Anonymous wrote:”Scholars who spend their lives in the sources already have a credible answer, and I’m okay resting there.”

That’s like comic book experts who’ve spent their lives analyzing comic books to decide if Superman was real.



“a question that already has a professional answer.”

Maybe comic book experts aren’t the best professionals to answer this question given their bias and limited outside, independent resources.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re-upping to see if our historicity defender will actually come back and engage in a real discussion and not cower away in other threads and make claims without the full context of the arguments.

If you think your position is true, why be afraid to engage?

Write a scholarly paper if you think the mainstream view of secular historians is wrong.

Which “secular historians”? Are you the PP who doesn’t know what secular means?

No, it's the PP who knows when the person who's responding to them is trying to be insulting.

So which “secular historians”?

The overwhelming consensus among professional historians, biblical scholars, and experts in ancient history is that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure—a 1st-century Jewish preacher from Galilee who was baptized by John the Baptist and crucified under Pontius Pilate.     

This view is held by scholars across the spectrum, including Christians, atheists, agnostics, Jews, and others, based on evidence from early Christian texts (like Paul’s letters, which reference Jesus as a human who had a brother and was executed), the Gospels (treated as biographical traditions with historical cores), and non-Christian sources like the Jewish historian Josephus and the Roman historian Tacitus.  

The idea that Jesus was entirely mythical (known as the “Christ myth theory” or Jesus mythicism) is a fringe position, rejected as pseudoscholarship or methodologically flawed by virtually all experts in the field for over a century—it has no traction in peer-reviewed journals, academic handbooks, or mainstream historical discourse.   

There are a small handful of individuals with academic credentials in relevant fields (such as ancient history, biblical studies, or religious studies) who argue against Jesus’ historicity or express strong agnosticism about it. These are outliers, often criticized by peers for relying on arguments from silence, selective interpretations of sources, superficial parallels to pagan myths (e.g., Horus or Mithras), and outdated methodologies that don’t align with standard historical criteria like multiple attestation or embarrassment.

Many mythicists lack institutional affiliations or come from outside core disciplines like classics or New Testament studies, and their work is often self-published or appears in non-academic venues. Even proponents like Richard Carrier (a mythicist himself) acknowledge that only a tiny fraction of qualified scholars hold this view, estimating around a dozen who outright doubt historicity or are agnostic, with others merely saying it’s “plausible” to debate but not endorsing it.

Richard Carrier (PhD in ancient history from Columbia University): An independent scholar and full mythicist who argues Jesus was a celestial being mythologized into a historical figure, using Bayesian probability to claim a low likelihood of historicity. His work, like On the Historicity of Jesus (2014), has undergone peer review but is widely dismissed by mainstream scholars call his work deeply flawed. Richard is a professional historian by training, but his mythicist stance is considered fringe.

Robert M. Price (PhDs in systematic theology and New Testament from Drew University): A former Baptist pastor and independent scholar who views Jesus as a composite of myths and archetypes, with the Gospels as allegorical fiction. Books like The Christ-Myth Theory and Its Problems (2011) promote this, but peers regard it as outside scholarly norms. He qualifies as a professional in biblical studies, though his views are not taken seriously in academia.

Thomas L. Thompson (PhD in biblical studies from the University of Tübingen; professor emeritus at the University of Copenhagen): A biblical minimalist who expresses agnosticism or skepticism, arguing Jesus (like David) draws from Near Eastern myths without warrant for historicity. Works like The Messiah Myth (2005) support this, but he’s more focused on Old Testament and doesn’t fully deny a possible historical kernel.    He is a respected professional in his field, but his Jesus-related skepticism is fringe.

Raphael Lataster (PhD in religious studies from the University of Sydney): An independent scholar and lecturer who leans mythicist or agnostic, claiming evidence for historicity is probabilistically weak. His Questioning the Historicity of Jesus (2019) is peer-reviewed, but critics see it as unconvincing. He has professional credentials, but his position remains marginal.

Thomas Brodie (PhD in biblical studies from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas; retired Dominican priest and scholar): Argues the Gospels are fictional rewritings of Old Testament stories, with Jesus as a composite myth. His memoir Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus (2012) outlines this, but it’s not widely accepted. He is a professional biblical scholar, though his mythicist turn is atypical.

George A. Wells (philosophy background, deceased; later softened to agnosticism) or Earl Doherty (no relevant PhD), lack strong credentials in ancient history or are amateurs.   

In short, yes, these individuals are “truly professionals” in the sense of having advanced degrees and some publishing history in related fields, but their mythicist views are not credible to the broader academic community—often likened to flat-earth theories or young-earth creationism in terms of evidential support.

Emphasis here: you are welcome to your own research and opinion on this topic or any topic, but you should also recognize your view is not accepted by professional historians/academics/scholars without belittling/disparaging/attacking them as unprofessional or ignorant.

You don’t have their education or expertise and can’t read the sources in the original language as they can. We all have opinions and a right to express them, but the Christ myth is considered extremely fringe.

Most people look to experts that are accredited and respected in every field, and stating anonymous that you are equal to these experts is delusional. That being said, no one here has to prove this to you, it’s already accepted. If you choose not to accept it, that’s your pov.

