Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is the most confused thread I’ve encountered on DCUM, which says a lot. The private school dads in our circle are young, attractive, attentive, involved, wealthy and well-travelled. So are the moms. I guess that’s why they’re not in the DCUM relationship forum.

Experiences vary based on social class, where you went to school and what for, your career, and where you live. Dating is also much, much, worse for young gen Z types which I assume this article is geared towards.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:God I'd love it if my wife out earned me. I'd homemake so effin hard. I like cooking. I like woodworking and having the time to fix things. Work out and ride my motorocycle and do all the kids related things. Is sitting in front of a plastic box having teams meetings all day making me feel like a MAN anyway? lol

My DH got laid off during covid and it was seriously the best our lives have been lol. He was so dedicated to cooking, cleaning, shopping, fixing things, taking the dogs to the park, working out, etc. He still wishes he could be a "man of leisure" now.

Anonymous wrote:This is the most confused thread I’ve encountered on DCUM, which says a lot. The private school dads in our circle are young, attractive, attentive, involved, wealthy and well-travelled. So are the moms. I guess that’s why they’re not in the DCUM relationship forum.

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Anonymous wrote:The problem is not that women outearn men. The problem is that right now, money is the ONLY thing men bring to the table.

The vast majority of men have very little to offer other than a paycheck. How many men can run a household? Plan weekly romantic dates? Have an interesting conversation? Make a woman O every time they have sex? All things that woman can do easily WHILE holding down a full time job. Probably less than 1% of men can do these.

And now that women don't have to get married just to survive, they want more in a man than just a paycheck.

Most high-earning women (I'm one of them) don't care if a man earns less. I would happily pay most of the bills. What I DON'T want is to pay the bills, and then come home to a man who is completely clueless about what to make for dinner, who the kid's pediatrician is, what I'd like to do for a date, etc.

I'll bite.

Your assertion that the vast majority of men have very little to offer other than a paycheck weakens the credibility of your argument and indicates your bias. Certainly there are men, likely over 60 years of age, that fit your profile. But there are many younger men who contribute in meaningful ways outside of just having a paycheck. Just go to the grocery store or any park before 10am on a Sat or Sun. You will see these men, with a baby carrier, shopping for groceries or taking their kids for a walk in their stroller. There are also many men who can cook and do the cleaning inside of the house, which will harder for you to observe for obvious reasons.

I think your expectation that a man can not run a household is a moot point since men and women are different and likely would operate their households differently. I am going to generalize here. Men care less about a LOT of things. Women care a LOT about a lot more things. For example, a man might not care that their marble kitchen island is not clean at the end of the night. They might not care that there is bbq sauce that will stain the marble. Their attitude might be that they can just replace the marble on the island next year. A woman might care more about that and want to clean the island and wipe up any spills before she shuts it down for the night. While this may not be an example that will resonate with your personal situation, I think you can understand my point.

This is the same with going on a romantic date. I am going to generalize again. A man may not have a strong preference for a specific cuisine or restaurant, or even where they sit in a restaurant. A woman might care about the service at a restaurant, that they don't sit too close to the door, etc, so as a result, many men may ask their wives where they want to go so that they are not disappointed with the restaurant. Yes, the mental load is transferred to the wife to make a decision of the restaurant but it may not be an abdication of the responsibility but rather a desire to make their wife happy.

I realize that my response is way too long so let me get to my point. Your statement that you would not care if a man earns less belies your dissatisfactions in your marriage. I say this with kindness and gentleness, you will not be happy if your man does all of the things you want because happiness does not come from what your man does. If you can find it in your heart to be happy with your man, you will be happy with what he does. Sending you good vibes and leaving you with patience and love for your husband.

Men not caring is why women are opting out of relationships.

Imagine a man telling his boss and coworkers, "I don't care about the spills I leave on the break room counter. I don't care that you don't want to look at it. I don't care that you have to clean it up so that you can use it. I don't care if it stains the counter and we have to replace it. It's not coming out of my paycheck, and I'm not the one who will have to order it and coordinate the replacement".

Or imagine that same man has to take a client out to wine and dine them. He tells the client, "I don't care where we go. I don't care if they have bad service. I don't have any input or recommendations. Why don't you spend your time researching places on your phone, and while you're at it, you go ahead and figure out your own transportation and please don't talk to me too much during the dinner, I want to watch the game".

A man who behaved that way at work would be fired very quickly, and disliked by his coworkers, boss, and clients.

The entire point is to think through how your partner is impacted by your choices and actions. The entire point is to give a damn and live in a way that shows consideration and respect. If you want to live the same way you did as a bachelor, then there is no need for you to be in a relationship - the whole point of a relationship is to meet another person's needs.

And you have distorted the idea of "relationships don't bring happiness". That means that you SHOULD be able to find happiness while single and not rely on a relationship as your only source of happiness. But a relationship with a mooch and a loser will absolutely make you unhappy.

DP, the fact you (and many others) often use the comparison with a DH and his boss show how weird your relationshp-dynamics are. We are not the boss at home with DH reporting in as our subordinate.

A better comparison is how a man treats his equal peer. If you think men are doing equal work in the work place cleaning up spills, rather than searching for glory projects, I have news for you.

Someone else posted about finding the right restaurant for a client. Really? I go to client dinners and lunch all the time. It’s holiday season, we have to send gifts. Assistants are leading the detailed charge on these things - not the male employees.

Of course, not all men are like this. Some are awesome at work and home. But many of you are accepting that something happens at work that doesn’t happen at home. You might want to look closer at what that “something” actually is.

The comparison is because men keep saying they “don’t care” about things like cleanliness but that’s the reality of being in a shared space with other people. There’s a standard that has to be held.

If you don’t like work, think instead of roommates. With roommates there’s an expectation that you clean up after yourself because it’s the right thing to do and makes things nice for everyone. I’ve had male roommates, and they had to clean up after themselves and we rotated chores. They were all perfectly capable of doing it even though they may not “care” about the spills they left on the counter or the garbage overflowing onto the floor.

