to recap: your claim about "Islam grows by conversion not by immigration" is bunk. Just for any new readers. You made that up

Yep, impregnated and married, and when he dies, I'm getting 100%. Not the crumbs after his brothers pick over. One hundred percent. You are welcome.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

5) It demands we treat prisoners of war, captives, slaves well (even though no one hears about owning slaves anymore!)…

It's like that whole 20-page conversation about concubines--women captured in war, rape, whether they get freed if they become pregnant or on the death of the master--never happened. SMH.

Oh it happened alright. You just ignored the parts you didn't want to read.

Happy to help by recapping that discussion.

When Muslim soldiers capture a village,
- They may distribute the female prisoners of war as concubines among themselves (per the Quran).
- The women are raped. These new concubines have no choice about having sex with their new masters (who probably just killed their husbands or fathers).
- If the concubine becomes pregnant with her rapist's child, she is freed upon her master's death. (This point took many pages but, contrary to what Muslim PP argued, the BBC link she provided herself proved the concubine is not freed at pregnancy or at the birth of her child, but only if she outlives her master.)

Back it up with the Quran or bow out.

Since you asked. For those who don't know, "those whom your right hands possess" is a euphemism for "slave women." Additional Quranic verses support taking prisoners of war as slaves, and I can add those verses in a later post if you want me to.

Qur’an 33:50—O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee thy wives to whom thou hast paid their dowers; and those whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has assigned to thee . . .

Also,

Qur’an 4:24—Also (prohibited are) women already married, except those whom your right hands possess . . .

Qur’an 23:1-6—The Believers must (eventually) win through—those who humble themselves in their prayers; who avoid vain talk; who are active in deeds of charity; who abstain from sex; except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or (the captives) whom their right hands possess—for (in their case) they are free from blame.

Qur’an 70:22-30—Not so those devoted to Prayer—those who remain steadfast to their prayer; and those in whose wealth is a recognized right for the (needy) who asks and him who is prevented (for some reason from asking); and those who hold to the truth of the Day of Judgement; and those who fear the displeasure of their Lord—for their Lord’s displeasure is the opposite of Peace and Tranquility—and those who guard their chastity, except with their wives and the (captives) whom their right hands possess—for (then) they are not to be blamed.

(Editorial note. I can't believe you think your rhetorical strategies are working for you. Whenever you make something up, whenever you challenge someone to provide proof, you seem to be just crossing your fingers and hoping that nobody will call you out. But somebody always does call you out. Do you never learn?)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, besides inheritance one has to consider guardianship of minor children. Needless to say, only men can be guardians.

So for the seven-eighths of the estate going to the children (assuming one is male; otherwise it would be less), why is it just in today's world to a woman who maybe has an MBA or a law degree that she cannot serve as guardian for these funds, and instead has to suffer some male guardian with perhaps less education and perhaps less than honorable intentions?

Sorry Sweetie, no educated woman in America would find this a good or just deal.

You and your islamophobes do not. And frankly I do not like some Sharia rules either. We agree on that. But I know the Sharia does not always reflect the Quran. Thats what you fail to understand.

Are you just posing as a Muslim to generate opposition to Islam? Again, as said over and over again, the rules on inheritance are laid down in black and white in the Koran. This is a case where Sharia absolutely reflects the Koran. You have yet to deny this but avoid acknowledging it by repeatedly just responding that some things in Sharia aren't true Islam because they are not in the Koran.

Calling someone an Islamaphobe for describing something in Islam on which they comment "That wouldn't fly here" also smacks of a nonMuslim trying to gin up opposition to Islam. Particularly when it is someone who is pointing out something that would subordinate an educated woman to whatever idiot male relative was nearest--do you really believe that the only reason to attack that is Islamaphobia?

So I wonder who is the true Islamophobe here.

I believe that guardianship rules are not set out in the Koran the way inheritance rules are, but rather are a matter of Sharia. I can't be bothered to look it up to verify, though. Whatever--the guardianship rules are the law Arab women have to live under in their countries.

I just can not argue with stupid anymore. Sorry. My 5th grader asks more insightful questions. You bring up the same point over and over again though every point has been addressed pages and pages ago. Get out of your granny robe, clean your dentures, put on a skirt and some makeup, and hang out at the bar to see if you can pick up a man for at least a one night stand. At least it'll keep you preoccupied.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My above post actually answers both questions.