No one is trying to change anyone’s mind about this subject, but it’s always pertinent and responsible to know what experts think and why they think that, and compare their findings with other experts. These experts agree that Christ walked the earth.

You could enter academia and scholarship and gain credibility and credentials so you could enter the ring (where it counts) and change the overwhelming majority position about Jesus historicity. If I felt as strongly about it as many here do, I wouldn’t waste my time arguing with strangers on the internet. Use your knowledge and become a scholar or professor and show the world the truth as you interpret it, get peer reviewed, learn those languages first though.

That didn’t answer my question.

Which “secular” historians are 100% sure about historical Jesus?

Hint: if they are a biblical “scholar” they aren’t secular.

“100% sure” is a fake standard

No ancient figure meets it.

If you insist on 100%, you must also deny Socrates and Alexander the Great

Historians don’t operate that way.

Biblical scholar doesn’t mean religious. “Biblical studies” is a textual-historical field, like classics. Many scholars in it do not believe the Bible is inspired.

Excluding them is like saying:
“Classicists can’t study Caesar because they read Latin texts about him.”

At some point, rejecting every qualified expert just becomes a philosophical choice, not a historical argument.

So how certain are they then? 99%? 80% “absolutely certain”? “Most likely”?

Someone who has spent their entire life studying the Bible is not an independent, secular historian.

How certain are the independent, secular historians?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re-upping to see if our historicity defender will actually come back and engage in a real discussion and not cower away in other threads and make claims without the full context of the arguments.

If you think your position is true, why be afraid to engage?

Write a scholarly paper if you think the mainstream view of secular historians is wrong.

Which “secular historians”? Are you the PP who doesn’t know what secular means?

No, it's the PP who knows when the person who's responding to them is trying to be insulting.

So which “secular historians”?

The overwhelming consensus among professional historians, biblical scholars, and experts in ancient history is that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure—a 1st-century Jewish preacher from Galilee who was baptized by John the Baptist and crucified under Pontius Pilate.     

This view is held by scholars across the spectrum, including Christians, atheists, agnostics, Jews, and others, based on evidence from early Christian texts (like Paul’s letters, which reference Jesus as a human who had a brother and was executed), the Gospels (treated as biographical traditions with historical cores), and non-Christian sources like the Jewish historian Josephus and the Roman historian Tacitus.  

The idea that Jesus was entirely mythical (known as the “Christ myth theory” or Jesus mythicism) is a fringe position, rejected as pseudoscholarship or methodologically flawed by virtually all experts in the field for over a century—it has no traction in peer-reviewed journals, academic handbooks, or mainstream historical discourse.   

There are a small handful of individuals with academic credentials in relevant fields (such as ancient history, biblical studies, or religious studies) who argue against Jesus’ historicity or express strong agnosticism about it. These are outliers, often criticized by peers for relying on arguments from silence, selective interpretations of sources, superficial parallels to pagan myths (e.g., Horus or Mithras), and outdated methodologies that don’t align with standard historical criteria like multiple attestation or embarrassment.

Many mythicists lack institutional affiliations or come from outside core disciplines like classics or New Testament studies, and their work is often self-published or appears in non-academic venues. Even proponents like Richard Carrier (a mythicist himself) acknowledge that only a tiny fraction of qualified scholars hold this view, estimating around a dozen who outright doubt historicity or are agnostic, with others merely saying it’s “plausible” to debate but not endorsing it.

Richard Carrier (PhD in ancient history from Columbia University): An independent scholar and full mythicist who argues Jesus was a celestial being mythologized into a historical figure, using Bayesian probability to claim a low likelihood of historicity. His work, like On the Historicity of Jesus (2014), has undergone peer review but is widely dismissed by mainstream scholars call his work deeply flawed. Richard is a professional historian by training, but his mythicist stance is considered fringe.

Robert M. Price (PhDs in systematic theology and New Testament from Drew University): A former Baptist pastor and independent scholar who views Jesus as a composite of myths and archetypes, with the Gospels as allegorical fiction. Books like The Christ-Myth Theory and Its Problems (2011) promote this, but peers regard it as outside scholarly norms. He qualifies as a professional in biblical studies, though his views are not taken seriously in academia.

Thomas L. Thompson (PhD in biblical studies from the University of Tübingen; professor emeritus at the University of Copenhagen): A biblical minimalist who expresses agnosticism or skepticism, arguing Jesus (like David) draws from Near Eastern myths without warrant for historicity. Works like The Messiah Myth (2005) support this, but he’s more focused on Old Testament and doesn’t fully deny a possible historical kernel.    He is a respected professional in his field, but his Jesus-related skepticism is fringe.

Raphael Lataster (PhD in religious studies from the University of Sydney): An independent scholar and lecturer who leans mythicist or agnostic, claiming evidence for historicity is probabilistically weak. His Questioning the Historicity of Jesus (2019) is peer-reviewed, but critics see it as unconvincing. He has professional credentials, but his position remains marginal.

Thomas Brodie (PhD in biblical studies from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas; retired Dominican priest and scholar): Argues the Gospels are fictional rewritings of Old Testament stories, with Jesus as a composite myth. His memoir Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus (2012) outlines this, but it’s not widely accepted. He is a professional biblical scholar, though his mythicist turn is atypical.

