OP (or other Jews), as a fellow Jew, I am curious -- would you ever want to move to Israel? I think about it sometimes around the holidays, when we are inundated with nonstop Christmas -- I think, wouldn't it be amazing to live in a country where Jews are the majority, and Christmas means nothing at all and isn't even marked. Wouldn't it be amazing to be normal or the default, and not "the other."

But then I realize I am too American because I believe very strongly in the separation of religion and state, and I wouldn't want the government deciding anything on the basis of religion, even if that religion is my own. Just wondered if other Jews felt similarly.

Anonymous wrote:NP Jew here. I wouldn't be offended by you using yellow for your cookies, but I would think it a little odd. I can think of at least three more likely colors/decor themes associated with "holiday, cookie, Jewish, 6-pointed star" and I would wonder why your mind didn't go there. Yeah stars give off light but the 6-pointed star is a geometric symbol, like the cross, not a representation of a specific celestial object like the Christmas 5-pointed star.

To be honest, if a coworker did something like that, I might let them know about it not because I am offended but because it makes very clear that their brain works in strange ways and is likely to make easily-misinterpreted choices. Someone who would think nothing of decorating Jewish stars yellow might also bring in crosses decorated in red and orange squiggles for MLK day. You know, because MLK was a preacher, and crosses are made of wood, and you didn't have brown. Your coworkers may be trying to save you from your own lack of consideration.

Hmm. I wouldn't have thought anything, other than "how thoughtful, I wonder how they taste." And then I would have eaten one to see. And I am Jewish. Like another PP said, to interpret yellow star cookies as relating to the Holocaust rather than just to baked goods, you either have to be incredibly sensitive or be thinking about the Holocaust all the time. Context is everything.

OP here. I haven't logged into this thread in a few days for lack of having my iPad at home. Hence, most of the posts since sunday are not me. Anyway, glad to see that the conversation is ongoing, even if frustrating.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP,

I used to make Xmas cookies and I would bring some to the office. I made stars and trees usually. The star cookie cutter I had was a 6 pointed star. I liked it b/c it was a little different than the usual 5 point star. Anyway, I sprinkled the trees with green sprinkles and the stars with yellow sprinkles b/c stars have yellow light -- right?. My closest friends at the office were all Jewish. I never thought that the yellow sprinkles on the 6 point stars might have a negative connection to the Holocaust, but I think someone (might not have been someone at work) told me that it was a bad idea and offensive.

Would you be offended by Christmas cookies that are 6 point stars with yellow sprinkles on white frosting? Am I so clueless that I'm anti-semetic by accident?

Oh boy! Yes, it would be weird to find yellow six point star cookies that someone had baked for an office party. But you have me cracking up.

It wasn't for an office party, I just made cookies to bring to the office to set out in the front area. As I think back on it, I think I also had red-sprinkled bell-shaped cookies along with the green trees and yellow stars. FWIW.

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Anonymous wrote:OP,

I used to make Xmas cookies and I would bring some to the office. I made stars and trees usually. The star cookie cutter I had was a 6 pointed star. I liked it b/c it was a little different than the usual 5 point star. Anyway, I sprinkled the trees with green sprinkles and the stars with yellow sprinkles b/c stars have yellow light -- right?. My closest friends at the office were all Jewish. I never thought that the yellow sprinkles on the 6 point stars might have a negative connection to the Holocaust, but I think someone (might not have been someone at work) told me that it was a bad idea and offensive.

Would you be offended by Christmas cookies that are 6 point stars with yellow sprinkles on white frosting? Am I so clueless that I'm anti-semetic by accident?

http://history1900s.about.com/od/holocaust/a/yellowstar.htm

Yes, PP I AM aware of the yellow star of David being used during WWII to identify the Jews. I was aware of that at the time I made the cookies. I just never connected making Christmas cookies in the shape of a star with the Holocaust b/c I don't think about the Holocaust much. I just looked at it as a star cookie and I sprinkled it yellow b/c stars are yellow. My question is not whether yellow six-pointed stars are connected to the Holocaust, but whether OP (or others) would have made that connection upon seeing a plate of cookies -- some of which were trees sprinkled in green -- and whether OP (or others) would take offense at seeing said cookies.

I wouldn't describe you as racist so much as clueless. Yeah, yellow is a pretty color, and the sun is a star, and it's yellow, and 6 point stars are a nice change from 5 points, but then the yellow six-point star was used to mark 6 million or so Jews for gassing and burning. So yeah, if you don't see how using yellow 6 point stars as pretty Christmas decorations is insensitive, you are pretty fucking clueless.

The six-pointed star is called the "Star of Creation" in Christianity and is associated with the six days of creation. It is often used in religious paintings of Jesus to signify his divinity as part of the Holy Trinity. The star that appeared over Bethlehem is also often depicted as a six-pointed star for this reason. Our Christmas tree at church is topped by a six-pointed yellow star. I imagine that this is the reason that the PP found a Christmas cookie cutter with six points. Symbols can mean different things to different people and in different contexts, so I don't think it is necessary to call the PP "pretty fucking stupid" for using a well-known symbol of Christmas to celebrate Christmas.

