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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The olds’ hypocrisy of “The man proposes with a diamond ring on bended knee after getting permission from her father” but “I am a proud feminist” simply cannot die off soon enough.

Gag.

Has any of the women here who expects a ring identifiex herself as a feminist?

I don't know how they could. Feminism is about having choices and honoring the choice. Expecting a proposal and an engagement ring is anti-feminist even when it's a role reversal - their expectation is that a man will meet the expectation of gendered role simply because he's male. It's definitely contrary to feminism.

I expected a ring and consider myself a feminist for sure. Feminism is absolutely about a woman’s freedom to live her life the way she chooses, to vote and get an education just as any man could, to be president or a SAHM. It doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the differences between the sexes, both in terms of biology and society. Seems like we disagree on what feminism is.

I don’t care one bit if a woman wants a ring or not, but I do hope in these situations it’s not a woman wanting a ring and going along with not getting one to keep her guy or appear like a cool girl. I particularly love the greenhouse story.

If you consider yourself a feminist, how have you missed the Fourth Wave?

Feminists now recognize that it is not just women that are harmed by women's inequity. Everyone is harm even men. Gendered norms are just as much pillars of toxic masculinity and patriarchy as women's inequity. Expecting a man to propose and give you a ring just because he's a man and you're a woman is a gendered norm.

There is nothing wrong with wanting and asking for something. How a someone responds to a loved one's request is an indication of what kind of partner they will be. Expecting a ring and proposal from a man because you are a woman is no different than a expecting a woman to be responsible all gift giving for her DH's family simply because that's what women are supposed to do. Again, asking is perfectly fine. Expecting something because of gendered norms is not.

I feel like you completely don't understand fourth-wave feminism. You are just talking about equality, not equity. I am glad a lot of us have moved on from "choice feminism," but the idea that we can just switch gender roles to see what's okay and what isn't is poorly lacking in analysis. That's like saying that a woman catcalling a man is as bad as a man catcalling a woman. It sounds nice and tidy but ignores the element of traditional male entitlement to a woman's kindness and attention, as well as the very real physical danger men pose to women. Men and women are not the same because historically we have been treated very differently. In terms of rings, women have been groomed to believe that their worth depends on being married, and so a lot of women will be willing to give way more than they get in order to become and stay married. It's totally reasonable for a woman to say "look, marriage is often a better deal for men than it is for women, and I need to know that you're excited to marry me and commit to me, and to me, part of that is a ring." If a woman doesn't want a ring, then obviously that is fine too (I am not 100% with OP on that).

And in what way are men harmed by a woman refusing to marry without a ring? They might not get to marry that woman? They might have to buy a worse car so they can afford a ring? I can provide in specific detail the harm that comes from a man expecting his wife to take care of the mental load of gift-giving in his family. These are not equivalent.

PP you're responding to. Feminism is not about comparative injustice. We can all acknowledge the disproporationate degree to which women have suffered, been targeted and discriminated against. That doesn't mean it is acceptable to treat men in the way that we have been treated. Wrong is wrong no matter the gender.

It seems you are agreeing with me regarding the ring. There's nothing wrong with a woman asking/wanting/accepting a ring. What's wrong is the expectation of a ring because that's what men get women they want to marry.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph but it appears to be some sort of comparison of effort. It doesn't matter. Wrong is wrong.

There is nothing wrong with this. Nothing.

Just like there's nothing wrong to expect your wife and daughter to be housewives because that's what women do.

If my daughter wants to be a housewife, she has my blessing. That’s the beauty of real feminism - choice.

Wanting to be a housewife is basically saying "i don't want to work, i just want to be financially supported by a man i'm in a romantic relatiinship with". That sort of relationship is nothing but socially condoned monogamous sex work. I'd be really disapointed if any of my children went that route, and no, I'm not a feminist.

Prostitutes exchange sexual services for money. Housewives make home and raise children. Women who aspire to be housewives just want the best for their families.

There's no such thing as "making home". Making home is just doing chores, like any adult is supposed to. And kids should be raised by both parents, but then again, you're not raising them 24/7, especially if they're going to school and extra-curricular activities.

Feminist women make their own decisions whether you look down on SAHMs or not. Your judgment is useless.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The olds’ hypocrisy of “The man proposes with a diamond ring on bended knee after getting permission from her father” but “I am a proud feminist” simply cannot die off soon enough.

Gag.

Has any of the women here who expects a ring identifiex herself as a feminist?

I don't know how they could. Feminism is about having choices and honoring the choice. Expecting a proposal and an engagement ring is anti-feminist even when it's a role reversal - their expectation is that a man will meet the expectation of gendered role simply because he's male. It's definitely contrary to feminism.