If men can’t be good housemates, can’t do romance, and basically want to live as if they were bachelors but with a woman in the house for them to sleep with - then they need to stay single. Women have realized men who are nothing but a paycheck aren’t worth it. You can have a roommate if you need to split the bills, a sperm donor if you want kids, hookups if you want sex.

The men who sit around crying about it are going to be left behind. It’s time to step it up and bring more to the table than a paycheck, or you will remain single.

I know a woman who spent her 20s and 30s building an incredible career. At 40 she became a SMBC with donor sperm and can afford all the help she needs. I think right now that’s the ideal - it’s much easier than going the traditional marriage route.

Sounds lonely.

The loneliest women are those stuck taking care of men who can’t even be bothered to clean up or take them on a date.

And the loneliest men are those who bust butt to support their family and pay for EVERYTHING by working in a performance culture where "what have you done for me lately?" is the rule, and handle all the cleaning and logistics, while their teacher (with guaranteed job) wife spends her income on massages and pedicures and uses ADHD as an excuse to trash the house, "not see" her messes, forget commitments, be late for everything, have constant disorganized drama, ignore the kids, and spend the weekends on her phone or with her girl pals because "she needs a break" from work.

A lot of teachers go in seeing it as a MRS degree and hope they get to say home when they have kids. There are always those teachers at school that seem constantly anxious, agitated, or depressed, probably because they didn’t think they were going to get stuck with a hard job for so long.

Almost everyone is anxious, agitated, or depressed about work. Work sucks.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:This is all very evident in the dating market.

Attractive, successful men can sleep around and decide to commit or not whenever they want. The apps make it easy for a select few of us.

Just don’t decide too long. As a mid 40s attractive woman, I’ve met too many of these elderly 60+ “players”. They are funny in their ego centric world trying to land a 15-20 years younger independently wealthy heiress who would travel with them while he’s throwing her his stick and some money,
No thank you - I would rather travel on my own or be an equal partner to someone my age.

I'm 47 now and just spent the weekend with a woman in her late 20s who complains about the men her age (but eventually does want to get married and have children with a husband closer to her age). This has been my life for the past seven years post divorce. As soon as it starts to slow down (I think I have another two years max), I think it will be just as easy to meet someone closer to my age.

A late 20s woman should be dating for marriage mid 30s men, not "spending weekends" with divorced dudes 20+ years older. I was that beautiful 20s woman 20 years ago. The only girls who dated that much older were not attractive. Being younger doesn't make anyone more attactive

Also, what men like you don't understand is that by jumping brunches chasing bodies in superficial relationships you waste time and ability to build a deep connection. You actually regress into your own 20s mentality and become a shallow, unattractive partner for someone your age. The things I look at in my potential mate in my 40s are totally different from what I was into in my 20s. Older women with experience are way more demanding and thus prefer to stay single over dating someone immature, like you.

Ding, ding, ding – one of you finally gets this.

DP. Now ask yourself whether “demanding” is an attractive trait to men in their 40s (or any other age). You’re so close to understanding why you’re really single, sweetie!

The “sweetie” is just so unnecessary, PP.

I’m not the PP you were referring to- but I think you have this backwards. I know exactly why I’m single, it’s because yes! I’m lucky enough to be demanding. I have everything I need - I have a happy healthy life, financial security, great kids.. Why would I not be demanding in my standards for others? mine are not financial but require attractiveness, high energy, and lifestyle/hobby compatibility.

I think it’s snide to use “single” as a diss- after my disaster of an exH I think of single as a hard earned badge of honor, I earned my peace and can value it - by both respecting men and being very selective.

Woman, 49

Even if you can "afford" to be demanding, it's still going to limit your pool and turn off many men. You indicate you want a partner, but your approach makes it much less likely that you will succeed. That's the crux of the situation described in this article: women have an unrealistic expectation of what they should expect in a partner. If you have money and kids already, maybe in your case, you really will be happier with a vibrator and trips with friends than partnering with someone you view as subpar. But for the millions of women who would actually benefit from, and want, a relationship, the unwillingness to accept reality is a disaster.

Disaster for whom? Just the women? I don’t think so because on the flip side, there’s millions of men who are deemed subpar and end up alone too. They’re not all going to get mail order brides as a solution because that leads to problems.

This stalemate is most disastrous for society as a whole and will lead to plummeting birth rates and population collapse. Using scare tactics on women (“you’ll end up alone! You’re going to be a childless cat lady!”) isn’t persuading anyone.

PP you quoted. I agree! It's a disaster for men and society as well, not just the women.

I guess the issue is that women are driving this stalemate, not men. They are the ones that are basically choosing to remain single unless they can get a man that is out of their league. You could flip it around and say that maybe men need to be better or more feminist or what have you, but men are not going to overnight acquire more college degrees, double their incomes, or become more attractive (though they could and should work out more and eat better). But women *could* overnight accept that they cannot find someone who checks all their boxes and be willing to entertain someone who checks 70% of their boxes.

Eating better and exercising in your 40-50s does wonders. I would take a fit dude making $200k over an overweight law partner making $2mm. Because in my 40s I value quality of life and don’t want to become his nurse when I’m 60.
It’s the hardest part for 90% Americans. The attraction laws are the same for men and women. Single women do a better job taking care of their health

All the fat lawyers and bankers are now on injectables so aren’t so obese any longer.
No muscle tone though.
No hobbies or interests. Just work addicts still who throw money at their kids and dates.

Yea, I’ve met many of those! It’s surprisingly amazing how uninteresting are many top earners. These are people who only did one thing whole life: making money. Many are also drinkers/on drugs (particular NYC finance).

I’ve met more who aren’t on drugs nor are alcoholics. Rather they are self-centered, one trick ponies: got top grades, then work too much.
A few confessed they are aspergers. So that explains a lot and that nothing will be changing.
So those are less about money or drugs, more about ego and hyperfocused on work and that image.

