Anonymous wrote:Y'all are just so short-sighted and weird. Your goal is to send your kids as far away as possible for college just to save some money, and down the road you'll never even see them. Have a lonely old age face timing with your grandkids who you'll barely know.

Anonymous wrote:The kids from other countries clamor to come to the USA and attend colleges there. There is a reason. The universities and colleges are top-rate in the USA. This isn’t about price.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Abroad for school is looking less crazy every day!

Right, but you have to get in. Some of the programs, like my kids' at Oxford, are merit-based entirely, no holistic, DEI, URM, first-generation stuff like here. it was very difficult for him to get through the application, the prep for the interview, the interview (substantive in his field), the required APs at 5. You have to know what you are getting into. Other schools are less demanding. We ended up hiring a consultant because it was over our heads.

Anonymous wrote:Abroad for school is looking less crazy every day!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is Swiss. He could not get in ETH, therefore he applied to us schools and is now at Stanford. ETH was his number 1 choice.

Let me get this straight...he couldn't get acceptance to a 27% acceptance rate school...and for some reason he was not interested in Cambridge or Oxford or other strong STEM schools...but he was accepted to Stanford.

You do have to speak German.

First of all, 27% acceptance rate is an overall acceptance rate. HE applied to Computer Science. And I konw you have little attitude, but let me put this way. ETH gets the top of the top. My Son scored 1600 in the easy SAT in one sitting. Scored 5’s on every AP test he took (he went to a boarding school here in Switzerland without AP courses). He is fluent in 5 languages. American tests are ridiculously easy for the best Swiss kids.

So please, get off you American high horse. Your HS system is pitiful and a complete disaster. Don’t come in here pretending you know it all. Because you clearly do not.

So...once more...what you are saying makes no sense. You essentially are admitting one of two things: (i) that your kid completely f**ked up the application, or (ii) ETH employs an even more nutso holistic admissions process than US schools (even though they claim to not do that).

There is no high horse, but simply poking holes in your fabricated story.

It's interesting though that you decided to attend Stanford considering our HS system is "pitiful and a complete disaster" which doesn't really have anything to do with anything...considering this entire thread is about US kids successfully applying and gaining acceptance to some of the top European universities.

Anonymous wrote:Abroad for school is looking less crazy every day!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey everyone,
Following up on the conversations I see around here and other places about why more US students are looking at universities overseas. I've been going down the rabbit hole on this with my husband and my kids. My son is a Junior and daughter a Freshman. Thye have both brought up the possibility of maybe going abroad for college. My husband went to grad school in the UK and Italy so he is all for it. I’m not yet sold on it.

While it's tempting to focus on the positives, I think it's smarter to start with the real-world downsides. The biggest one for me is the career question. Let's be honest, if you go to Oxford, Cambridge, or LSE, your degree will open doors anywhere. But what if you go to a really solid, but less famous, university in the UK, Netherlands, Italy or Canada? How do grads from those schools do when they try to find a job back in the States? I worry that a hiring manager in, say, Chicago might just toss a resume because they don't recognize the school's name.

You're also thousands of miles away from US-based career fairs and the alumni network that helps people land their first job. A college consultant who specializes in EU/Canadian and UK schools actually told us that outside of Oxbridge and LSE/Imperial, we should focus only on the top 12 schools in the UK or the top 3 in each of the other EU countries. Her reasoning was that all US grad schools and the vast majority of top US companies know these specific schools, even if the general public doesn't. She said the real issue is with local or regional employers who won't recognize the name. But her point was, if your goal is to work for a local company back home, then why go abroad in the first place?

Beyond that, you're obviously giving up the traditional "American college experience." The whole campus life, dorm culture, college sports, and clubs are just a different world over there. And we can't ignore the personal side. It's a huge move. You have to deal with visa paperwork, international banking, and the very real possibility of getting homesick and not having your support system a quick flight away. It’s a serious trade-off that goes way beyond academics. This mom is a little concerned.

Now with the scary stuff out of the way, the pros are still massive. The most obvious is the cost, which is just staggering. We're talking about the potential to get a degree for a price that's less than a single year at some private US colleges. The math is pretty compelling: with many EU public universities having tuition at a fraction of US schools, the savings are life-changing. Specially if you are able to invest that savings on behalf of your kids for when they graduate. But beyond the practical stuff, I realize there's the huge benefit of actually living in a different culture for three or four years. I have to imagine that navigating a new country, becoming more independent, and seeing the world from a completely different perspective forces you to grow as an individual in a way that staying in the US just can't replicate. For kids with an interest in global business, History, Languages or international relations, this experience seems like a no-brainer. You'd be living and breathing cross-cultural communication and could potentially pick up another language, skills that can really set you apart.