I expected a ring and consider myself a feminist for sure. Feminism is absolutely about a woman’s freedom to live her life the way she chooses, to vote and get an education just as any man could, to be president or a SAHM. It doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the differences between the sexes, both in terms of biology and society. Seems like we disagree on what feminism is.

I don’t care one bit if a woman wants a ring or not, but I do hope in these situations it’s not a woman wanting a ring and going along with not getting one to keep her guy or appear like a cool girl. I particularly love the greenhouse story.

If you consider yourself a feminist, how have you missed the Fourth Wave?

Feminists now recognize that it is not just women that are harmed by women's inequity. Everyone is harm even men. Gendered norms are just as much pillars of toxic masculinity and patriarchy as women's inequity. Expecting a man to propose and give you a ring just because he's a man and you're a woman is a gendered norm.

There is nothing wrong with wanting and asking for something. How a someone responds to a loved one's request is an indication of what kind of partner they will be. Expecting a ring and proposal from a man because you are a woman is no different than a expecting a woman to be responsible all gift giving for her DH's family simply because that's what women are supposed to do. Again, asking is perfectly fine. Expecting something because of gendered norms is not.

I feel like you completely don't understand fourth-wave feminism. You are just talking about equality, not equity. I am glad a lot of us have moved on from "choice feminism," but the idea that we can just switch gender roles to see what's okay and what isn't is poorly lacking in analysis. That's like saying that a woman catcalling a man is as bad as a man catcalling a woman. It sounds nice and tidy but ignores the element of traditional male entitlement to a woman's kindness and attention, as well as the very real physical danger men pose to women. Men and women are not the same because historically we have been treated very differently. In terms of rings, women have been groomed to believe that their worth depends on being married, and so a lot of women will be willing to give way more than they get in order to become and stay married. It's totally reasonable for a woman to say "look, marriage is often a better deal for men than it is for women, and I need to know that you're excited to marry me and commit to me, and to me, part of that is a ring." If a woman doesn't want a ring, then obviously that is fine too (I am not 100% with OP on that).

And in what way are men harmed by a woman refusing to marry without a ring? They might not get to marry that woman? They might have to buy a worse car so they can afford a ring? I can provide in specific detail the harm that comes from a man expecting his wife to take care of the mental load of gift-giving in his family. These are not equivalent.

PP you're responding to. Feminism is not about comparative injustice. We can all acknowledge the disproporationate degree to which women have suffered, been targeted and discriminated against. That doesn't mean it is acceptable to treat men in the way that we have been treated. Wrong is wrong no matter the gender.

It seems you are agreeing with me regarding the ring. There's nothing wrong with a woman asking/wanting/accepting a ring. What's wrong is the expectation of a ring because that's what men get women they want to marry.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph but it appears to be some sort of comparison of effort. It doesn't matter. Wrong is wrong.

There is nothing wrong with this. Nothing.

Just like there's nothing wrong to expect your wife and daughter to be housewives because that's what women do.

If my daughter wants to be a housewife, she has my blessing. That’s the beauty of real feminism - choice.

Wanting to be a housewife is basically saying "i don't want to work, i just want to be financially supported by a man i'm in a romantic relatiinship with". That sort of relationship is nothing but socially condoned monogamous sex work. I'd be really disapointed if any of my children went that route, and no, I'm not a feminist.

PP here. You have described my thoughts on this exactly. I completely agree that a housewife is "is nothing but socially condoned monogamous sex work." I am a mid 40s woman. I always thought that arrangement seemed kind of sick. Even as a kid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The olds’ hypocrisy of “The man proposes with a diamond ring on bended knee after getting permission from her father” but “I am a proud feminist” simply cannot die off soon enough.

Gag.

Has any of the women here who expects a ring identifiex herself as a feminist?

I don't know how they could. Feminism is about having choices and honoring the choice. Expecting a proposal and an engagement ring is anti-feminist even when it's a role reversal - their expectation is that a man will meet the expectation of gendered role simply because he's male. It's definitely contrary to feminism.

I expected a ring and consider myself a feminist for sure. Feminism is absolutely about a woman’s freedom to live her life the way she chooses, to vote and get an education just as any man could, to be president or a SAHM. It doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the differences between the sexes, both in terms of biology and society. Seems like we disagree on what feminism is.

I don’t care one bit if a woman wants a ring or not, but I do hope in these situations it’s not a woman wanting a ring and going along with not getting one to keep her guy or appear like a cool girl. I particularly love the greenhouse story.

If you consider yourself a feminist, how have you missed the Fourth Wave?