But agree, if yours going to lose 50 pounds in a few months start lifting weights daily! Yuck. Flab and dripping skin. Yuck.

A lot of the billionaires seem weird AF. Politics aside, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, and Bill Gates all seem a little off.

They all have mommies or wifeys or staff to do everything for them so they can work 24/7

That’s it.

They look “successful” at work, since that’s all they do or think about, but their home and rest of their life is chaos and nothing. Women prop them up for too, too long.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is not that women outearn men. The problem is that right now, money is the ONLY thing men bring to the table.

The vast majority of men have very little to offer other than a paycheck. How many men can run a household? Plan weekly romantic dates? Have an interesting conversation? Make a woman O every time they have sex? All things that woman can do easily WHILE holding down a full time job. Probably less than 1% of men can do these.

And now that women don't have to get married just to survive, they want more in a man than just a paycheck.

Most high-earning women (I'm one of them) don't care if a man earns less. I would happily pay most of the bills. What I DON'T want is to pay the bills, and then come home to a man who is completely clueless about what to make for dinner, who the kid's pediatrician is, what I'd like to do for a date, etc.

I'll bite.

Your assertion that the vast majority of men have very little to offer other than a paycheck weakens the credibility of your argument and indicates your bias. Certainly there are men, likely over 60 years of age, that fit your profile. But there are many younger men who contribute in meaningful ways outside of just having a paycheck. Just go to the grocery store or any park before 10am on a Sat or Sun. You will see these men, with a baby carrier, shopping for groceries or taking their kids for a walk in their stroller. There are also many men who can cook and do the cleaning inside of the house, which will harder for you to observe for obvious reasons.

I think your expectation that a man can not run a household is a moot point since men and women are different and likely would operate their households differently. I am going to generalize here. Men care less about a LOT of things. Women care a LOT about a lot more things. For example, a man might not care that their marble kitchen island is not clean at the end of the night. They might not care that there is bbq sauce that will stain the marble. Their attitude might be that they can just replace the marble on the island next year. A woman might care more about that and want to clean the island and wipe up any spills before she shuts it down for the night. While this may not be an example that will resonate with your personal situation, I think you can understand my point.

This is the same with going on a romantic date. I am going to generalize again. A man may not have a strong preference for a specific cuisine or restaurant, or even where they sit in a restaurant. A woman might care about the service at a restaurant, that they don't sit too close to the door, etc, so as a result, many men may ask their wives where they want to go so that they are not disappointed with the restaurant. Yes, the mental load is transferred to the wife to make a decision of the restaurant but it may not be an abdication of the responsibility but rather a desire to make their wife happy.

I realize that my response is way too long so let me get to my point. Your statement that you would not care if a man earns less belies your dissatisfactions in your marriage. I say this with kindness and gentleness, you will not be happy if your man does all of the things you want because happiness does not come from what your man does. If you can find it in your heart to be happy with your man, you will be happy with what he does. Sending you good vibes and leaving you with patience and love for your husband.

Men not caring is why women are opting out of relationships.

Imagine a man telling his boss and coworkers, "I don't care about the spills I leave on the break room counter. I don't care that you don't want to look at it. I don't care that you have to clean it up so that you can use it. I don't care if it stains the counter and we have to replace it. It's not coming out of my paycheck, and I'm not the one who will have to order it and coordinate the replacement".

Or imagine that same man has to take a client out to wine and dine them. He tells the client, "I don't care where we go. I don't care if they have bad service. I don't have any input or recommendations. Why don't you spend your time researching places on your phone, and while you're at it, you go ahead and figure out your own transportation and please don't talk to me too much during the dinner, I want to watch the game".

A man who behaved that way at work would be fired very quickly, and disliked by his coworkers, boss, and clients.

The entire point is to think through how your partner is impacted by your choices and actions. The entire point is to give a damn and live in a way that shows consideration and respect. If you want to live the same way you did as a bachelor, then there is no need for you to be in a relationship - the whole point of a relationship is to meet another person's needs.

And you have distorted the idea of "relationships don't bring happiness". That means that you SHOULD be able to find happiness while single and not rely on a relationship as your only source of happiness. But a relationship with a mooch and a loser will absolutely make you unhappy.

DP, the fact you (and many others) often use the comparison with a DH and his boss show how weird your relationshp-dynamics are. We are not the boss at home with DH reporting in as our subordinate.

A better comparison is how a man treats his equal peer. If you think men are doing equal work in the work place cleaning up spills, rather than searching for glory projects, I have news for you.

Someone else posted about finding the right restaurant for a client. Really? I go to client dinners and lunch all the time. It’s holiday season, we have to send gifts. Assistants are leading the detailed charge on these things - not the male employees.

Of course, not all men are like this. Some are awesome at work and home. But many of you are accepting that something happens at work that doesn’t happen at home. You might want to look closer at what that “something” actually is.

The comparison is because men keep saying they “don’t care” about things like cleanliness but that’s the reality of being in a shared space with other people. There’s a standard that has to be held.

If you don’t like work, think instead of roommates. With roommates there’s an expectation that you clean up after yourself because it’s the right thing to do and makes things nice for everyone. I’ve had male roommates, and they had to clean up after themselves and we rotated chores. They were all perfectly capable of doing it even though they may not “care” about the spills they left on the counter or the garbage overflowing onto the floor.

If men can’t be good housemates, can’t do romance, and basically want to live as if they were bachelors but with a woman in the house for them to sleep with - then they need to stay single. Women have realized men who are nothing but a paycheck aren’t worth it. You can have a roommate if you need to split the bills, a sperm donor if you want kids, hookups if you want sex.

The men who sit around crying about it are going to be left behind. It’s time to step it up and bring more to the table than a paycheck, or you will remain single.

I know a woman who spent her 20s and 30s building an incredible career. At 40 she became a SMBC with donor sperm and can afford all the help she needs. I think right now that’s the ideal - it’s much easier than going the traditional marriage route.

Sounds lonely.