Dr. Moore doesn't speak Arabic. The Quranic verses dealing with "embryology" have been presented to him in translation, no doubt annotated to lead him to the water and make him drink.

There is no such thing as "female reproductive fluid". Nutfah doesn't say what it is mixed with. You still didn't address all the competing theories Quran puts forth (man is made from...clay? earth? water? dust? nothing?) . The female part, or the egg, is never mentioned in the Quran.

I'm going to get warmed up and post that ridiculous hadith about "male reproductive fluid is white, female reproductive fluid is yellow, whichever prevails, the child will be of that gender."

Quranic embryology: a tedious, awkward regurgitation of Galenic, Talmudic and Persian beliefs.

Have at it. Until you learn arabic you won't understand. And thats ok by me.

Have fun believing in a book that you have to be Arab to understand.

Anonymous wrote:Also, besides inheritance one has to consider guardianship of minor children. Needless to say, only men can be guardians.

So for the seven-eighths of the estate going to the children (assuming one is male; otherwise it would be less), why is it just in today's world to a woman who maybe has an MBA or a law degree that she cannot serve as guardian for these funds, and instead has to suffer some male guardian with perhaps less education and perhaps less than honorable intentions?

Sorry Sweetie, no educated woman in America would find this a good or just deal.

Within the Muslim community and Islamic traditions, conservatives and Islamic feminists have used Islamic doctrine as the basis for discussion of women's rights, drawing on the Quran, the hadith, and the lives of prominent women in the early period of Muslim history as evidence. Where conservatives have seen evidence that existing gender asymmetries are divinely ordained, feminists have seen more egalitarian ideals in early Islam. Still others have argued that this discourse is essentialist and historical, and have urged that Islamic doctrine not be the only framework within which discussion occurs.

In 1967, Iran adopted a set of progressive family laws, the Family Protection Act, which granted women more rights in the family; those rights were expanded in the Family Protection Law of 1975. Though the act was annulled in 1979 after the Islamic Revolution when Sharia law was re-introduced, the Family Protection Acts still stand out today for having been ahead of their time, particularly in a Muslim-majority country.

In September 1979, a modified version of the Family Protection Law's divorce provisions were introduced and adopted in Iran. The minimum age of marriage was moved from 9 to the onset of puberty. Child custody, no longer an inalienable right of fathers, is now up to the decision of Special Civil Courts. A 1992 law amended regulations on divorce, extending a wife’s access to divorce granting women more grounds for requesting a divorce.

In Islamic tradition, a women does not have to give her pre-marriage possessions to her husband and receives a dower which she then owns. Any earnings that a woman receives through employment or business, after marriage, is hers to keep and need not contribute towards family expenses. This is because, once the marriage is consummated, the financial responsibility for reasonable housing, food and other household expenses for the family, including the spouse, falls entirely on the husband. In traditional Islamic law, a woman is also not responsible for the upkeep of the home and may demand payment for any work she does in the domestic sphere.

I offer this information lest you forget Islami law is different from religion. The whole of the Muslim world does not live in Saudi Arabia. Muslims in the Middle East who are working to improve human rights and the laws they are governed by and should be supported. Denouncing the religion they want to keep is counterproductive to resolving the terrorist threat they live with. A threat the kills far more Muslims than any other ethnic/religions group.

PS: Muhammad lifted that from the Talmud, spinning it a little:

Jewish Talmud, Tractate Nidda 31a

"If a woman emits her semen first, she bears a male child, and if a man emits his semen first, she bears a female child."

The idea that a woman has "semen" : lifted completely from Galen.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My above post actually answers both questions.

Dr. Moore doesn't speak Arabic. The Quranic verses dealing with "embryology" have been presented to him in translation, no doubt annotated to lead him to the water and make him drink.

There is no such thing as "female reproductive fluid". Nutfah doesn't say what it is mixed with. You still didn't address all the competing theories Quran puts forth (man is made from...clay? earth? water? dust? nothing?) . The female part, or the egg, is never mentioned in the Quran.

I'm going to get warmed up and post that ridiculous hadith about "male reproductive fluid is white, female reproductive fluid is yellow, whichever prevails, the child will be of that gender."

Quranic embryology: a tedious, awkward regurgitation of Galenic, Talmudic and Persian beliefs.