Feminists now recognize that it is not just women that are harmed by women's inequity. Everyone is harm even men. Gendered norms are just as much pillars of toxic masculinity and patriarchy as women's inequity. Expecting a man to propose and give you a ring just because he's a man and you're a woman is a gendered norm.

There is nothing wrong with wanting and asking for something. How a someone responds to a loved one's request is an indication of what kind of partner they will be. Expecting a ring and proposal from a man because you are a woman is no different than a expecting a woman to be responsible all gift giving for her DH's family simply because that's what women are supposed to do. Again, asking is perfectly fine. Expecting something because of gendered norms is not.

I feel like you completely don't understand fourth-wave feminism. You are just talking about equality, not equity. I am glad a lot of us have moved on from "choice feminism," but the idea that we can just switch gender roles to see what's okay and what isn't is poorly lacking in analysis. That's like saying that a woman catcalling a man is as bad as a man catcalling a woman. It sounds nice and tidy but ignores the element of traditional male entitlement to a woman's kindness and attention, as well as the very real physical danger men pose to women. Men and women are not the same because historically we have been treated very differently. In terms of rings, women have been groomed to believe that their worth depends on being married, and so a lot of women will be willing to give way more than they get in order to become and stay married. It's totally reasonable for a woman to say "look, marriage is often a better deal for men than it is for women, and I need to know that you're excited to marry me and commit to me, and to me, part of that is a ring." If a woman doesn't want a ring, then obviously that is fine too (I am not 100% with OP on that).

And in what way are men harmed by a woman refusing to marry without a ring? They might not get to marry that woman? They might have to buy a worse car so they can afford a ring? I can provide in specific detail the harm that comes from a man expecting his wife to take care of the mental load of gift-giving in his family. These are not equivalent.

PP you're responding to. Feminism is not about comparative injustice. We can all acknowledge the disproporationate degree to which women have suffered, been targeted and discriminated against. That doesn't mean it is acceptable to treat men in the way that we have been treated. Wrong is wrong no matter the gender.

It seems you are agreeing with me regarding the ring. There's nothing wrong with a woman asking/wanting/accepting a ring. What's wrong is the expectation of a ring because that's what men get women they want to marry.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph but it appears to be some sort of comparison of effort. It doesn't matter. Wrong is wrong.

There is nothing wrong with this. Nothing.

Just like there's nothing wrong to expect your wife and daughter to be housewives because that's what women do.

If my daughter wants to be a housewife, she has my blessing. That’s the beauty of real feminism - choice.

Wanting to be a housewife is basically saying "i don't want to work, i just want to be financially supported by a man i'm in a romantic relatiinship with". That sort of relationship is nothing but socially condoned monogamous sex work. I'd be really disapointed if any of my children went that route, and no, I'm not a feminist.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A ring doesn't guarantee a man will be committed and generous, but it weeds out men who are blasé and stingy.

Divorce statistics do not support your assertion.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Trying to force your opinion onto other women is anti feminist.
I’m not giving up my feminist label because I also wanted an engagement ring. Isn’t going to happen for me, or for the majority of American women outside your fourth wave echo chamber.

OP is the one trying to force her opinion onto others.

Anonymous wrote:Trying to force your opinion onto other women is anti feminist.
I’m not giving up my feminist label because I also wanted an engagement ring. Isn’t going to happen for me, or for the majority of American women outside your fourth wave echo chamber.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I reject your version of feminism that is defined as the abolishment of gender norms.

I don’t have a problem with arbitrary gender norms like skirts or whatever. I have a problem with ones that limit the freedom or dignity of one sex while not doing so for the other.

If men also had to wear engagement rings, I’d have no problem with them. Why should women have to signal they are taken but men don’t? No.

You’re entitled to your opinion about gender norms. I have a problem with women suggesting that other women aren’t feminist because they don’t believe the same way you do. Women should do what they want about engagement rings, but wanting one doesn’t make a person NOT a feminist.

DP. Words have a meaning. Feminism means equality. Expecting someone to give you a gift on the basis of your gender is not feminist. The woman in question might be a feminist but her expectations in this regard are not.

Feminism is advocating for equal legal rights and opportunities. You don’t get to redefine the movement for everyone.

What millenium are you living in? You seem to be stuck in the Second Wave of Feminism. Fourth Wave Feminisists recognize gendered norms for men and women perpetuate inequality. They are harmful to everyone.

You are entitled to your opinion but that’s all it is. I am a feminist whether you are advancing towards a tenth feminism or what have you. And given the sales of engagement rings, I would say most American women are like me and would expect one so your opinion is the minority. You should move on, you aren’t convincing.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The olds’ hypocrisy of “The man proposes with a diamond ring on bended knee after getting permission from her father” but “I am a proud feminist” simply cannot die off soon enough.