The loneliest women are those stuck taking care of men who can’t even be bothered to clean up or take them on a date.

And the loneliest men are those who bust butt to support their family and pay for EVERYTHING by working in a performance culture where "what have you done for me lately?" is the rule, and handle all the cleaning and logistics, while their teacher (with guaranteed job) wife spends her income on massages and pedicures and uses ADHD as an excuse to trash the house, "not see" her messes, forget commitments, be late for everything, have constant disorganized drama, ignore the kids, and spend the weekends on her phone or with her girl pals because "she needs a break" from work.

A lot of teachers go in seeing it as a MRS degree and hope they get to say home when they have kids. There are always those teachers at school that seem constantly anxious, agitated, or depressed, probably because they didn’t think they were going to get stuck with a hard job for so long.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is all very evident in the dating market.

Attractive, successful men can sleep around and decide to commit or not whenever they want. The apps make it easy for a select few of us.

Just don’t decide too long. As a mid 40s attractive woman, I’ve met too many of these elderly 60+ “players”. They are funny in their ego centric world trying to land a 15-20 years younger independently wealthy heiress who would travel with them while he’s throwing her his stick and some money,
No thank you - I would rather travel on my own or be an equal partner to someone my age.

I'm 47 now and just spent the weekend with a woman in her late 20s who complains about the men her age (but eventually does want to get married and have children with a husband closer to her age). This has been my life for the past seven years post divorce. As soon as it starts to slow down (I think I have another two years max), I think it will be just as easy to meet someone closer to my age.

A late 20s woman should be dating for marriage mid 30s men, not "spending weekends" with divorced dudes 20+ years older. I was that beautiful 20s woman 20 years ago. The only girls who dated that much older were not attractive. Being younger doesn't make anyone more attactive

Also, what men like you don't understand is that by jumping brunches chasing bodies in superficial relationships you waste time and ability to build a deep connection. You actually regress into your own 20s mentality and become a shallow, unattractive partner for someone your age. The things I look at in my potential mate in my 40s are totally different from what I was into in my 20s. Older women with experience are way more demanding and thus prefer to stay single over dating someone immature, like you.

Ding, ding, ding – one of you finally gets this.

DP. Now ask yourself whether “demanding” is an attractive trait to men in their 40s (or any other age). You’re so close to understanding why you’re really single, sweetie!

The “sweetie” is just so unnecessary, PP.

I’m not the PP you were referring to- but I think you have this backwards. I know exactly why I’m single, it’s because yes! I’m lucky enough to be demanding. I have everything I need - I have a happy healthy life, financial security, great kids.. Why would I not be demanding in my standards for others? mine are not financial but require attractiveness, high energy, and lifestyle/hobby compatibility.

I think it’s snide to use “single” as a diss- after my disaster of an exH I think of single as a hard earned badge of honor, I earned my peace and can value it - by both respecting men and being very selective.

Woman, 49

Even if you can "afford" to be demanding, it's still going to limit your pool and turn off many men. You indicate you want a partner, but your approach makes it much less likely that you will succeed. That's the crux of the situation described in this article: women have an unrealistic expectation of what they should expect in a partner. If you have money and kids already, maybe in your case, you really will be happier with a vibrator and trips with friends than partnering with someone you view as subpar. But for the millions of women who would actually benefit from, and want, a relationship, the unwillingness to accept reality is a disaster.

This sounds like it was written by a sub-par man who wants beautiful successful women to settle for whatever garbage he has to offer. Why should women have to settle, just to have a partner? A man-child at home is NOT better than being single for a majority of women.

Anonymous wrote:God I'd love it if my wife out earned me. I'd homemake so effin hard. I like cooking. I like woodworking and having the time to fix things. Work out and ride my motorocycle and do all the kids related things. Is sitting in front of a plastic box having teams meetings all day making me feel like a MAN anyway? lol

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This is all very evident in the dating market.

Attractive, successful men can sleep around and decide to commit or not whenever they want. The apps make it easy for a select few of us.

Just don’t decide too long. As a mid 40s attractive woman, I’ve met too many of these elderly 60+ “players”. They are funny in their ego centric world trying to land a 15-20 years younger independently wealthy heiress who would travel with them while he’s throwing her his stick and some money,
No thank you - I would rather travel on my own or be an equal partner to someone my age.

I'm 47 now and just spent the weekend with a woman in her late 20s who complains about the men her age (but eventually does want to get married and have children with a husband closer to her age). This has been my life for the past seven years post divorce. As soon as it starts to slow down (I think I have another two years max), I think it will be just as easy to meet someone closer to my age.

A late 20s woman should be dating for marriage mid 30s men, not "spending weekends" with divorced dudes 20+ years older. I was that beautiful 20s woman 20 years ago. The only girls who dated that much older were not attractive. Being younger doesn't make anyone more attactive

Also, what men like you don't understand is that by jumping brunches chasing bodies in superficial relationships you waste time and ability to build a deep connection. You actually regress into your own 20s mentality and become a shallow, unattractive partner for someone your age. The things I look at in my potential mate in my 40s are totally different from what I was into in my 20s. Older women with experience are way more demanding and thus prefer to stay single over dating someone immature, like you.

Ding, ding, ding – one of you finally gets this.

DP. Now ask yourself whether “demanding” is an attractive trait to men in their 40s (or any other age). You’re so close to understanding why you’re really single, sweetie!

The “sweetie” is just so unnecessary, PP.

I’m not the PP you were referring to- but I think you have this backwards. I know exactly why I’m single, it’s because yes! I’m lucky enough to be demanding. I have everything I need - I have a happy healthy life, financial security, great kids.. Why would I not be demanding in my standards for others? mine are not financial but require attractiveness, high energy, and lifestyle/hobby compatibility.

I think it’s snide to use “single” as a diss- after my disaster of an exH I think of single as a hard earned badge of honor, I earned my peace and can value it - by both respecting men and being very selective.