George A. Wells (philosophy background, deceased; later softened to agnosticism) or Earl Doherty (no relevant PhD), lack strong credentials in ancient history or are amateurs.   

In short, yes, these individuals are “truly professionals” in the sense of having advanced degrees and some publishing history in related fields, but their mythicist views are not credible to the broader academic community—often likened to flat-earth theories or young-earth creationism in terms of evidential support.

Emphasis here: you are welcome to your own research and opinion on this topic or any topic, but you should also recognize your view is not accepted by professional historians/academics/scholars without belittling/disparaging/attacking them as unprofessional or ignorant.

You don’t have their education or expertise and can’t read the sources in the original language as they can. We all have opinions and a right to express them, but the Christ myth is considered extremely fringe.

Most people look to experts that are accredited and respected in every field, and stating anonymous that you are equal to these experts is delusional. That being said, no one here has to prove this to you, it’s already accepted. If you choose not to accept it, that’s your pov.

No one is trying to change anyone’s mind about this subject, but it’s always pertinent and responsible to know what experts think and why they think that, and compare their findings with other experts. These experts agree that Christ walked the earth.

You could enter academia and scholarship and gain credibility and credentials so you could enter the ring (where it counts) and change the overwhelming majority position about Jesus historicity. If I felt as strongly about it as many here do, I wouldn’t waste my time arguing with strangers on the internet. Use your knowledge and become a scholar or professor and show the world the truth as you interpret it, get peer reviewed, learn those languages first though.

That didn’t answer my question.

Which “secular” historians are 100% sure about historical Jesus?

Hint: if they are a biblical “scholar” they aren’t secular.

“100% sure” is a fake standard

No ancient figure meets it.

If you insist on 100%, you must also deny Socrates and Alexander the Great

Historians don’t operate that way.

Biblical scholar doesn’t mean religious. “Biblical studies” is a textual-historical field, like classics. Many scholars in it do not believe the Bible is inspired.

Excluding them is like saying:
“Classicists can’t study Caesar because they read Latin texts about him.”

At some point, rejecting every qualified expert just becomes a philosophical choice, not a historical argument.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re-upping to see if our historicity defender will actually come back and engage in a real discussion and not cower away in other threads and make claims without the full context of the arguments.

If you think your position is true, why be afraid to engage?

Write a scholarly paper if you think the mainstream view of secular historians is wrong.

Which “secular historians”? Are you the PP who doesn’t know what secular means?

No, it's the PP who knows when the person who's responding to them is trying to be insulting.

So which “secular historians”?

The overwhelming consensus among professional historians, biblical scholars, and experts in ancient history is that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure—a 1st-century Jewish preacher from Galilee who was baptized by John the Baptist and crucified under Pontius Pilate.     

This view is held by scholars across the spectrum, including Christians, atheists, agnostics, Jews, and others, based on evidence from early Christian texts (like Paul’s letters, which reference Jesus as a human who had a brother and was executed), the Gospels (treated as biographical traditions with historical cores), and non-Christian sources like the Jewish historian Josephus and the Roman historian Tacitus.  

The idea that Jesus was entirely mythical (known as the “Christ myth theory” or Jesus mythicism) is a fringe position, rejected as pseudoscholarship or methodologically flawed by virtually all experts in the field for over a century—it has no traction in peer-reviewed journals, academic handbooks, or mainstream historical discourse.   

There are a small handful of individuals with academic credentials in relevant fields (such as ancient history, biblical studies, or religious studies) who argue against Jesus’ historicity or express strong agnosticism about it. These are outliers, often criticized by peers for relying on arguments from silence, selective interpretations of sources, superficial parallels to pagan myths (e.g., Horus or Mithras), and outdated methodologies that don’t align with standard historical criteria like multiple attestation or embarrassment.

Many mythicists lack institutional affiliations or come from outside core disciplines like classics or New Testament studies, and their work is often self-published or appears in non-academic venues. Even proponents like Richard Carrier (a mythicist himself) acknowledge that only a tiny fraction of qualified scholars hold this view, estimating around a dozen who outright doubt historicity or are agnostic, with others merely saying it’s “plausible” to debate but not endorsing it.

Richard Carrier (PhD in ancient history from Columbia University): An independent scholar and full mythicist who argues Jesus was a celestial being mythologized into a historical figure, using Bayesian probability to claim a low likelihood of historicity. His work, like On the Historicity of Jesus (2014), has undergone peer review but is widely dismissed by mainstream scholars call his work deeply flawed. Richard is a professional historian by training, but his mythicist stance is considered fringe.

Robert M. Price (PhDs in systematic theology and New Testament from Drew University): A former Baptist pastor and independent scholar who views Jesus as a composite of myths and archetypes, with the Gospels as allegorical fiction. Books like The Christ-Myth Theory and Its Problems (2011) promote this, but peers regard it as outside scholarly norms. He qualifies as a professional in biblical studies, though his views are not taken seriously in academia.

Thomas L. Thompson (PhD in biblical studies from the University of Tübingen; professor emeritus at the University of Copenhagen): A biblical minimalist who expresses agnosticism or skepticism, arguing Jesus (like David) draws from Near Eastern myths without warrant for historicity. Works like The Messiah Myth (2005) support this, but he’s more focused on Old Testament and doesn’t fully deny a possible historical kernel.    He is a respected professional in his field, but his Jesus-related skepticism is fringe.