But the last piece of the puzzle I was curious about was the return plan. It seems like coming back to the US for a graduate degree is a well-worn path. US Master's programs and even J.D. programs are very used to seeing applicants with international degrees. I wonder how many kids simply stay in Canada/EU/UK after graduation. Would love to hear from parents here who have had this experience before with their kids.

Sorry for the long post.

OP, my son went to Exeter undergrad for Applied Finance in the apprenticeship program with JP Morgan in London. He was in the 2nd cohort of the program. He worked at JP Morgan in London for 3 years. He is now back in the US getting his MBA at a Top 5 program.

This is pretty cool. Where can i find more info about this apprenticeship program?

You can find more info here: https://www.exeter.ac.uk/study/degreeapprenticeships/programmes/financialservices/

It is a great niche program. My son had a blast. It worked real well for him. He was basically done with Level 1 CFA by the time he graduated and finished it in his 2nd yr at JP Morgan in London. Great experience that set up him well to come back to the US to a top MBA program.

Anonymous[b wrote:]State flagship?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Let’s hope the USA never becomes THIS dependent on international students.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2024-08-27/australias-international-student-industry-in-charts/104244340

I suppose. But Aussies can get a 7 year medical degree for a TOTAL tuition fee of $85,000 at the University of Sydney which is ranked 25th in the world on the QS Global Ranking. Some might prefer that.

Wow. That is a great deal

All true but irrelevant if you want to practice medicine in America

My kid was in the hospital at Georgetown and like 1/3 of his doctors went to international medical schools. Not Caribbean, but European programs.

There clearly is a path to practice here.

Not if you want to join an elite practice or hospital. My vet associate - I later found out educated in Grenada - couldn't even do a standard neutering of a male cat and almost killed it. I was left with a bloody cat, a bloody bathroom where I had put the cat, and two day of very expensive cat emergency hospital bills. I NOW check the credential of any vet or doctor I deal with.

This poster has no idea what foreign-trained vets outside of certain countries (UK, Canada, Australia) have to go through to get certified to practice in the USA. They practically make it impossible. That's part of the reason why there's such a vet shortage in this country. There's more to the story here and it has nothing to do with that vet's foreign training.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey everyone,
Following up on the conversations I see around here and other places about why more US students are looking at universities overseas. I've been going down the rabbit hole on this with my husband and my kids. My son is a Junior and daughter a Freshman. Thye have both brought up the possibility of maybe going abroad for college. My husband went to grad school in the UK and Italy so he is all for it. I’m not yet sold on it.

While it's tempting to focus on the positives, I think it's smarter to start with the real-world downsides. The biggest one for me is the career question. Let's be honest, if you go to Oxford, Cambridge, or LSE, your degree will open doors anywhere. But what if you go to a really solid, but less famous, university in the UK, Netherlands, Italy or Canada? How do grads from those schools do when they try to find a job back in the States? I worry that a hiring manager in, say, Chicago might just toss a resume because they don't recognize the school's name.

You're also thousands of miles away from US-based career fairs and the alumni network that helps people land their first job. A college consultant who specializes in EU/Canadian and UK schools actually told us that outside of Oxbridge and LSE/Imperial, we should focus only on the top 12 schools in the UK or the top 3 in each of the other EU countries. Her reasoning was that all US grad schools and the vast majority of top US companies know these specific schools, even if the general public doesn't. She said the real issue is with local or regional employers who won't recognize the name. But her point was, if your goal is to work for a local company back home, then why go abroad in the first place?

Beyond that, you're obviously giving up the traditional "American college experience." The whole campus life, dorm culture, college sports, and clubs are just a different world over there. And we can't ignore the personal side. It's a huge move. You have to deal with visa paperwork, international banking, and the very real possibility of getting homesick and not having your support system a quick flight away. It’s a serious trade-off that goes way beyond academics. This mom is a little concerned.