Woman, 49

Even if you can "afford" to be demanding, it's still going to limit your pool and turn off many men. You indicate you want a partner, but your approach makes it much less likely that you will succeed. That's the crux of the situation described in this article: women have an unrealistic expectation of what they should expect in a partner. If you have money and kids already, maybe in your case, you really will be happier with a vibrator and trips with friends than partnering with someone you view as subpar. But for the millions of women who would actually benefit from, and want, a relationship, the unwillingness to accept reality is a disaster.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I got a couple high earning high status male friends and privately they lament their choices and essentially have nothing outside of work to talk about. Worlds tiniest violin. They seem to be propelled through some sort of compulsion or all eggs in one basket mentality.

They cannot multi task.

They must have apartment cleaners and order take out a lot.

Ultimately they are immature and developmentally behind. A far cry from the engineering dads we had who worked fulltime, coached and taught his kids, played on a softball or tennis league, and worked with power tools to fix the house or build cool things for the yard.

Today’s male college grad can’t even use a drill properly. And then they’ll lose the drill bit.

Hard to climb to the top of the ladder if you don't go all in. Maybe the engineering dads of yesteryear could pull it off working a same 40 work week.

That’s false

I know lots of well-rounded married with kids men in private equity and VC.

They give a damn about more than work. And prove it all the time.

Plan wife’s bday trip to Montreal. Find lax programs for their son. Work their butts off, true. Read a hard cover a month. Go to music concerts a few times a year. Stay in shape.

And yes they’re very successful at work. Moreover in life.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is not that women outearn men. The problem is that right now, money is the ONLY thing men bring to the table.

The vast majority of men have very little to offer other than a paycheck. How many men can run a household? Plan weekly romantic dates? Have an interesting conversation? Make a woman O every time they have sex? All things that woman can do easily WHILE holding down a full time job. Probably less than 1% of men can do these.

And now that women don't have to get married just to survive, they want more in a man than just a paycheck.

Most high-earning women (I'm one of them) don't care if a man earns less. I would happily pay most of the bills. What I DON'T want is to pay the bills, and then come home to a man who is completely clueless about what to make for dinner, who the kid's pediatrician is, what I'd like to do for a date, etc.

I'll bite.

Your assertion that the vast majority of men have very little to offer other than a paycheck weakens the credibility of your argument and indicates your bias. Certainly there are men, likely over 60 years of age, that fit your profile. But there are many younger men who contribute in meaningful ways outside of just having a paycheck. Just go to the grocery store or any park before 10am on a Sat or Sun. You will see these men, with a baby carrier, shopping for groceries or taking their kids for a walk in their stroller. There are also many men who can cook and do the cleaning inside of the house, which will harder for you to observe for obvious reasons.

I think your expectation that a man can not run a household is a moot point since men and women are different and likely would operate their households differently. I am going to generalize here. Men care less about a LOT of things. Women care a LOT about a lot more things. For example, a man might not care that their marble kitchen island is not clean at the end of the night. They might not care that there is bbq sauce that will stain the marble. Their attitude might be that they can just replace the marble on the island next year. A woman might care more about that and want to clean the island and wipe up any spills before she shuts it down for the night. While this may not be an example that will resonate with your personal situation, I think you can understand my point.

This is the same with going on a romantic date. I am going to generalize again. A man may not have a strong preference for a specific cuisine or restaurant, or even where they sit in a restaurant. A woman might care about the service at a restaurant, that they don't sit too close to the door, etc, so as a result, many men may ask their wives where they want to go so that they are not disappointed with the restaurant. Yes, the mental load is transferred to the wife to make a decision of the restaurant but it may not be an abdication of the responsibility but rather a desire to make their wife happy.

I realize that my response is way too long so let me get to my point. Your statement that you would not care if a man earns less belies your dissatisfactions in your marriage. I say this with kindness and gentleness, you will not be happy if your man does all of the things you want because happiness does not come from what your man does. If you can find it in your heart to be happy with your man, you will be happy with what he does. Sending you good vibes and leaving you with patience and love for your husband.

Men not caring is why women are opting out of relationships.

Imagine a man telling his boss and coworkers, "I don't care about the spills I leave on the break room counter. I don't care that you don't want to look at it. I don't care that you have to clean it up so that you can use it. I don't care if it stains the counter and we have to replace it. It's not coming out of my paycheck, and I'm not the one who will have to order it and coordinate the replacement".

Or imagine that same man has to take a client out to wine and dine them. He tells the client, "I don't care where we go. I don't care if they have bad service. I don't have any input or recommendations. Why don't you spend your time researching places on your phone, and while you're at it, you go ahead and figure out your own transportation and please don't talk to me too much during the dinner, I want to watch the game".

A man who behaved that way at work would be fired very quickly, and disliked by his coworkers, boss, and clients.

The entire point is to think through how your partner is impacted by your choices and actions. The entire point is to give a damn and live in a way that shows consideration and respect. If you want to live the same way you did as a bachelor, then there is no need for you to be in a relationship - the whole point of a relationship is to meet another person's needs.

And you have distorted the idea of "relationships don't bring happiness". That means that you SHOULD be able to find happiness while single and not rely on a relationship as your only source of happiness. But a relationship with a mooch and a loser will absolutely make you unhappy.

DP, the fact you (and many others) often use the comparison with a DH and his boss show how weird your relationshp-dynamics are. We are not the boss at home with DH reporting in as our subordinate.

A better comparison is how a man treats his equal peer. If you think men are doing equal work in the work place cleaning up spills, rather than searching for glory projects, I have news for you.

Someone else posted about finding the right restaurant for a client. Really? I go to client dinners and lunch all the time. It’s holiday season, we have to send gifts. Assistants are leading the detailed charge on these things - not the male employees.

Of course, not all men are like this. Some are awesome at work and home. But many of you are accepting that something happens at work that doesn’t happen at home. You might want to look closer at what that “something” actually is.

The comparison is because men keep saying they “don’t care” about things like cleanliness but that’s the reality of being in a shared space with other people. There’s a standard that has to be held.