Have at it. Until you learn arabic you won't understand. And thats ok by me.

Sahih Bukhari, 55:546

Volume 4, Book 55, Number 546:

Narrated Anas:

When 'Abdullah bin Salam heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said, "I am going to ask you about three things which nobody knows except a prophet: What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle" Allah's Apostle said, "Gabriel has just now told me of their answers." 'Abdullah said, "He (i.e. Gabriel), from amongst all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews." Allah's Apostle said, "The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring together the people from the east to the west; the first meal of the people of Paradise will be Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her." On that 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "I testify that you are the Apostle of Allah." 'Abdullah bin Salam further said, "O Allah's Apostle! The Jews are liars, and if they should come to know about my conversion to Islam before you ask them (about me), they would tell a lie about me." The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and 'Abdullah went inside the house. Allah's Apostle asked (the Jews), "What kind of man is 'Abdullah bin Salam amongst you?" They replied, "He is the most learned person amongst us, and the best amongst us, and the son of the best amongst us." Allah's Apostle said, "What do you think if he embraces Islam (will you do as he does)?" The Jews said, "May Allah save him from it." Then 'Abdullah bin Salam came out in front of them saying, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah." Thereupon they said, "He is the evilest among us, and the son of the evilest amongst us," and continued talking badly of him.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Also, besides inheritance one has to consider guardianship of minor children. Needless to say, only men can be guardians.

So for the seven-eighths of the estate going to the children (assuming one is male; otherwise it would be less), why is it just in today's world to a woman who maybe has an MBA or a law degree that she cannot serve as guardian for these funds, and instead has to suffer some male guardian with perhaps less education and perhaps less than honorable intentions?

Sorry Sweetie, no educated woman in America would find this a good or just deal.

You and your islamophobes do not. And frankly I do not like some Sharia rules either. We agree on that. But I know the Sharia does not always reflect the Quran. Thats what you fail to understand.

Are you just posing as a Muslim to generate opposition to Islam? Again, as said over and over again, the rules on inheritance are laid down in black and white in the Koran. This is a case where Sharia absolutely reflects the Koran. You have yet to deny this but avoid acknowledging it by repeatedly just responding that some things in Sharia aren't true Islam because they are not in the Koran.

Calling someone an Islamaphobe for describing something in Islam on which they comment "That wouldn't fly here" also smacks of a nonMuslim trying to gin up opposition to Islam. Particularly when it is someone who is pointing out something that would subordinate an educated woman to whatever idiot male relative was nearest--do you really believe that the only reason to attack that is Islamaphobia?

So I wonder who is the true Islamophobe here.

I believe that guardianship rules are not set out in the Koran the way inheritance rules are, but rather are a matter of Sharia. I can't be bothered to look it up to verify, though. Whatever--the guardianship rules are the law Arab women have to live under in their countries.

Bzzzz....I present to you Sahih (Sahih!) Muslim, Book 33, hadith 6395.


Abu Tufail reported: I visited Abu Sariha Hudhaifa b. Usaid al-Ghifari who said: I listened with these two ears of mine Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The semen stays in the womb for forty nights , then the angel, gives it a shape. Zubair said: I think that he said: One who fashions that and decides whether he would be male or female. Then he (the angel) says: Would his limbs be full or imperfect? And then the Lord makes thein full and perfect or otherwise as He desires. Then he says: My Lord, what about his livelihood, and his death and what about his disposition? And then the Lord decides about his misfortune and fortune.

Forty days? For realz?

PS: The forty days business is used in Judaism extensively. Hmmm...I wonders where that came from....Hmmm..

Anonymous wrote:My above post actually answers both questions.

Dr. Moore doesn't speak Arabic. The Quranic verses dealing with "embryology" have been presented to him in translation, no doubt annotated to lead him to the water and make him drink.

There is no such thing as "female reproductive fluid". Nutfah doesn't say what it is mixed with. You still didn't address all the competing theories Quran puts forth (man is made from...clay? earth? water? dust? nothing?) . The female part, or the egg, is never mentioned in the Quran.

I'm going to get warmed up and post that ridiculous hadith about "male reproductive fluid is white, female reproductive fluid is yellow, whichever prevails, the child will be of that gender."

Quranic embryology: a tedious, awkward regurgitation of Galenic, Talmudic and Persian beliefs.