Now with the scary stuff out of the way, the pros are still massive. The most obvious is the cost, which is just staggering. We're talking about the potential to get a degree for a price that's less than a single year at some private US colleges. The math is pretty compelling: with many EU public universities having tuition at a fraction of US schools, the savings are life-changing. Specially if you are able to invest that savings on behalf of your kids for when they graduate. But beyond the practical stuff, I realize there's the huge benefit of actually living in a different culture for three or four years. I have to imagine that navigating a new country, becoming more independent, and seeing the world from a completely different perspective forces you to grow as an individual in a way that staying in the US just can't replicate. For kids with an interest in global business, History, Languages or international relations, this experience seems like a no-brainer. You'd be living and breathing cross-cultural communication and could potentially pick up another language, skills that can really set you apart.

But the last piece of the puzzle I was curious about was the return plan. It seems like coming back to the US for a graduate degree is a well-worn path. US Master's programs and even J.D. programs are very used to seeing applicants with international degrees. I wonder how many kids simply stay in Canada/EU/UK after graduation. Would love to hear from parents here who have had this experience before with their kids.

Sorry for the long post.

OP, my son went to Exeter undergrad for Applied Finance in the apprenticeship program with JP Morgan in London. He was in the 2nd cohort of the program. He worked at JP Morgan in London for 3 years. He is now back in the US getting his MBA at a Top 5 program.

This is pretty cool. Where can i find more info about this apprenticeship program?

Anonymous wrote:Hey everyone,
Following up on the conversations I see around here and other places about why more US students are looking at universities overseas. I've been going down the rabbit hole on this with my husband and my kids. My son is a Junior and daughter a Freshman. Thye have both brought up the possibility of maybe going abroad for college. My husband went to grad school in the UK and Italy so he is all for it. I’m not yet sold on it.

While it's tempting to focus on the positives, I think it's smarter to start with the real-world downsides. The biggest one for me is the career question. Let's be honest, if you go to Oxford, Cambridge, or LSE, your degree will open doors anywhere. But what if you go to a really solid, but less famous, university in the UK, Netherlands, Italy or Canada? How do grads from those schools do when they try to find a job back in the States? I worry that a hiring manager in, say, Chicago might just toss a resume because they don't recognize the school's name.

You're also thousands of miles away from US-based career fairs and the alumni network that helps people land their first job. A college consultant who specializes in EU/Canadian and UK schools actually told us that outside of Oxbridge and LSE/Imperial, we should focus only on the top 12 schools in the UK or the top 3 in each of the other EU countries. Her reasoning was that all US grad schools and the vast majority of top US companies know these specific schools, even if the general public doesn't. She said the real issue is with local or regional employers who won't recognize the name. But her point was, if your goal is to work for a local company back home, then why go abroad in the first place?

Beyond that, you're obviously giving up the traditional "American college experience." The whole campus life, dorm culture, college sports, and clubs are just a different world over there. And we can't ignore the personal side. It's a huge move. You have to deal with visa paperwork, international banking, and the very real possibility of getting homesick and not having your support system a quick flight away. It’s a serious trade-off that goes way beyond academics. This mom is a little concerned.

Now with the scary stuff out of the way, the pros are still massive. The most obvious is the cost, which is just staggering. We're talking about the potential to get a degree for a price that's less than a single year at some private US colleges. The math is pretty compelling: with many EU public universities having tuition at a fraction of US schools, the savings are life-changing. Specially if you are able to invest that savings on behalf of your kids for when they graduate. But beyond the practical stuff, I realize there's the huge benefit of actually living in a different culture for three or four years. I have to imagine that navigating a new country, becoming more independent, and seeing the world from a completely different perspective forces you to grow as an individual in a way that staying in the US just can't replicate. For kids with an interest in global business, History, Languages or international relations, this experience seems like a no-brainer. You'd be living and breathing cross-cultural communication and could potentially pick up another language, skills that can really set you apart.

But the last piece of the puzzle I was curious about was the return plan. It seems like coming back to the US for a graduate degree is a well-worn path. US Master's programs and even J.D. programs are very used to seeing applicants with international degrees. I wonder how many kids simply stay in Canada/EU/UK after graduation. Would love to hear from parents here who have had this experience before with their kids.

Sorry for the long post.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is Swiss. He could not get in ETH, therefore he applied to us schools and is now at Stanford. ETH was his number 1 choice.

Let me get this straight...he couldn't get acceptance to a 27% acceptance rate school...and for some reason he was not interested in Cambridge or Oxford or other strong STEM schools...but he was accepted to Stanford.

You do have to speak German.