Gag.

Has any of the women here who expects a ring identifiex herself as a feminist?

I don't know how they could. Feminism is about having choices and honoring the choice. Expecting a proposal and an engagement ring is anti-feminist even when it's a role reversal - their expectation is that a man will meet the expectation of gendered role simply because he's male. It's definitely contrary to feminism.

I expected a ring and consider myself a feminist for sure. Feminism is absolutely about a woman’s freedom to live her life the way she chooses, to vote and get an education just as any man could, to be president or a SAHM. It doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the differences between the sexes, both in terms of biology and society. Seems like we disagree on what feminism is.

I don’t care one bit if a woman wants a ring or not, but I do hope in these situations it’s not a woman wanting a ring and going along with not getting one to keep her guy or appear like a cool girl. I particularly love the greenhouse story.

If you consider yourself a feminist, how have you missed the Fourth Wave?

Feminists now recognize that it is not just women that are harmed by women's inequity. Everyone is harm even men. Gendered norms are just as much pillars of toxic masculinity and patriarchy as women's inequity. Expecting a man to propose and give you a ring just because he's a man and you're a woman is a gendered norm.

There is nothing wrong with wanting and asking for something. How a someone responds to a loved one's request is an indication of what kind of partner they will be. Expecting a ring and proposal from a man because you are a woman is no different than a expecting a woman to be responsible all gift giving for her DH's family simply because that's what women are supposed to do. Again, asking is perfectly fine. Expecting something because of gendered norms is not.

I feel like you completely don't understand fourth-wave feminism. You are just talking about equality, not equity. I am glad a lot of us have moved on from "choice feminism," but the idea that we can just switch gender roles to see what's okay and what isn't is poorly lacking in analysis. That's like saying that a woman catcalling a man is as bad as a man catcalling a woman. It sounds nice and tidy but ignores the element of traditional male entitlement to a woman's kindness and attention, as well as the very real physical danger men pose to women. Men and women are not the same because historically we have been treated very differently. In terms of rings, women have been groomed to believe that their worth depends on being married, and so a lot of women will be willing to give way more than they get in order to become and stay married. It's totally reasonable for a woman to say "look, marriage is often a better deal for men than it is for women, and I need to know that you're excited to marry me and commit to me, and to me, part of that is a ring." If a woman doesn't want a ring, then obviously that is fine too (I am not 100% with OP on that).

And in what way are men harmed by a woman refusing to marry without a ring? They might not get to marry that woman? They might have to buy a worse car so they can afford a ring? I can provide in specific detail the harm that comes from a man expecting his wife to take care of the mental load of gift-giving in his family. These are not equivalent.

PP you're responding to. Feminism is not about comparative injustice. We can all acknowledge the disproporationate degree to which women have suffered, been targeted and discriminated against. That doesn't mean it is acceptable to treat men in the way that we have been treated. Wrong is wrong no matter the gender.

It seems you are agreeing with me regarding the ring. There's nothing wrong with a woman asking/wanting/accepting a ring. What's wrong is the expectation of a ring because that's what men get women they want to marry.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph but it appears to be some sort of comparison of effort. It doesn't matter. Wrong is wrong.

There is nothing wrong with this. Nothing.

Just like there's nothing wrong to expect your wife and daughter to be housewives because that's what women do.

If my daughter wants to be a housewife, she has my blessing. That’s the beauty of real feminism - choice.

Wanting to be a housewife is basically saying "i don't want to work, i just want to be financially supported by a man i'm in a romantic relatiinship with". That sort of relationship is nothing but socially condoned monogamous sex work. I'd be really disapointed if any of my children went that route, and no, I'm not a feminist.

Prostitutes exchange sexual services for money. Housewives make home and raise children. Women who aspire to be housewives just want the best for their families.

There's no such thing as "making home". Making home is just doing chores, like any adult is supposed to. And kids should be raised by both parents, but then again, you're not raising them 24/7, especially if they're going to school and extra-curricular activities.

Anonymous wrote:OP, I actually often ponder:
Why do women think the tradition of an engagement ring is acceptabe?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I reject your version of feminism that is defined as the abolishment of gender norms.

I don’t have a problem with arbitrary gender norms like skirts or whatever. I have a problem with ones that limit the freedom or dignity of one sex while not doing so for the other.

If men also had to wear engagement rings, I’d have no problem with them. Why should women have to signal they are taken but men don’t? No.