Raphael Lataster (PhD in religious studies from the University of Sydney): An independent scholar and lecturer who leans mythicist or agnostic, claiming evidence for historicity is probabilistically weak. His Questioning the Historicity of Jesus (2019) is peer-reviewed, but critics see it as unconvincing. He has professional credentials, but his position remains marginal.

Thomas Brodie (PhD in biblical studies from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas; retired Dominican priest and scholar): Argues the Gospels are fictional rewritings of Old Testament stories, with Jesus as a composite myth. His memoir Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus (2012) outlines this, but it’s not widely accepted. He is a professional biblical scholar, though his mythicist turn is atypical.

George A. Wells (philosophy background, deceased; later softened to agnosticism) or Earl Doherty (no relevant PhD), lack strong credentials in ancient history or are amateurs.   

In short, yes, these individuals are “truly professionals” in the sense of having advanced degrees and some publishing history in related fields, but their mythicist views are not credible to the broader academic community—often likened to flat-earth theories or young-earth creationism in terms of evidential support.

Emphasis here: you are welcome to your own research and opinion on this topic or any topic, but you should also recognize your view is not accepted by professional historians/academics/scholars without belittling/disparaging/attacking them as unprofessional or ignorant.

You don’t have their education or expertise and can’t read the sources in the original language as they can. We all have opinions and a right to express them, but the Christ myth is considered extremely fringe.

Most people look to experts that are accredited and respected in every field, and stating anonymous that you are equal to these experts is delusional. That being said, no one here has to prove this to you, it’s already accepted. If you choose not to accept it, that’s your pov.

No one is trying to change anyone’s mind about this subject, but it’s always pertinent and responsible to know what experts think and why they think that, and compare their findings with other experts. These experts agree that Christ walked the earth.

You could enter academia and scholarship and gain credibility and credentials so you could enter the ring (where it counts) and change the overwhelming majority position about Jesus historicity. If I felt as strongly about it as many here do, I wouldn’t waste my time arguing with strangers on the internet. Use your knowledge and become a scholar or professor and show the world the truth as you interpret it, get peer reviewed, learn those languages first though.

That didn’t answer my question.

Which “secular” historians are 100% sure about historical Jesus?

Hint: if they are a biblical “scholar” they aren’t secular.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So where did the religion come from. A bunch of people started writing stories about stuff supposedly happening in the past and they all collaborated on common themes?
How did they decide on what those were, making it all up from scratch?
And being willing to die for it to lend credence? Props to them.

The same way stories were written about Zeus and Thor. Jesus just had a VERY good marketing team. With all of the research into the development of Christianity, this is the conclusion I have come to. And because of the power of indoctrination, it really isn't hard to start that ball rolling in the right direction. One generation of people being "forced" or coerced in some way to teach/believe the doctrine is all it takes to change history and end up where we are today...with so many people completely convinced that this is all real.

Peter
Crucified in Rome around 66 AD under Nero. Tradition claims he requested upside-down crucifixion, feeling unworthy to die like Jesus.

James (son of Zebedee)
First apostle martyred; beheaded by King Herod in Jerusalem (Acts 12).

John
Only apostle not martyred. Suffered persecution but died naturally in old age while ministering around Ephesus (modern Turkey).

Andrew
Preached in regions now Russia, Ukraine, Turkey, and Greece. Martyred in Greece.

Philip
Ministered in North Africa and Asia Minor. Martyred (method disputed) after a Roman official’s wife converted through his preaching. Possible recent tomb discovery.

Bartholomew (Nathanael)
Traveled widely (possibly India, Armenia, Ethiopia region). Martyred, though details uncertain.

Matthew (Levi)
Former tax collector; preached in Iran and Ethiopia. Likely stabbed to death in Africa.

Thomas
Overcame initial doubt; preached in Syria, Iraq, and India (founder of Marthoma tradition). Stabbed by soldiers in India.

James (son of Alphaeus)
Possibly Matthew’s brother. Preached north of Israel; stoned and clubbed to death (per historical account). Also called James the Less/Younger.

Simon the Zealot
Details unclear due to competing traditions. Majority view: sawn in half in Persia.

Philip (distinct from the earlier Philip)
Preached in Phrygia (central Turkey); martyred in Hierapolis.

Judas Thaddaeus (Jude)
Known by multiple names (Thaddaeus, Judas brother of James). Preached in northern Syria, Iraq, and Turkey. Killed with arrows.

Matthias (replacement for Judas Iscariot)
Preached northward, possibly to Caspian Sea region. Martyred (method unclear).

Paul (not one of the original 12, but key apostle)
Endured beatings, stoning, shipwrecks, and imprisonment. Beheaded in Rome around 66 AD, possibly same time as Peter.

Peter Parker
Bitten by radioactive spider, sacrificed the life of his gentle uncle Ben

Bruce Banner
Pelted by gamma rays, turned into the hulk

Benjamin Grimm
Also pelted by gamma rays, turned into hideous beast

Bruce Wayne
Parents martyred, girlfriend martyred

I know you think I am being glib, but on paper and objectively they are the same thing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re-upping to see if our historicity defender will actually come back and engage in a real discussion and not cower away in other threads and make claims without the full context of the arguments.