First of all, 27% acceptance rate is an overall acceptance rate. HE applied to Computer Science. And I konw you have little attitude, but let me put this way. ETH gets the top of the top. My Son scored 1600 in the easy SAT in one sitting. Scored 5’s on every AP test he took (he went to a boarding school here in Switzerland without AP courses). He is fluent in 5 languages. American tests are ridiculously easy for the best Swiss kids.

So please, get off you American high horse. Your HS system is pitiful and a complete disaster. Don’t come in here pretending you know it all. Because you clearly do not.

So...once more...what you are saying makes no sense. You essentially are admitting one of two things: (i) that your kid completely f**ked up the application, or (ii) ETH employs an even more nutso holistic admissions process than US schools (even though they claim to not do that).

There is no high horse, but simply poking holes in your fabricated story.

It's interesting though that you decided to attend Stanford considering our HS system is "pitiful and a complete disaster" which doesn't really have anything to do with anything...considering this entire thread is about US kids successfully applying and gaining acceptance to some of the top European universities.

Your inability to follow a simple line of reasoning is staggering. Let me, the foreigner in the room, be painfully clear, even if it means descending to a level of simplicity a native English speaker such as yourself can comprehend. If you'd prefer another language for this remedial lesson, German, French, Italian, Spanish or Portuguese, simply ask.

Yes, your high school system is a disaster. That is not my opinion; it is an objective, globally recognized fact. To place an average American high schooler in a room with a student from a Swiss Gymnasium is not a comparison; it is a cruelty.

You then commit the intellectually lazy error of conflating this with an attack on your elite universities. I can hold two thoughts in my head at once: your high schools are fundamentally broken, AND your top research institutions are excellent. Why can't you? There is no linkage, and my original statement made that perfectly clear.

Your worldview is laughably Americentric. The notion that all the “best of the best” flock to your undergraduate programs is a fantasy you tell yourselves. An institution like ETH Zurich doesn't need your validation. The only fabricated thing here is your pathetic allergy to facts.

You derailed this entire conversation because your ego couldn't handle a simple economic critique. This thread began by questioning the absurd cost, a quarter of a million dollars plus, for a frankly mediocre T100 American university. Your response was a delusional tirade about being the "envy of the world."

Here is one final data point for you. My son graduated 15th in his Swiss boarding school class. He treated your "rigorous" American entrance exams as a trivial exercise. Eight of the top fifteen students from his school are now at ETH. This isn't a coincidence. It's a choice made by those who prioritize substance over marketing. The fact that Stanford was his second choice should tell you everything you need to know.

Yet, supposedly around 500 Americans are studying at ETH Zurich as undergrads (the vast majority are from Switzerland...no surprise). Apparently, they were "better" than your kid even though they came from a pitiful HS system.

It's quite rare for anyone from a 1st world country to attend university outside of their home country. Why would it be odd for 8 of the top 15 students to not attend one of the top universities in their home country? The best students in the UK also attend Oxford and Cambridge and their excellent universities for the most part. They don't attend a US university because they could not get accepted to one of their excellent universities...they probably had the money and chose the international experience.

BTW, our high school system while a "disaster" still ranks ahead of Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Germany, Netherlands, France, Spain, Norway, Israel...maybe your view is those countries' high school systems are also a "disaster".

Curious. How do you figure the US high school system ranks ahead of those other countries? Source pls.

PISA rankings. Those are the international rankings of country education systems. 2022 is the most recent year that exists as they do this on a 3 year testing cycle.

https://www.datapandas.org/ranking/pisa-scores-by-country

Do you put much stock on the PISA scores? There’s been previous criticism about countries rigging the sampling. For a country like the US with such disparities in high school education it is probably a bit meaningless. When Massachusetts did it like a separate country, it ranked 8th globally on the reading score but the overall US ranked 18th, which suggests there are some states which are appallingly low.

Communist China does rig their PISA results. It is one of a small number of countries that rig results.

Singapore, UK, US, and most EU countries do NOT rig their results.

Other countries also have wide disparities in results in varying parts of that country. So that does not explain the poor US showing.

China is no longer ranked. They only had private school kids from Beijing and Shanghai taking the exam...and no shocker, they scored very well.

Again, it would be great if the US was higher than 18, but they do score higher than France, Germany, Netherlands, Belgium, Austria, Norway, Israel et al.

Also, the US overall ranked 9th on reading...which isn't that much worse than the 8th ranking for the state of MA.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is Swiss. He could not get in ETH, therefore he applied to us schools and is now at Stanford. ETH was his number 1 choice.