If you don’t like work, think instead of roommates. With roommates there’s an expectation that you clean up after yourself because it’s the right thing to do and makes things nice for everyone. I’ve had male roommates, and they had to clean up after themselves and we rotated chores. They were all perfectly capable of doing it even though they may not “care” about the spills they left on the counter or the garbage overflowing onto the floor.

If men can’t be good housemates, can’t do romance, and basically want to live as if they were bachelors but with a woman in the house for them to sleep with - then they need to stay single. Women have realized men who are nothing but a paycheck aren’t worth it. You can have a roommate if you need to split the bills, a sperm donor if you want kids, hookups if you want sex.

The men who sit around crying about it are going to be left behind. It’s time to step it up and bring more to the table than a paycheck, or you will remain single.

I know a woman who spent her 20s and 30s building an incredible career. At 40 she became a SMBC with donor sperm and can afford all the help she needs. I think right now that’s the ideal - it’s much easier than going the traditional marriage route.

Sounds lonely.

The loneliest women are those stuck taking care of men who can’t even be bothered to clean up or take them on a date.

And the loneliest men are those who bust butt to support their family and pay for EVERYTHING by working in a performance culture where "what have you done for me lately?" is the rule, and handle all the cleaning and logistics, while their teacher (with guaranteed job) wife spends her income on massages and pedicures and uses ADHD as an excuse to trash the house, "not see" her messes, forget commitments, be late for everything, have constant disorganized drama, ignore the kids, and spend the weekends on her phone or with her girl pals because "she needs a break" from work.

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Anonymous wrote:This is all very evident in the dating market.

Attractive, successful men can sleep around and decide to commit or not whenever they want. The apps make it easy for a select few of us.

Just don’t decide too long. As a mid 40s attractive woman, I’ve met too many of these elderly 60+ “players”. They are funny in their ego centric world trying to land a 15-20 years younger independently wealthy heiress who would travel with them while he’s throwing her his stick and some money,
No thank you - I would rather travel on my own or be an equal partner to someone my age.

I'm 47 now and just spent the weekend with a woman in her late 20s who complains about the men her age (but eventually does want to get married and have children with a husband closer to her age). This has been my life for the past seven years post divorce. As soon as it starts to slow down (I think I have another two years max), I think it will be just as easy to meet someone closer to my age.

A late 20s woman should be dating for marriage mid 30s men, not "spending weekends" with divorced dudes 20+ years older. I was that beautiful 20s woman 20 years ago. The only girls who dated that much older were not attractive. Being younger doesn't make anyone more attactive

Also, what men like you don't understand is that by jumping brunches chasing bodies in superficial relationships you waste time and ability to build a deep connection. You actually regress into your own 20s mentality and become a shallow, unattractive partner for someone your age. The things I look at in my potential mate in my 40s are totally different from what I was into in my 20s. Older women with experience are way more demanding and thus prefer to stay single over dating someone immature, like you.

Ding, ding, ding – one of you finally gets this.

DP. Now ask yourself whether “demanding” is an attractive trait to men in their 40s (or any other age). You’re so close to understanding why you’re really single, sweetie!

The “sweetie” is just so unnecessary, PP.

I’m not the PP you were referring to- but I think you have this backwards. I know exactly why I’m single, it’s because yes! I’m lucky enough to be demanding. I have everything I need - I have a happy healthy life, financial security, great kids.. Why would I not be demanding in my standards for others? mine are not financial but require attractiveness, high energy, and lifestyle/hobby compatibility.

I think it’s snide to use “single” as a diss- after my disaster of an exH I think of single as a hard earned badge of honor, I earned my peace and can value it - by both respecting men and being very selective.

Woman, 49

Even if you can "afford" to be demanding, it's still going to limit your pool and turn off many men. You indicate you want a partner, but your approach makes it much less likely that you will succeed. That's the crux of the situation described in this article: women have an unrealistic expectation of what they should expect in a partner. If you have money and kids already, maybe in your case, you really will be happier with a vibrator and trips with friends than partnering with someone you view as subpar. But for the millions of women who would actually benefit from, and want, a relationship, the unwillingness to accept reality is a disaster.

Disaster for whom? Just the women? I don’t think so because on the flip side, there’s millions of men who are deemed subpar and end up alone too. They’re not all going to get mail order brides as a solution because that leads to problems.

This stalemate is most disastrous for society as a whole and will lead to plummeting birth rates and population collapse. Using scare tactics on women (“you’ll end up alone! You’re going to be a childless cat lady!”) isn’t persuading anyone.

PP you quoted. I agree! It's a disaster for men and society as well, not just the women.

I guess the issue is that women are driving this stalemate, not men. They are the ones that are basically choosing to remain single unless they can get a man that is out of their league. You could flip it around and say that maybe men need to be better or more feminist or what have you, but men are not going to overnight acquire more college degrees, double their incomes, or become more attractive (though they could and should work out more and eat better). But women *could* overnight accept that they cannot find someone who checks all their boxes and be willing to entertain someone who checks 70% of their boxes.

Eating better and exercising in your 40-50s does wonders. I would take a fit dude making $200k over an overweight law partner making $2mm. Because in my 40s I value quality of life and don’t want to become his nurse when I’m 60.
It’s the hardest part for 90% Americans. The attraction laws are the same for men and women. Single women do a better job taking care of their health

All the fat lawyers and bankers are now on injectables so aren’t so obese any longer.
No muscle tone though.
No hobbies or interests. Just work addicts still who throw money at their kids and dates.

Yea, I’ve met many of those! It’s surprisingly amazing how uninteresting are many top earners. These are people who only did one thing whole life: making money. Many are also drinkers/on drugs (particular NYC finance).

I’ve met more who aren’t on drugs nor are alcoholics. Rather they are self-centered, one trick ponies: got top grades, then work too much.
A few confessed they are aspergers. So that explains a lot and that nothing will be changing.
So those are less about money or drugs, more about ego and hyperfocused on work and that image.