If you think your position is true, why be afraid to engage?

Write a scholarly paper if you think the mainstream view of secular historians is wrong.

Which “secular historians”? Are you the PP who doesn’t know what secular means?

No, it's the PP who knows when the person who's responding to them is trying to be insulting.

So which “secular historians”?

The overwhelming consensus among professional historians, biblical scholars, and experts in ancient history is that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure—a 1st-century Jewish preacher from Galilee who was baptized by John the Baptist and crucified under Pontius Pilate.     

This view is held by scholars across the spectrum, including Christians, atheists, agnostics, Jews, and others, based on evidence from early Christian texts (like Paul’s letters, which reference Jesus as a human who had a brother and was executed), the Gospels (treated as biographical traditions with historical cores), and non-Christian sources like the Jewish historian Josephus and the Roman historian Tacitus.  

The idea that Jesus was entirely mythical (known as the “Christ myth theory” or Jesus mythicism) is a fringe position, rejected as pseudoscholarship or methodologically flawed by virtually all experts in the field for over a century—it has no traction in peer-reviewed journals, academic handbooks, or mainstream historical discourse.   

There are a small handful of individuals with academic credentials in relevant fields (such as ancient history, biblical studies, or religious studies) who argue against Jesus’ historicity or express strong agnosticism about it. These are outliers, often criticized by peers for relying on arguments from silence, selective interpretations of sources, superficial parallels to pagan myths (e.g., Horus or Mithras), and outdated methodologies that don’t align with standard historical criteria like multiple attestation or embarrassment.

Many mythicists lack institutional affiliations or come from outside core disciplines like classics or New Testament studies, and their work is often self-published or appears in non-academic venues. Even proponents like Richard Carrier (a mythicist himself) acknowledge that only a tiny fraction of qualified scholars hold this view, estimating around a dozen who outright doubt historicity or are agnostic, with others merely saying it’s “plausible” to debate but not endorsing it.

Richard Carrier (PhD in ancient history from Columbia University): An independent scholar and full mythicist who argues Jesus was a celestial being mythologized into a historical figure, using Bayesian probability to claim a low likelihood of historicity. His work, like On the Historicity of Jesus (2014), has undergone peer review but is widely dismissed by mainstream scholars call his work deeply flawed. Richard is a professional historian by training, but his mythicist stance is considered fringe.

Robert M. Price (PhDs in systematic theology and New Testament from Drew University): A former Baptist pastor and independent scholar who views Jesus as a composite of myths and archetypes, with the Gospels as allegorical fiction. Books like The Christ-Myth Theory and Its Problems (2011) promote this, but peers regard it as outside scholarly norms. He qualifies as a professional in biblical studies, though his views are not taken seriously in academia.

Thomas L. Thompson (PhD in biblical studies from the University of Tübingen; professor emeritus at the University of Copenhagen): A biblical minimalist who expresses agnosticism or skepticism, arguing Jesus (like David) draws from Near Eastern myths without warrant for historicity. Works like The Messiah Myth (2005) support this, but he’s more focused on Old Testament and doesn’t fully deny a possible historical kernel.    He is a respected professional in his field, but his Jesus-related skepticism is fringe.

Raphael Lataster (PhD in religious studies from the University of Sydney): An independent scholar and lecturer who leans mythicist or agnostic, claiming evidence for historicity is probabilistically weak. His Questioning the Historicity of Jesus (2019) is peer-reviewed, but critics see it as unconvincing. He has professional credentials, but his position remains marginal.

Thomas Brodie (PhD in biblical studies from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas; retired Dominican priest and scholar): Argues the Gospels are fictional rewritings of Old Testament stories, with Jesus as a composite myth. His memoir Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus (2012) outlines this, but it’s not widely accepted. He is a professional biblical scholar, though his mythicist turn is atypical.

George A. Wells (philosophy background, deceased; later softened to agnosticism) or Earl Doherty (no relevant PhD), lack strong credentials in ancient history or are amateurs.   

In short, yes, these individuals are “truly professionals” in the sense of having advanced degrees and some publishing history in related fields, but their mythicist views are not credible to the broader academic community—often likened to flat-earth theories or young-earth creationism in terms of evidential support.

Emphasis here: you are welcome to your own research and opinion on this topic or any topic, but you should also recognize your view is not accepted by professional historians/academics/scholars without belittling/disparaging/attacking them as unprofessional or ignorant.

You don’t have their education or expertise and can’t read the sources in the original language as they can. We all have opinions and a right to express them, but the Christ myth is considered extremely fringe.

Most people look to experts that are accredited and respected in every field, and stating anonymous that you are equal to these experts is delusional. That being said, no one here has to prove this to you, it’s already accepted. If you choose not to accept it, that’s your pov.

No one is trying to change anyone’s mind about this subject, but it’s always pertinent and responsible to know what experts think and why they think that, and compare their findings with other experts. These experts agree that Christ walked the earth.