Let me get this straight...he couldn't get acceptance to a 27% acceptance rate school...and for some reason he was not interested in Cambridge or Oxford or other strong STEM schools...but he was accepted to Stanford.

You do have to speak German.

First of all, 27% acceptance rate is an overall acceptance rate. HE applied to Computer Science. And I konw you have little attitude, but let me put this way. ETH gets the top of the top. My Son scored 1600 in the easy SAT in one sitting. Scored 5’s on every AP test he took (he went to a boarding school here in Switzerland without AP courses). He is fluent in 5 languages. American tests are ridiculously easy for the best Swiss kids.

So please, get off you American high horse. Your HS system is pitiful and a complete disaster. Don’t come in here pretending you know it all. Because you clearly do not.

So...once more...what you are saying makes no sense. You essentially are admitting one of two things: (i) that your kid completely f**ked up the application, or (ii) ETH employs an even more nutso holistic admissions process than US schools (even though they claim to not do that).

There is no high horse, but simply poking holes in your fabricated story.

It's interesting though that you decided to attend Stanford considering our HS system is "pitiful and a complete disaster" which doesn't really have anything to do with anything...considering this entire thread is about US kids successfully applying and gaining acceptance to some of the top European universities.

Your inability to follow a simple line of reasoning is staggering. Let me, the foreigner in the room, be painfully clear, even if it means descending to a level of simplicity a native English speaker such as yourself can comprehend. If you'd prefer another language for this remedial lesson, German, French, Italian, Spanish or Portuguese, simply ask.

Yes, your high school system is a disaster. That is not my opinion; it is an objective, globally recognized fact. To place an average American high schooler in a room with a student from a Swiss Gymnasium is not a comparison; it is a cruelty.

You then commit the intellectually lazy error of conflating this with an attack on your elite universities. I can hold two thoughts in my head at once: your high schools are fundamentally broken, AND your top research institutions are excellent. Why can't you? There is no linkage, and my original statement made that perfectly clear.

Your worldview is laughably Americentric. The notion that all the “best of the best” flock to your undergraduate programs is a fantasy you tell yourselves. An institution like ETH Zurich doesn't need your validation. The only fabricated thing here is your pathetic allergy to facts.

You derailed this entire conversation because your ego couldn't handle a simple economic critique. This thread began by questioning the absurd cost, a quarter of a million dollars plus, for a frankly mediocre T100 American university. Your response was a delusional tirade about being the "envy of the world."

Here is one final data point for you. My son graduated 15th in his Swiss boarding school class. He treated your "rigorous" American entrance exams as a trivial exercise. Eight of the top fifteen students from his school are now at ETH. This isn't a coincidence. It's a choice made by those who prioritize substance over marketing. The fact that Stanford was his second choice should tell you everything you need to know.

Yet, supposedly around 500 Americans are studying at ETH Zurich as undergrads (the vast majority are from Switzerland...no surprise). Apparently, they were "better" than your kid even though they came from a pitiful HS system.

It's quite rare for anyone from a 1st world country to attend university outside of their home country. Why would it be odd for 8 of the top 15 students to not attend one of the top universities in their home country? The best students in the UK also attend Oxford and Cambridge and their excellent universities for the most part. They don't attend a US university because they could not get accepted to one of their excellent universities...they probably had the money and chose the international experience.

BTW, our high school system while a "disaster" still ranks ahead of Sweden, Belgium, Austria, Germany, Netherlands, France, Spain, Norway, Israel...maybe your view is those countries' high school systems are also a "disaster".

Curious. How do you figure the US high school system ranks ahead of those other countries? Source pls.

PISA rankings. Those are the international rankings of country education systems. 2022 is the most recent year that exists as they do this on a 3 year testing cycle.

https://www.datapandas.org/ranking/pisa-scores-by-country

Do you put much stock on the PISA scores? There’s been previous criticism about countries rigging the sampling. For a country like the US with such disparities in high school education it is probably a bit meaningless. When Massachusetts did it like a separate country, it ranked 8th globally on the reading score but the overall US ranked 18th, which suggests there are some states which are appallingly low.

Communist China does rig their PISA results. It is one of a small number of countries that rig results.

Singapore, UK, US, and most EU countries do NOT rig their results.

Other countries also have wide disparities in results in varying parts of that country. So that does not explain the poor US showing.