But agree, if yours going to lose 50 pounds in a few months start lifting weights daily! Yuck. Flab and dripping skin. Yuck.

A lot of the billionaires seem weird AF. Politics aside, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, and Bill Gates all seem a little off.

Tism, ???, Tism, ???, Tism

Yes but they’re also incredibly brilliant and literally one in a billion so their weirdness is excused. They can partner with anyone they choose. Your run of the mill wealthy guy with 10-20m net worth and no other skills or charisma isn’t worth being with for non desperate women.

lol.

Go date them and live with them yourself then.

Write back in 6 mos how it’s going.

Why would they date me, a schlubby average mom? You personally might find them repulsive but they can and have partnered with extraordinary women who’ve had their kids.

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Anonymous wrote:This is all very evident in the dating market.

Attractive, successful men can sleep around and decide to commit or not whenever they want. The apps make it easy for a select few of us.

Just don’t decide too long. As a mid 40s attractive woman, I’ve met too many of these elderly 60+ “players”. They are funny in their ego centric world trying to land a 15-20 years younger independently wealthy heiress who would travel with them while he’s throwing her his stick and some money,
No thank you - I would rather travel on my own or be an equal partner to someone my age.

I'm 47 now and just spent the weekend with a woman in her late 20s who complains about the men her age (but eventually does want to get married and have children with a husband closer to her age). This has been my life for the past seven years post divorce. As soon as it starts to slow down (I think I have another two years max), I think it will be just as easy to meet someone closer to my age.

A late 20s woman should be dating for marriage mid 30s men, not "spending weekends" with divorced dudes 20+ years older. I was that beautiful 20s woman 20 years ago. The only girls who dated that much older were not attractive. Being younger doesn't make anyone more attactive

Also, what men like you don't understand is that by jumping brunches chasing bodies in superficial relationships you waste time and ability to build a deep connection. You actually regress into your own 20s mentality and become a shallow, unattractive partner for someone your age. The things I look at in my potential mate in my 40s are totally different from what I was into in my 20s. Older women with experience are way more demanding and thus prefer to stay single over dating someone immature, like you.

Ding, ding, ding – one of you finally gets this.

DP. Now ask yourself whether “demanding” is an attractive trait to men in their 40s (or any other age). You’re so close to understanding why you’re really single, sweetie!

The “sweetie” is just so unnecessary, PP.

I’m not the PP you were referring to- but I think you have this backwards. I know exactly why I’m single, it’s because yes! I’m lucky enough to be demanding. I have everything I need - I have a happy healthy life, financial security, great kids.. Why would I not be demanding in my standards for others? mine are not financial but require attractiveness, high energy, and lifestyle/hobby compatibility.

I think it’s snide to use “single” as a diss- after my disaster of an exH I think of single as a hard earned badge of honor, I earned my peace and can value it - by both respecting men and being very selective.

Woman, 49

Even if you can "afford" to be demanding, it's still going to limit your pool and turn off many men. You indicate you want a partner, but your approach makes it much less likely that you will succeed. That's the crux of the situation described in this article: women have an unrealistic expectation of what they should expect in a partner. If you have money and kids already, maybe in your case, you really will be happier with a vibrator and trips with friends than partnering with someone you view as subpar. But for the millions of women who would actually benefit from, and want, a relationship, the unwillingness to accept reality is a disaster.

Disaster for whom? Just the women? I don’t think so because on the flip side, there’s millions of men who are deemed subpar and end up alone too. They’re not all going to get mail order brides as a solution because that leads to problems.

This stalemate is most disastrous for society as a whole and will lead to plummeting birth rates and population collapse. Using scare tactics on women (“you’ll end up alone! You’re going to be a childless cat lady!”) isn’t persuading anyone.

PP you quoted. I agree! It's a disaster for men and society as well, not just the women.

I guess the issue is that women are driving this stalemate, not men. They are the ones that are basically choosing to remain single unless they can get a man that is out of their league. You could flip it around and say that maybe men need to be better or more feminist or what have you, but men are not going to overnight acquire more college degrees, double their incomes, or become more attractive (though they could and should work out more and eat better). But women *could* overnight accept that they cannot find someone who checks all their boxes and be willing to entertain someone who checks 70% of their boxes.

Eating better and exercising in your 40-50s does wonders. I would take a fit dude making $200k over an overweight law partner making $2mm. Because in my 40s I value quality of life and don’t want to become his nurse when I’m 60.
It’s the hardest part for 90% Americans. The attraction laws are the same for men and women. Single women do a better job taking care of their health

All the fat lawyers and bankers are now on injectables so aren’t so obese any longer.
No muscle tone though.
No hobbies or interests. Just work addicts still who throw money at their kids and dates.

Yea, I’ve met many of those! It’s surprisingly amazing how uninteresting are many top earners. These are people who only did one thing whole life: making money. Many are also drinkers/on drugs (particular NYC finance).

I’ve met more who aren’t on drugs nor are alcoholics. Rather they are self-centered, one trick ponies: got top grades, then work too much.
A few confessed they are aspergers. So that explains a lot and that nothing will be changing.
So those are less about money or drugs, more about ego and hyperfocused on work and that image.

But agree, if yours going to lose 50 pounds in a few months start lifting weights daily! Yuck. Flab and dripping skin. Yuck.

A lot of the billionaires seem weird AF. Politics aside, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Mark Zuckerberg, Steve Jobs, and Bill Gates all seem a little off.

Tism, ???, Tism, ???, Tism

Yes but they’re also incredibly brilliant and literally one in a billion so their weirdness is excused. They can partner with anyone they choose. Your run of the mill wealthy guy with 10-20m net worth and no other skills or charisma isn’t worth being with for non desperate women.

lol.

Go date them and live with them yourself then.

Write back in 6 mos how it’s going.

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Anonymous wrote:The problem is not that women outearn men. The problem is that right now, money is the ONLY thing men bring to the table.