You could enter academia and scholarship and gain credibility and credentials so you could enter the ring (where it counts) and change the overwhelming majority position about Jesus historicity. If I felt as strongly about it as many here do, I wouldn’t waste my time arguing with strangers on the internet. Use your knowledge and become a scholar or professor and show the world the truth as you interpret it, get peer reviewed, learn those languages first though.

You are back to the same basic arguments as previously of appeal to authority without directly addressing any of the specific points and counter claims being made.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So where did the religion come from. A bunch of people started writing stories about stuff supposedly happening in the past and they all collaborated on common themes?
How did they decide on what those were, making it all up from scratch?
And being willing to die for it to lend credence? Props to them.

The same way stories were written about Zeus and Thor. Jesus just had a VERY good marketing team. With all of the research into the development of Christianity, this is the conclusion I have come to. And because of the power of indoctrination, it really isn't hard to start that ball rolling in the right direction. One generation of people being "forced" or coerced in some way to teach/believe the doctrine is all it takes to change history and end up where we are today...with so many people completely convinced that this is all real.

Peter
Crucified in Rome around 66 AD under Nero. Tradition claims he requested upside-down crucifixion, feeling unworthy to die like Jesus.

James (son of Zebedee)
First apostle martyred; beheaded by King Herod in Jerusalem (Acts 12).

John
Only apostle not martyred. Suffered persecution but died naturally in old age while ministering around Ephesus (modern Turkey).

Andrew
Preached in regions now Russia, Ukraine, Turkey, and Greece. Martyred in Greece.

Philip
Ministered in North Africa and Asia Minor. Martyred (method disputed) after a Roman official’s wife converted through his preaching. Possible recent tomb discovery.

Bartholomew (Nathanael)
Traveled widely (possibly India, Armenia, Ethiopia region). Martyred, though details uncertain.

Matthew (Levi)
Former tax collector; preached in Iran and Ethiopia. Likely stabbed to death in Africa.

Thomas
Overcame initial doubt; preached in Syria, Iraq, and India (founder of Marthoma tradition). Stabbed by soldiers in India.

James (son of Alphaeus)
Possibly Matthew’s brother. Preached north of Israel; stoned and clubbed to death (per historical account). Also called James the Less/Younger.

Simon the Zealot
Details unclear due to competing traditions. Majority view: sawn in half in Persia.

Philip (distinct from the earlier Philip)
Preached in Phrygia (central Turkey); martyred in Hierapolis.

Judas Thaddaeus (Jude)
Known by multiple names (Thaddaeus, Judas brother of James). Preached in northern Syria, Iraq, and Turkey. Killed with arrows.

Matthias (replacement for Judas Iscariot)
Preached northward, possibly to Caspian Sea region. Martyred (method unclear).

Paul (not one of the original 12, but key apostle)
Endured beatings, stoning, shipwrecks, and imprisonment. Beheaded in Rome around 66 AD, possibly same time as Peter.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re-upping to see if our historicity defender will actually come back and engage in a real discussion and not cower away in other threads and make claims without the full context of the arguments.

If you think your position is true, why be afraid to engage?

Write a scholarly paper if you think the mainstream view of secular historians is wrong.

Which “secular historians”? Are you the PP who doesn’t know what secular means?

No, it's the PP who knows when the person who's responding to them is trying to be insulting.

So which “secular historians”?

The overwhelming consensus among professional historians, biblical scholars, and experts in ancient history is that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure—a 1st-century Jewish preacher from Galilee who was baptized by John the Baptist and crucified under Pontius Pilate.     

This view is held by scholars across the spectrum, including Christians, atheists, agnostics, Jews, and others, based on evidence from early Christian texts (like Paul’s letters, which reference Jesus as a human who had a brother and was executed), the Gospels (treated as biographical traditions with historical cores), and non-Christian sources like the Jewish historian Josephus and the Roman historian Tacitus.  

The idea that Jesus was entirely mythical (known as the “Christ myth theory” or Jesus mythicism) is a fringe position, rejected as pseudoscholarship or methodologically flawed by virtually all experts in the field for over a century—it has no traction in peer-reviewed journals, academic handbooks, or mainstream historical discourse.   

There are a small handful of individuals with academic credentials in relevant fields (such as ancient history, biblical studies, or religious studies) who argue against Jesus’ historicity or express strong agnosticism about it. These are outliers, often criticized by peers for relying on arguments from silence, selective interpretations of sources, superficial parallels to pagan myths (e.g., Horus or Mithras), and outdated methodologies that don’t align with standard historical criteria like multiple attestation or embarrassment.

Many mythicists lack institutional affiliations or come from outside core disciplines like classics or New Testament studies, and their work is often self-published or appears in non-academic venues. Even proponents like Richard Carrier (a mythicist himself) acknowledge that only a tiny fraction of qualified scholars hold this view, estimating around a dozen who outright doubt historicity or are agnostic, with others merely saying it’s “plausible” to debate but not endorsing it.

Richard Carrier (PhD in ancient history from Columbia University): An independent scholar and full mythicist who argues Jesus was a celestial being mythologized into a historical figure, using Bayesian probability to claim a low likelihood of historicity. His work, like On the Historicity of Jesus (2014), has undergone peer review but is widely dismissed by mainstream scholars call his work deeply flawed. Richard is a professional historian by training, but his mythicist stance is considered fringe.