The swastika has a long history of benevolent usage as well, eg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swastika#Historical_use_in_the_East . It would be pretty fucking stupid to use a swastika and, again, if PP doesn't see why some Jews were offended by using the symbol used to mark Jews for extermination, she is pretty fucking clueless.

I really don't think comparison to the swastika is fair in this context since the swastika has been set aside by all cultures and religions because of its associations with Nazism. In contrast, the six-pointed star is still used by many cultures and religions, including most prominently Jews themselves, but also in Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism.

The swastika hasn't been set aside "by all cultures" - it's still used to signify Buddhist temples in loads of places I've been. (Thailand, for example.)

Anonymous wrote:This is kind of complicated. I'm a non-practicing Catholic. I found out recently that my paternal grandmother was born to two Jewish parents who came to America and concealed their identities as Jews. My paternal grandmother was not raised as a Jew, obviously, though both her parents had been raised as jews before they came to America.

Would you consider my dad jewish?

What about his sister's children?

Welcome to the tribe!

Technically, you are Jewish if your mother is, so yes, your father is Jewish based on that. However, if he had children with a non-Jewish woman than those children (you) would NOT be considered Jewish. Having said all THAT, if you decided to embrace your Jewish side and showed up at my temple (which is conservative), you would be welcomed, and I would totally share my bible with you.

Anonymous wrote:OP,

I used to make Xmas cookies and I would bring some to the office. I made stars and trees usually. The star cookie cutter I had was a 6 pointed star. I liked it b/c it was a little different than the usual 5 point star. Anyway, I sprinkled the trees with green sprinkles and the stars with yellow sprinkles b/c stars have yellow light -- right?. My closest friends at the office were all Jewish. I never thought that the yellow sprinkles on the 6 point stars might have a negative connection to the Holocaust, but I think someone (might not have been someone at work) told me that it was a bad idea and offensive.

Would you be offended by Christmas cookies that are 6 point stars with yellow sprinkles on white frosting? Am I so clueless that I'm anti-semetic by accident?

Oh boy! Yes, it would be weird to find yellow six point star cookies that someone had baked for an office party. But you have me cracking up.

Anonymous wrote:NP Jew here. I wouldn't be offended by you using yellow for your cookies, but I would think it a little odd. I can think of at least three more likely colors/decor themes associated with "holiday, cookie, Jewish, 6-pointed star" and I would wonder why your mind didn't go there. Yeah stars give off light but the 6-pointed star is a geometric symbol, like the cross, not a representation of a specific celestial object like the Christmas 5-pointed star.

To be honest, if a coworker did something like that, I might let them know about it not because I am offended but because it makes very clear that their brain works in strange ways and is likely to make easily-misinterpreted choices. Someone who would think nothing of decorating Jewish stars yellow might also bring in crosses decorated in red and orange squiggles for MLK day. You know, because MLK was a preacher, and crosses are made of wood, and you didn't have brown. Your coworkers may be trying to save you from your own lack of consideration.

Hunh? No idea what you're trying to say.

Anonymous wrote:I think this is a great thread. I am not Jewish and I'm definitely curious about Jewish people. Do you feel that anyone treats you differently for being jewish? I know many people in DC are Jewish but because antisemitism was prevalent in this country for so long, I just wondered if you ever feel like people react in an off way to you? I guess that is a weird question... What do you like about being Jewish? I envy your heritage and traditions. I have a feeling I am going to get burned for these questions, topics like this can be so sensitive but I will say upfront I am just curious, if I offended, it was unintentional. Thanks.

I'm a Jewish young adult, but I identify more as atheist/agnostic. I used to be very involved in the Jewish community, but not any more. A lot Jewish people in my generation come from wealthy families and are sort of spoiled and obnoxious. Education is highly valued in Jewish culture and I believe this is why you find a high proportion of Jewish professionals- doctors, lawyers, etc, and therefore well-off families. I was not raised in a wealthy household and my parents have not supported me financially since I left for college as a teenager. I consider my forced independence from a young age to be one of my defining characteristics, as I am hardworking, frugal, and down to earth. For these reasons, I generally do not find much in common with other Jewish young people. Even if my views on God and religion had not changed, the Jewish "scene" has soured for me.

I'm also the least Jewish "looking" person you could meet. Pale skin, light hair, light eyes. People are usually surprised to hear that I am (was?) Jewish. I generally self-identify as "non-religious" but consider myself ethnically/racially Jewish (if pressed). I've had a few weird encounters, although rarely do I hear people make anti-Semitic comments. Once a teenager (when I was working as a camp staffer) asked how I could possibly be Jewish, because didn't that Hitler guy kill the Jewish people? Once my boss apologized for a comment she had made about Christmas cookies or something several days before- she had thought it over and was concerned that it might have been offensive. I didn't remember the comment! Of course, it was kind of her to be so considerate anyhow.