The vast majority of men have very little to offer other than a paycheck. How many men can run a household? Plan weekly romantic dates? Have an interesting conversation? Make a woman O every time they have sex? All things that woman can do easily WHILE holding down a full time job. Probably less than 1% of men can do these.

And now that women don't have to get married just to survive, they want more in a man than just a paycheck.

Most high-earning women (I'm one of them) don't care if a man earns less. I would happily pay most of the bills. What I DON'T want is to pay the bills, and then come home to a man who is completely clueless about what to make for dinner, who the kid's pediatrician is, what I'd like to do for a date, etc.

I'll bite.

Your assertion that the vast majority of men have very little to offer other than a paycheck weakens the credibility of your argument and indicates your bias. Certainly there are men, likely over 60 years of age, that fit your profile. But there are many younger men who contribute in meaningful ways outside of just having a paycheck. Just go to the grocery store or any park before 10am on a Sat or Sun. You will see these men, with a baby carrier, shopping for groceries or taking their kids for a walk in their stroller. There are also many men who can cook and do the cleaning inside of the house, which will harder for you to observe for obvious reasons.

I think your expectation that a man can not run a household is a moot point since men and women are different and likely would operate their households differently. I am going to generalize here. Men care less about a LOT of things. Women care a LOT about a lot more things. For example, a man might not care that their marble kitchen island is not clean at the end of the night. They might not care that there is bbq sauce that will stain the marble. Their attitude might be that they can just replace the marble on the island next year. A woman might care more about that and want to clean the island and wipe up any spills before she shuts it down for the night. While this may not be an example that will resonate with your personal situation, I think you can understand my point.

This is the same with going on a romantic date. I am going to generalize again. A man may not have a strong preference for a specific cuisine or restaurant, or even where they sit in a restaurant. A woman might care about the service at a restaurant, that they don't sit too close to the door, etc, so as a result, many men may ask their wives where they want to go so that they are not disappointed with the restaurant. Yes, the mental load is transferred to the wife to make a decision of the restaurant but it may not be an abdication of the responsibility but rather a desire to make their wife happy.

I realize that my response is way too long so let me get to my point. Your statement that you would not care if a man earns less belies your dissatisfactions in your marriage. I say this with kindness and gentleness, you will not be happy if your man does all of the things you want because happiness does not come from what your man does. If you can find it in your heart to be happy with your man, you will be happy with what he does. Sending you good vibes and leaving you with patience and love for your husband.

Men not caring is why women are opting out of relationships.

Imagine a man telling his boss and coworkers, "I don't care about the spills I leave on the break room counter. I don't care that you don't want to look at it. I don't care that you have to clean it up so that you can use it. I don't care if it stains the counter and we have to replace it. It's not coming out of my paycheck, and I'm not the one who will have to order it and coordinate the replacement".

Or imagine that same man has to take a client out to wine and dine them. He tells the client, "I don't care where we go. I don't care if they have bad service. I don't have any input or recommendations. Why don't you spend your time researching places on your phone, and while you're at it, you go ahead and figure out your own transportation and please don't talk to me too much during the dinner, I want to watch the game".

A man who behaved that way at work would be fired very quickly, and disliked by his coworkers, boss, and clients.

The entire point is to think through how your partner is impacted by your choices and actions. The entire point is to give a damn and live in a way that shows consideration and respect. If you want to live the same way you did as a bachelor, then there is no need for you to be in a relationship - the whole point of a relationship is to meet another person's needs.

And you have distorted the idea of "relationships don't bring happiness". That means that you SHOULD be able to find happiness while single and not rely on a relationship as your only source of happiness. But a relationship with a mooch and a loser will absolutely make you unhappy.

DP, the fact you (and many others) often use the comparison with a DH and his boss show how weird your relationshp-dynamics are. We are not the boss at home with DH reporting in as our subordinate.

A better comparison is how a man treats his equal peer. If you think men are doing equal work in the work place cleaning up spills, rather than searching for glory projects, I have news for you.

Someone else posted about finding the right restaurant for a client. Really? I go to client dinners and lunch all the time. It’s holiday season, we have to send gifts. Assistants are leading the detailed charge on these things - not the male employees.

Of course, not all men are like this. Some are awesome at work and home. But many of you are accepting that something happens at work that doesn’t happen at home. You might want to look closer at what that “something” actually is.

The comparison is because men keep saying they “don’t care” about things like cleanliness but that’s the reality of being in a shared space with other people. There’s a standard that has to be held.

If you don’t like work, think instead of roommates. With roommates there’s an expectation that you clean up after yourself because it’s the right thing to do and makes things nice for everyone. I’ve had male roommates, and they had to clean up after themselves and we rotated chores. They were all perfectly capable of doing it even though they may not “care” about the spills they left on the counter or the garbage overflowing onto the floor.

If men can’t be good housemates, can’t do romance, and basically want to live as if they were bachelors but with a woman in the house for them to sleep with - then they need to stay single. Women have realized men who are nothing but a paycheck aren’t worth it. You can have a roommate if you need to split the bills, a sperm donor if you want kids, hookups if you want sex.

The men who sit around crying about it are going to be left behind. It’s time to step it up and bring more to the table than a paycheck, or you will remain single.

I know a woman who spent her 20s and 30s building an incredible career. At 40 she became a SMBC with donor sperm and can afford all the help she needs. I think right now that’s the ideal - it’s much easier than going the traditional marriage route.

Sounds lonely.

The loneliest women are those stuck taking care of men who can’t even be bothered to clean up or take them on a date.

And the loneliest men are those who bust butt to support their family and pay for EVERYTHING by working in a performance culture where "what have you done for me lately?" is the rule, and handle all the cleaning and logistics, while their teacher (with guaranteed job) wife spends her income on massages and pedicures and uses ADHD as an excuse to trash the house, "not see" her messes, forget commitments, be late for everything, have constant disorganized drama, ignore the kids, and spend the weekends on her phone or with her girl pals because "she needs a break" from work.