You’re entitled to your opinion about gender norms. I have a problem with women suggesting that other women aren’t feminist because they don’t believe the same way you do. Women should do what they want about engagement rings, but wanting one doesn’t make a person NOT a feminist.

DP. Words have a meaning. Feminism means equality. Expecting someone to give you a gift on the basis of your gender is not feminist. The woman in question might be a feminist but her expectations in this regard are not.

Feminism is advocating for equal legal rights and opportunities. You don’t get to redefine the movement for everyone.

What millenium are you living in? You seem to be stuck in the Second Wave of Feminism. Fourth Wave Feminisists recognize gendered norms for men and women perpetuate inequality. They are harmful to everyone.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The olds’ hypocrisy of “The man proposes with a diamond ring on bended knee after getting permission from her father” but “I am a proud feminist” simply cannot die off soon enough.

Gag.

Has any of the women here who expects a ring identifiex herself as a feminist?

I don't know how they could. Feminism is about having choices and honoring the choice. Expecting a proposal and an engagement ring is anti-feminist even when it's a role reversal - their expectation is that a man will meet the expectation of gendered role simply because he's male. It's definitely contrary to feminism.

I expected a ring and consider myself a feminist for sure. Feminism is absolutely about a woman’s freedom to live her life the way she chooses, to vote and get an education just as any man could, to be president or a SAHM. It doesn’t mean I don’t appreciate the differences between the sexes, both in terms of biology and society. Seems like we disagree on what feminism is.

I don’t care one bit if a woman wants a ring or not, but I do hope in these situations it’s not a woman wanting a ring and going along with not getting one to keep her guy or appear like a cool girl. I particularly love the greenhouse story.

If you consider yourself a feminist, how have you missed the Fourth Wave?

Feminists now recognize that it is not just women that are harmed by women's inequity. Everyone is harm even men. Gendered norms are just as much pillars of toxic masculinity and patriarchy as women's inequity. Expecting a man to propose and give you a ring just because he's a man and you're a woman is a gendered norm.

There is nothing wrong with wanting and asking for something. How a someone responds to a loved one's request is an indication of what kind of partner they will be. Expecting a ring and proposal from a man because you are a woman is no different than a expecting a woman to be responsible all gift giving for her DH's family simply because that's what women are supposed to do. Again, asking is perfectly fine. Expecting something because of gendered norms is not.

I feel like you completely don't understand fourth-wave feminism. You are just talking about equality, not equity. I am glad a lot of us have moved on from "choice feminism," but the idea that we can just switch gender roles to see what's okay and what isn't is poorly lacking in analysis. That's like saying that a woman catcalling a man is as bad as a man catcalling a woman. It sounds nice and tidy but ignores the element of traditional male entitlement to a woman's kindness and attention, as well as the very real physical danger men pose to women. Men and women are not the same because historically we have been treated very differently. In terms of rings, women have been groomed to believe that their worth depends on being married, and so a lot of women will be willing to give way more than they get in order to become and stay married. It's totally reasonable for a woman to say "look, marriage is often a better deal for men than it is for women, and I need to know that you're excited to marry me and commit to me, and to me, part of that is a ring." If a woman doesn't want a ring, then obviously that is fine too (I am not 100% with OP on that).

And in what way are men harmed by a woman refusing to marry without a ring? They might not get to marry that woman? They might have to buy a worse car so they can afford a ring? I can provide in specific detail the harm that comes from a man expecting his wife to take care of the mental load of gift-giving in his family. These are not equivalent.

PP you're responding to. Feminism is not about comparative injustice. We can all acknowledge the disproporationate degree to which women have suffered, been targeted and discriminated against. That doesn't mean it is acceptable to treat men in the way that we have been treated. Wrong is wrong no matter the gender.

It seems you are agreeing with me regarding the ring. There's nothing wrong with a woman asking/wanting/accepting a ring. What's wrong is the expectation of a ring because that's what men get women they want to marry.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in your last paragraph but it appears to be some sort of comparison of effort. It doesn't matter. Wrong is wrong.

There is nothing wrong with this. Nothing.

Just like there's nothing wrong to expect your wife and daughter to be housewives because that's what women do.

If my daughter wants to be a housewife, she has my blessing. That’s the beauty of real feminism - choice.

Wanting to be a housewife is basically saying "i don't want to work, i just want to be financially supported by a man i'm in a romantic relatiinship with". That sort of relationship is nothing but socially condoned monogamous sex work. I'd be really disapointed if any of my children went that route, and no, I'm not a feminist.

Prostitutes exchange sexual services for money. Housewives make home and raise children. Women who aspire to be housewives just want the best for their families.