Robert M. Price (PhDs in systematic theology and New Testament from Drew University): A former Baptist pastor and independent scholar who views Jesus as a composite of myths and archetypes, with the Gospels as allegorical fiction. Books like The Christ-Myth Theory and Its Problems (2011) promote this, but peers regard it as outside scholarly norms. He qualifies as a professional in biblical studies, though his views are not taken seriously in academia.

Thomas L. Thompson (PhD in biblical studies from the University of Tübingen; professor emeritus at the University of Copenhagen): A biblical minimalist who expresses agnosticism or skepticism, arguing Jesus (like David) draws from Near Eastern myths without warrant for historicity. Works like The Messiah Myth (2005) support this, but he’s more focused on Old Testament and doesn’t fully deny a possible historical kernel.    He is a respected professional in his field, but his Jesus-related skepticism is fringe.

Raphael Lataster (PhD in religious studies from the University of Sydney): An independent scholar and lecturer who leans mythicist or agnostic, claiming evidence for historicity is probabilistically weak. His Questioning the Historicity of Jesus (2019) is peer-reviewed, but critics see it as unconvincing. He has professional credentials, but his position remains marginal.

Thomas Brodie (PhD in biblical studies from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas; retired Dominican priest and scholar): Argues the Gospels are fictional rewritings of Old Testament stories, with Jesus as a composite myth. His memoir Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus (2012) outlines this, but it’s not widely accepted. He is a professional biblical scholar, though his mythicist turn is atypical.

George A. Wells (philosophy background, deceased; later softened to agnosticism) or Earl Doherty (no relevant PhD), lack strong credentials in ancient history or are amateurs.   

In short, yes, these individuals are “truly professionals” in the sense of having advanced degrees and some publishing history in related fields, but their mythicist views are not credible to the broader academic community—often likened to flat-earth theories or young-earth creationism in terms of evidential support.

Emphasis here: you are welcome to your own research and opinion on this topic or any topic, but you should also recognize your view is not accepted by professional historians/academics/scholars without belittling/disparaging/attacking them as unprofessional or ignorant.

You don’t have their education or expertise and can’t read the sources in the original language as they can. We all have opinions and a right to express them, but the Christ myth is considered extremely fringe.

Most people look to experts that are accredited and respected in every field, and stating anonymous that you are equal to these experts is delusional. That being said, no one here has to prove this to you, it’s already accepted. If you choose not to accept it, that’s your pov.

No one is trying to change anyone’s mind about this subject, but it’s always pertinent and responsible to know what experts think and why they think that, and compare their findings with other experts. These experts agree that Christ walked the earth.

You could enter academia and scholarship and gain credibility and credentials so you could enter the ring (where it counts) and change the overwhelming majority position about Jesus historicity. If I felt as strongly about it as many here do, I wouldn’t waste my time arguing with strangers on the internet. Use your knowledge and become a scholar or professor and show the world the truth as you interpret it, get peer reviewed, learn those languages first though.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re-upping to see if our historicity defender will actually come back and engage in a real discussion and not cower away in other threads and make claims without the full context of the arguments.

If you think your position is true, why be afraid to engage?

Write a scholarly paper if you think the mainstream view of secular historians is wrong.

Which “secular historians”? Are you the PP who doesn’t know what secular means?

No, it's the PP who knows when the person who's responding to them is trying to be insulting.

So which “secular historians”?

The overwhelming consensus among professional historians, biblical scholars, and experts in ancient history is that Jesus of Nazareth was a real historical figure—a 1st-century Jewish preacher from Galilee who was baptized by John the Baptist and crucified under Pontius Pilate.     

This view is held by scholars across the spectrum, including Christians, atheists, agnostics, Jews, and others, based on evidence from early Christian texts (like Paul’s letters, which reference Jesus as a human who had a brother and was executed), the Gospels (treated as biographical traditions with historical cores), and non-Christian sources like the Jewish historian Josephus and the Roman historian Tacitus.  

The idea that Jesus was entirely mythical (known as the “Christ myth theory” or Jesus mythicism) is a fringe position, rejected as pseudoscholarship or methodologically flawed by virtually all experts in the field for over a century—it has no traction in peer-reviewed journals, academic handbooks, or mainstream historical discourse.   

There are a small handful of individuals with academic credentials in relevant fields (such as ancient history, biblical studies, or religious studies) who argue against Jesus’ historicity or express strong agnosticism about it. These are outliers, often criticized by peers for relying on arguments from silence, selective interpretations of sources, superficial parallels to pagan myths (e.g., Horus or Mithras), and outdated methodologies that don’t align with standard historical criteria like multiple attestation or embarrassment.

Many mythicists lack institutional affiliations or come from outside core disciplines like classics or New Testament studies, and their work is often self-published or appears in non-academic venues. Even proponents like Richard Carrier (a mythicist himself) acknowledge that only a tiny fraction of qualified scholars hold this view, estimating around a dozen who outright doubt historicity or are agnostic, with others merely saying it’s “plausible” to debate but not endorsing it.

Richard Carrier (PhD in ancient history from Columbia University): An independent scholar and full mythicist who argues Jesus was a celestial being mythologized into a historical figure, using Bayesian probability to claim a low likelihood of historicity. His work, like On the Historicity of Jesus (2014), has undergone peer review but is widely dismissed by mainstream scholars call his work deeply flawed. Richard is a professional historian by training, but his mythicist stance is considered fringe.