Anonymous wrote:And apparently men still fuck around as a matter of course (note the posts by our resident Portnoy).

Didn't Portnoy refer to shtupping in college? Given the average age on this board, that would be 20 or 30 years ago, no?

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Anonymous wrote:Wow! Is this really what you think of Jews? That they all get plastic surgery because they think they look ethnic? I can guaranty you that there are more non-Jews who get plastic surgery because hey hate the way they look. Jews do not claim to be superior. Christians do. If Jews continue to diversify--marry out of their religion-- there won't be many Jews left in this world. Jews are very accepting of other races, religions and cultures. Always have been and always will be. Jews played a huge role in the civil rights movement, for example. I grew up as a Jew among a neighborhood of Catholics, who referred to me as "you people." I don't have a particular desire to hang out with people who refer to me and others in my religion as "you people." Perhaps this question about diversifying should be asked of Christians and Catholics.

You realize that Jews do not have the market cornered on this phenomenon, right. In fact, it has been commented on in th emain stream press that Blonde hair (real, not bleached) will likely become exceedingly rare and almost extinct within a few generations if the marriage trends continue as they are. Does that mean no non-blonde should be allowed to marry a real blonde?

Of course not because that would be labled a racist and elitist policy. So why is it any different for Jews?

Second pont: the Jews decided that only those children born to Jewish WOMEN are hereditarily Jewish. So, change the rule. Then you wont have to worry so much.

The rule was changed. It used to be patrilineal descent.

Since the Jews accepted the laws of the torah, the rule has always been matrilineal decent. If you are referring to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as the time of patrilineal decent, althought they are considered the forefathers of the Jewish nation, the Jews did not actually become a nation until they received the Torah at Mt. Sinai, so their situation does not dictate how the religion defines Jews.

According to traditional Jewish law, a Jew is someone who is born to a Jewish mother or who converts through the proper methods. Recently, Reform (and maybe Reconstructionist?) Judaism has permitted patrilineal descent as a valid manner of defining a Jew.

The matrilineal descent thing was about making sure at least one parent was Jewish. If Dad said it was his kid, you could never be sure. If Mom said so, it was a gimme. There's nothing mystical about mom v. dad in Jewish tradition. It was just practical in an era when (1) descent really mattered, (2) men fucked around as a matter of course, and (3) paternity testing was rather primitive.

Be that as it may, matrilineal descent is still traditional Jewish law.

The Torah also prescribes stoning for disobedient children.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I know a number of women in this area who only hang out with other Jewish women, frown upon Jews who marry non- Jews (even if those marriages are happier than their own), make borderline rude comments to non-Jewish people often - yet, these women do not regularly attend temple. Short version - it's cultural but they hide it behind religion since they aren't even religious! In any other culture they'd be considered racist against those who are different from them and their "circle." Thoughts on that? Have you seen it?

But non Jews never make comments. Never call someone a Jew if they're cheap, never criticize people for not putting out Christmas trees.......I'm not saying some Jews aren't assholes, I'm saying some people are assholes and you can't blame religion.

This answer doesn't make sense. Are you the OP?

The point is - it's like they get so much "club pride" out of being Jewish, yet they aren't even religious. It's like they've missed the whole point on which their snobbery is based.

Not OP here. It's very interesting to me that you have observed these interactions. I have to say, I have felt very left out by Christian women. I feel like Christian women look at me like I am some foreign creature because they know I am Jewish. I find that Christian women, not all, do the very thing you accuse Jewish women of doing. One thing to consider, that I have come across, is that some of these friendships that have formed among Jewish women, happened because these women's children attended the same Jewish nursery school. Tight bonds are formed among parents at nursery schools that continue for a lifetime. I tend to gravitate towards Jews because they know where I am coming from. They aren't going to say things to me like, "Wow. You don't look Jewish." Or "why are Jews so cheap?" Or " You talk like a Jew."

This has got to be a DC thing. I am in Chicago and my best friend is Jewish (I am Catholic). Actually, many of my friends are Jewish and while some of them are friends from Hebrew school or JCC summer camp, we all get along the same. Heck, I went to most of their bat and bar mitzvahs, and spent many Passovers and Hanukkahs at their homes. The only time it gets hairy is when my non-Jewish girlfriends date Jewish men, their mothers and sisters freak out.

Thank you, thank you. Jewish mother: 1, Portnoy... well, still 1000, since he benefits from all the privilege afforded to a white man in America in spite of his need to shtup shiksas for reassurance.

Anonymous wrote:And apparently men still fuck around as a matter of course (note the posts by our resident Portnoy).

Good one!

And apparently men still fuck around as a matter of course (note the posts by our resident Portnoy).