Robert M. Price (PhDs in systematic theology and New Testament from Drew University): A former Baptist pastor and independent scholar who views Jesus as a composite of myths and archetypes, with the Gospels as allegorical fiction. Books like The Christ-Myth Theory and Its Problems (2011) promote this, but peers regard it as outside scholarly norms. He qualifies as a professional in biblical studies, though his views are not taken seriously in academia.

Thomas L. Thompson (PhD in biblical studies from the University of Tübingen; professor emeritus at the University of Copenhagen): A biblical minimalist who expresses agnosticism or skepticism, arguing Jesus (like David) draws from Near Eastern myths without warrant for historicity. Works like The Messiah Myth (2005) support this, but he’s more focused on Old Testament and doesn’t fully deny a possible historical kernel.    He is a respected professional in his field, but his Jesus-related skepticism is fringe.

Raphael Lataster (PhD in religious studies from the University of Sydney): An independent scholar and lecturer who leans mythicist or agnostic, claiming evidence for historicity is probabilistically weak. His Questioning the Historicity of Jesus (2019) is peer-reviewed, but critics see it as unconvincing. He has professional credentials, but his position remains marginal.

Thomas Brodie (PhD in biblical studies from the Pontifical University of St. Thomas Aquinas; retired Dominican priest and scholar): Argues the Gospels are fictional rewritings of Old Testament stories, with Jesus as a composite myth. His memoir Beyond the Quest for the Historical Jesus (2012) outlines this, but it’s not widely accepted. He is a professional biblical scholar, though his mythicist turn is atypical.

George A. Wells (philosophy background, deceased; later softened to agnosticism) or Earl Doherty (no relevant PhD), lack strong credentials in ancient history or are amateurs.   

In short, yes, these individuals are “truly professionals” in the sense of having advanced degrees and some publishing history in related fields, but their mythicist views are not credible to the broader academic community—often likened to flat-earth theories or young-earth creationism in terms of evidential support.

Emphasis here: you are welcome to your own research and opinion on this topic or any topic, but you should also recognize your view is not accepted by professional historians/academics/scholars without belittling/disparaging/attacking them as unprofessional or ignorant.

You don’t have their education or expertise and can’t read the sources in the original language as they can. We all have opinions and a right to express them, but the Christ myth is considered extremely fringe.

Most people look to experts that are accredited and respected in every field, and stating anonymous that you are equal to these experts is delusional. That being said, no one here has to prove this to you, it’s already accepted. If you choose not to accept it, that’s your pov.

No one is trying to change anyone’s mind about this subject, but it’s always pertinent and responsible to know what experts think and why they think that, and compare their findings with other experts. These experts agree that Christ walked the earth.

You could enter academia and scholarship and gain credibility and credentials so you could enter the ring (where it counts) and change the overwhelming majority position about Jesus historicity. If I felt as strongly about it as many here do, I wouldn’t waste my time arguing with strangers on the internet. Use your knowledge and become a scholar or professor and show the world the truth as you interpret it, get peer reviewed, learn those languages first though.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re-upping to see if our historicity defender will actually come back and engage in a real discussion and not cower away in other threads and make claims without the full context of the arguments.

If you think your position is true, why be afraid to engage?

Write a scholarly paper if you think the mainstream view of secular historians is wrong.

Which “secular historians”? Are you the PP who doesn’t know what secular means?

No, it's the PP who knows when the person who's responding to them is trying to be insulting.

So which “secular historians”?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Re-upping to see if our historicity defender will actually come back and engage in a real discussion and not cower away in other threads and make claims without the full context of the arguments.

If you think your position is true, why be afraid to engage?

Write a scholarly paper if you think the mainstream view of secular historians is wrong.

Which “secular historians”? Are you the PP who doesn’t know what secular means?

No, it's the PP who knows when the person who's responding to them is trying to be insulting.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So where did the religion come from. A bunch of people started writing stories about stuff supposedly happening in the past and they all collaborated on common themes?
How did they decide on what those were, making it all up from scratch?
And being willing to die for it to lend credence? Props to them.

The same way stories were written about Zeus and Thor. Jesus just had a VERY good marketing team. With all of the research into the development of Christianity, this is the conclusion I have come to. And because of the power of indoctrination, it really isn't hard to start that ball rolling in the right direction. One generation of people being "forced" or coerced in some way to teach/believe the doctrine is all it takes to change history and end up where we are today...with so many people completely convinced that this is all real.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So where did the religion come from. A bunch of people started writing stories about stuff supposedly happening in the past and they all collaborated on common themes?
How did they decide on what those were, making it all up from scratch?
And being willing to die for it to lend credence? Props to them.

The same way stories were written about Zeus and Thor. Jesus just had a VERY good marketing team. With all of the research into the development of Christianity, this is the conclusion I have come to. And because of the power of indoctrination, it really isn't hard to start that ball rolling in the right direction. One generation of people being "forced" or coerced in some way to teach/believe the doctrine is all it takes to change history and end up where we are today...with so many people completely convinced that this is all real.